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Does the Russian Tor-M1 render most of the USAF worthless?

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posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 04:43 AM
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Not unless it attacks nations or alliances with the same general resources and technological ability. One can not argue that air defense does not work ( it worked for the Germans until they were overcome by united resource bases of their enemies) based on the pemise that insignificant third world countries did not have the economic potential to deploy the same resources in air defenses as the US deployed in air force infrastructure.

Exactly. I made little calculations, and with the US airforce budget, Iran would be able to buy 800 S-300 PMU-2 batteries... enough to wipe out everything hostile in the sky all across the country.

And ape, Russia also have stealth nuclear missiles, the Kh-55SM.

And please explain me what is great with passive triangulation. (I'm a noob on weapons, but I find it very interesting)

And the US would only win a war because of overwhelming bombing.

And for the AGM-129A, they surely have more than 500, they gonna use them against Iran, so they must have more in stock.

[edit on 8-2-2007 by Vitchilo]




posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 04:48 AM
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Originally posted by gone_wrong
vK_man: finally, someone who makes some sense


I agree, stealth technology is waay overrated as nothing is undetectable. This was proven by the Yugoslavians when they took that f117 down with nothing but well trained men and outdated radar/missile systems. Hurts, doesnt it?
Funny how those stealth AGMs is the only argument hate peddlers like Ape can come up with. Maybe they should consider the C-400 Triumph (the C-300 successor) designed specifically against targets with low radar signatures. And this is just the beginning. Unfortunately, technology does not stand and wait till dusk when a nighthawk can come and bite it in its arse


[edit on 7-2-2007 by gone_wrong]


thank you and there are unconfirmed rumours that s-400 uses passive triangulation , well , acc. to colonel krutov , they have been researching on passive triangulation since late 70's ,


urmomma posted:
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Cellphone towers, by contrast, put out only tens of watts, and in all directions, more like a household lightbulb. Like ripples on a pond, the radio waves lose energy as they spread, and they scatter farther when they hit a target, so the signal at the receiver is weak. Although TV and FM radio signals are stronger than those from cellphones, they are still much weaker than those emitted by a focused radar transmitter
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first time , a slight mistake in your article on cellphone radar towers ,microwaves are unidirectional in nature and not omnidirectional like radars,




Yup, the longer wavelenght passes easier through clouds and even through wooden walls, (with all the consequences of privacy invasion).

The mm wave imaging receivers got great boost thist last 2 decades(initially in USSR and then west also), so nowdays they easily detect extremly faint natural termal radiation. Science uses this wavelenghts to measure thermal radiation of very cold objects, like for instance the Cosmic Microwave Background cold as low as 4 degree above the absolute zero. A hot aircraft lights is like a sun, compared to that, andd US "stealth"




And please explain me what is great with passive triangulation

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1)passive radiolocation, i.e., the absence of the radar’s own radiation, radically reduced the disadvantage of insufficient secrecy

2)an attacking object detected by a passive radar is never aware of its detection
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combined possibly with microwave towers , lethality of such systems could further be enhanced as it is difficult to break a low frequency micro wave lock unleess it carries ,bolt on plasma generator that successfully ,projects similiar level of radiational energy ,from a distance , as it could possibly act as a decoy , kh-102 (whch has marabu plasma is rumoured of such capability)


And for the AGM-129A, they surely have more than 500, they gonna use them against Iran, so they must have more in stock


no they have more than 5000 tomahawk missiles ...

[edit on 8-2-2007 by vK_man]


[edit on 8-2-2007 by vK_man]


[edit on 8-2-2007 by vK_man]

[edit on 8-2-2007 by vK_man]



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 05:20 AM
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no they have more than 5000 tomahawk missiles ...

Yeah, but I was talking about nuclear ones, or AGM-129a precisely. A normal tomahawk can be nuclear? Anyway.

IMO, ape, the only way the US can defeat Russia and China without being wiped out after in a nuclear war is to get stealth nuclear scramjet cruise missiles (before Russia got them) and a good missile shield.

Then you can ``pre-emptive`` strike them but that would mean billions dying and international outcry or alliance against the US.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 05:59 AM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo



no they have more than 5000 tomahawk missiles ...

Yeah, but I was talking about nuclear ones, or AGM-129a precisely. A normal tomahawk can be nuclear? Anyway.

.

Then you can ``pre-emptive`` strike them but that would mean billions dying and international outcry or alliance against the US.





IMO, ape, the only way the US can defeat Russia and China without being wiped out after in a nuclear war is to get stealth nuclear scramjet cruise missiles (before Russia got them) and a good missile shield


russia has hypersonic cruise missiiles like kh-90 , but abandoned it as it was too expensive for them ... though some people do think that they may be deployed in future...

america has mach 12 aircraft like falcon,aurora and is researching on hypersonic crusie missiles:
www.popularmechanics.com...

hers a link



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by vK_man

Originally posted by Vitchilo



no they have more than 5000 tomahawk missiles ...

Yeah, but I was talking about nuclear ones, or AGM-129a precisely. A normal tomahawk can be nuclear? Anyway.

.

Then you can ``pre-emptive`` strike them but that would mean billions dying and international outcry or alliance against the US.






IMO, ape, the only way the US can defeat Russia and China without being wiped out after in a nuclear war is to get stealth nuclear scramjet cruise missiles (before Russia got them) and a good missile shield


russia has hypersonic cruise missiiles like kh-90 , but abandoned it as it was too expensive for them ... though some people do think that they may be deployed in future...

america has mach 12 aircraft like falcon,aurora and is researching on hypersonic crusie missiles:
www.popularmechanics.com...

hers a link


This is all completely unconfirmed. (the part about mach 12 aircraft)

[edit on 8-2-2007 by BlackWidow23]



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by ape
oh so now the .ru people are telling me the agm-129a stealth ACM cannot penetrate russia? read some info about the 129a before discarding it and saying stealth tech is obsolete


Noone ever said that stealth is obsolete. It would be pretty stupid to think so. In fact, the agm-129a probably can penetrate Russian defences at this time. The point everyone is trying to get across to you (and you would have got it by now if you werent too ignorant to listen) is that stealth tech is not the hyped up magic-superweapon-to-end-all-wars everyone claims it to be. It has very limited applications, and CAN be detected under the right conditions. And as ive said, technology does not stand and anti-stealth equipment is being conceived, developed, and tested as we speak. It might not be as effective as some would like it to be at this moment, but its a start.


Originally posted by ape
bringing up kosovo to justify your opinion about stealth tech is just pathetic.

How is that pathetic? An argument like any other. If you have a better one, lets hear it.


Originally posted by ape
I wonder what you .ru folks will say when the tor-1 is taken out by the USAF or israel by other means instead of 129a's when iran finally gets hit.


Im sure it will be. Like any other weapon its whole purpose is to destroy and be destroyed. The question is how many targets will IT kill before its eventual demise. But whats the use of arguing anyway? Well just have to wait and see..

[edit on 8-2-2007 by gone_wrong]



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 11:38 AM
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Originally posted by Vitchilo
Yeah, but I was talking about nuclear ones, or AGM-129a precisely. A normal tomahawk can be nuclear? Anyway.


are you implying that America will nuke Iran? Do you realise what kind of consequences that would bring



Originally posted by Vitchilo
IMO, ape, the only way the US can defeat Russia and China without being wiped out after in a nuclear war is to get stealth nuclear scramjet cruise missiles (before Russia got them) and a good missile shield.


There has been speculation about the Topol M having scramjet capabilities due to its sheer speed at the latest test launch.

LINK 1
LINK 2
WHAT THE RUSSIANS SAID



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 03:19 PM
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are you implying that America will nuke Iran? Do you realise what kind of consequences that would bring

Yes i'm implying the US will nuke Iran. Why? Because it's the only way to level Iran without being leveled and without a lot of troops. And because the army changed the status of nuclear bunker buster from nuclear weapons to conventional weapons.



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 05:10 PM
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Originally posted by vK_man



the problem is th accuracy.... that could be partially
solved (in case radrs are longe wave) by use of neutron or nuclear SAM's ,though its dangerous and a short term fix solution ...
Indeed.... remeber a nuke detonated at that altitude will cause problems with your own defenses such as your wired copper cables and corrput communication links. Lets take nuclear ABm weapons into context here. The Sprint with a warhead of 1kt destroys warheads ina radius measured in a few feet. No wif we use 550kt warheads which have a larger killing radius of about a mile.No one uses such high yield nukes at sucha low altitude. Longwave radars which can detect stealth AC have an accuracy measured in a few miles. We need to take into account that long wave radars are juicy targets since they're so immobile.You yourself stated the Us has 5000 tomahawks. Remember those longwave radrs willbe targeted well outside the ranges of your SAM defenses. We also need to take into account a retaliatory nculear strike


the long term solution , could be use of microwave towers in roaming mode or passive radars
Microwave towers need to be moved around however those vehicles move ata speed of about 35mph while inthe invader will come in at high subsonic or supercruise speed. Also we need to take into account munitions likE LOCAAS,MALD,JASSM,JSOW.SMACM etc. The enemy will also be using GMTI and SIGINT/ELINT etc. your scenario is tactic not a pancea.
problems of mobile targets discussed here

www.analysiscenter.northropgrumman.com...
www.analysiscenter.northropgrumman.com...
those two articles show the basics and requirments

lasers can alos be used to attack sensors and you really dont need magawatt class beams to disable sensors.

www.analysiscenter.northropgrumman.com...





we are not talking subs ....


If the sensor performs poorly against large(more size=greater MAD range and comparatively slow objects how will it fare agaisnt smaller and faster targets using standoff weapons.


anyways, there is a book that is about the cold war and russian captians say something else , i recommend you read and it may change your belief on MAD ,
www.amazon.com...


It's a god localization tool for subs but not a long range search solution


To reduce interference from electrical equipment aboard anti-submarine aircraft the 'MAD head' is placed out from the aircraft on a boom or is a towed aerodynamic device. Even so the submarine must be very near the aircraft's position (and close to the sea surface) to detect the change or anomaly. The detection range is normally related to the distance between the sensor and the submarine. The size of the submarine, its orientation in the Earth's magnetic field, and its hull material composition also determines the detection range. MAD devices are usually mounted on aircraft.

en.wikipedia.org...





on passive radars:


When the newly independent Ukraine that had only just survived a severe economic crisis, developed an advanced passive radiolocation complex, it was a severe blow to the Americans, who were so sure of their domination in the air thanks to their stealth planes. On the one hand, the advantages of the attacker’s “invisibility” were reduced to zero. On the other, passive radiolocation, i.e., the absence of the radar’s own radiation, radically reduced the disadvantage of insufficient secrecy. Besides, an attacking object detected by a passive radar is never aware of its detection and so has no reasons to activate its own defenses. It means that the most important advantage is now in the hands of the air defense, especially considering the impression produced on experts by the latest Kolchuga modification.

- A complex consisting of three Kolchuga radar stations makes it possible to spot ground and surface targets and trace their movement within a radius of 600 km (air targets at the 10 km altitude - up to 800 km), which makes an effective early warning air defense system;

- The Kolchuga station is equipped with five meter-, decimeter-, and centimeter-range aerials, which provide for high radio sensitivity within a 110dB/W - 155 dB/W swath, depending on the frequency;

- A parallel 36-channel preset receiver makes it possible to spot instantly, identify, and classify signals from any source with unlimited input density within the entire frequency range from 130MHz to 18,000MHz;

- All radio objects are spotted and identified automatically, a powerful computer digitizing and identifying targets by comparing their parameters with the available databank, results being shown on a field display;

- Special inhibitory sorters omit up to 24 interfering signals, and tracking sorters make it possible to synchronously sort out and track signals from 32 targets;

- All normal operations require only one operator (two other operators work on a shift basis for 24-hour duty), who controls the station through dialog with a PC.

Since the whole U.S. non-nuclear military power hinges on stealth technologies, the prospect of worldwide proliferation of the unique Ukrainian radar systems definitely runs counter to U.S. interests. They were first demonstrated at the SOFEX-2000 arms expo in Jordan. That is, probably, why such close interest, especially from the United States, catalyzed the notorious “Kolchuga scandal”.

The Ukrainian scientific, engineering, and design solutions in the field of passive radiolocation, embodied in the Kolchuga complex, are what is eating U.S. designers and government functionaries, who are responsible for stealth technologies in modern armaments. Such technologies are meant to fulfill every general’s dream: to make his aircraft, ships, tanks, and other hardware invisible to enemies. The geometrical shape may be changed (like in the F-117 or B-2) to disperse a reflected signal from active radars, or there may be various wave-absorbing coatings to transform active signals into heat energy. But no modern military aircraft, tank, or ship can exist without its own radar. Without a radiating aerial it is simply “blind”.


LOL the F117 uises no radar and can perform just fine. New radar techniques are being developed to reduce interference.Tell me what tank uses radar that your article speaks of. Are youa ctually going to read your article or are you going to just blindly psot articles that you agree with.


A low probabililty of intercept radar (LPIR) is designed to be difficult to detect by passive radar detection equipment (such as a radar warning receiver - RWR) while it is searching for or tracking a target. This characteristic is desirable because it allows finding and tracking an opponent without alerting them to the radar's presence.

Ways of reducing the profile of a radar include using wider frequency bandwidth (wideband), frequency hopping, using a frequency-modulated continuous-wave signal, and using only the minimum power required for the task. Using pulse compression also reduces the probability of detection, since the peak transmitted power is lower while the range and resolution is the same.

en.wikipedia.org...



[edit on 8-2-2007 by urmomma158]



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 05:12 PM
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continued.......


The AN/APG-77 radar is the F-22's primary sensor and is a long-range, rapid-scan, and multi-functional system. A Northrop Grumman-led joint venture with Raytheon is developing the active-element electronically scanned array radar. Northrop Grumman is also responsible for the radar sensor design, software, and systems integration.

The AN/APG-77 radar is an active-element, electronically scanned (that is, it does not move) array that features a separate transmitter and receiver for each of the antenna's several thousand, finger-sized radiating elements. Most of the mechanical parts common to other radars have been eliminated, thus making the radar more reliable. This type of antenna, which is integrated both physically and electromagnetically with the airframe, provides the frequency agility, low radar cross-section, and wide bandwidth necessary to support the F-22's air dominance mission. The radar is key to the F-22's integrated avionics and sensor capabilities. It will provide pilots with detailed information about multiple threats before the adversary's radar ever detects the F-22.

The AN/APG-77 radar a novel type of electronically scanned phased array. In what is likely to be the most advanced airborne radar in the world, individual transmit and receive modules are located behind each element of the radar array. The transmit function of the solid-state microwave modules supplants the traveling wave tubes used in prior radars like the APQ-164. The active, electronically scanned array (ESA) configuration has a wider transmit bandwidth while requiring significantly less volume and prime power. The system represents about half the weight of an equivalent passive ESA design. Each of the hundreds of individual solid-state devices generates only small amounts of power, but the aggregate for the entire array is substantial.

The F-22 s APG-77 electronically scanned array antenna is composed of several thousand transmit/receive modules, circulators, radiators and manifolds assembled into subarrays and then integrated into a complete array. The baseline design used thousands of hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects to make the numerous radio frequency, digital, and direct current connections between the components and manifolds that make up the subarray. Northrop Grumman Corporation, of Baltimore, MD, has developed an improved manufacturing process for F-22 aircraft radar components. The new process could result in a cost avoidance of nearly $87 million on the planned production run for the aircraft. By replacing the hand-soldered flex circuit interconnects with automated ribbon bond interconnects, the first pass yield of the subarray assembly has been vastly improved.

The AN/APG-77 radar antenna is a elliptical, active electronically scanned antenna array of 2000 transmitter/receive modules which provides agility, low radar cross section and wide bandwidth. The radar is able to sweep 120 degrees of airspace instantaneously. In comparison to the F-15 Strike Eagle's APG-70 radar takes 14 seconds to scan that amount of airspace. The APG-77 is capable of performing this feat by electronically forming multiple radar beams to rapidly search the airspace.

The system exhibits a very low radar cross section, supporting the F-22's stealthy design. Reliability of the all-solid-state system is expected to be substantially better than the already highly reliable F-16 radar, with MTBF predicted at more than 450 hours.

The APG-77 radar offers significant advantages over previous combat radars. Among its most attractive benefits is the integration of agile beam steering. This feature allows a single APG-77 radar to carry out multiple functions, such as searching, tracking, and engaging targets simultaneously. Agile beam steering also enables the radar to concurrently search multiple portions of airspace, while allowing continued tracking of priority targets.

The Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability of the radar defeats conventional RWR/ESM systems. The AN/APG-77 radar is capable of performing an active radar search on RWR/ESM equipped fighter aircraft without the target knowing he is being illuminated. Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN/APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar's signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as a conventional radar, but because each LPI pulse has considerably less amount of energy and may not fit normal modulation patterns, the target will have a difficult time detecting the F-22.

The F-22 and its APG-77 radar will also be able to employ better Non-Cooperative Target Recognition (NCTR). This is accomplished by forming fine beams and by generating a high resolution image of the target by using Inverse Synthetic Aperture radar (ISAR) processing. ISAR uses Doppler shifts caused by rotational changes in the targets position to create a 3D map of the target. The target provides the Doppler shift and not the aircraft illuminating the target. SAR is when the aircraft provides the Doppler shift. The pilot can compare the target with an actual picture radar image stored in the F-22's data base.



The Hughes-built Common Integrated Processor (CIP) serve as the "brains" for the F-22's totally integrated avionics system. CIPs are the central, networked computers that enable the integration of radar, electronic warfare, and identification sensor data, as well as communication, navigation, weapon, and systems status data into coherent, fused information for communication to the pilot via multi-function displays. Rather than radar, the electronic warfare system, and the electronic warfare system having individual processors, the CIP supports all signal and data processing for all sensors and mission avionics.

The CIP modules have the ability to emulate any of the electronic functions through automatic reprogramming. For example, if the CIP module that is acting as radio dies, one of the other modules will automatically reload the radio program and take over the radio function. This approach to avionics makes the equipment extremely tolerant to combat damage as well as flexible from a design upgrade point of view.

There are two CIPs in each F-22, with 66 module slots per CIP. The CIPs (which is quite literally the size of a oversized bread box) are liquid cooled avionics racks containing both signal processing and data processing modules inserted into common backplane. They have identical backplanes, and all of the F-22's processing requirements can be handled by only seven different types of processors. There are 33 signal processors and 43 data processors interconnected via a fault-tolerant network. Each processing element is manufactured and packaged as an approximately 6x7x3/8ths inch line replaceable module (LRM) for ease of flightline maintenance.

Each module is limited by design to only 75 percent of its capability, so the F-22 has 30 percent growth capability with no change to the existing equipment. Currently, 19 of 66 slots in CIP 1 and 22 of 66 slots in CIP 2 are not populated and are available for growth. There is space, power and cooling provisions in the aircraft for a third CIP, so the requirement for a 200 percent avionics growth capability in the F-22 can be easily met. There is coordinated plan for technology growth that will help keep the CIP at state-of-the-art levels. As electronics continue to get smaller and more powerful, it is conceivable that there could be 300 percent increase in avionics capability.

www.globalsecurity.org...



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 05:28 PM
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www.raytheon.com...
www.raytheon.com...


www.f22totalairwar.de...

above link is too get an idea how little each module puts out. It has 1500-2000 modules each transmitting only a few waatts however the beams are highly focused and the return from each si combined so its jus tlike using 1 high powered beams.

a 4w power output,a very lare time bandwidth product,pulse compression,foucsed mainlobes,extrrmely low sidelobes, and complex search ptters significantly reduce the detection range of passive ESM systems.
F 15 's have gone up agaisnt it and not even seen it, same with AWACS.
The Russian products don't match the US's in computing power and the F 22 can take advantage of moores law just like the AN/BQQ 10.


"In the Raptor, "I can outmaneuver an F-16, F-15, F-18. It doesn't matter..." [and] the F-22's radar works in a way that allows him to use it without revealing himself. Though its exact workings are classified, the F-22 is known to emit radar signals in extremely short bursts over multiple frequencies.

www.defenseindustrydaily.com...



With the APG-77, the F-22 will be able to detect an enemy aircraft's radar from distances of up to 460 kilometers (250 nautical miles). It will be able to acquire an enemy aircraft with radar at distances of up to 220 kilometers (125 nautical miles), while its ""low probability of intercept"" radar signal will be very difficult to detect and the ""stealthy"" F-22 will remain invisible to the enemy's radar.

www.airtoaircombat.com...


The F-22's avionics were designed to allow a single crewman to perform missions traditionally reserved for two-seat aircraft. The secure datalink system is particularly important, allowing combat integration between multiple F-22s or other types of NATO fighter and attack aircraft, between F-22s and an Airborne Warning & Control System (AWACS) aircraft, or one-way data downloads from reconnaissance platforms.

www.airtoaircombat.com...

Biger AC=more computing power=better LPI and lets not forget the US advanatge in computing power.

Also take into account standoff platforms using their radars instead and more us of IRST/FLIR etc.

listen go to www.worldaffairsboard.com and brush up on some stuff I know some popel that specifically work inthe electronics and radar biz on that forum so plz register and learn some more.


The detection range is one of the best in its class, but it is highly dependent on the emitted power of the transmitter being tracked, and requires satisfaction of the line of sight condition to at least two receiving sites for triangulation (compared with three sites for a multilateration system such as the VERA passive sensor). A Kolchuga complex can detect and locate air and surface targets and trace their movement to a range generally limited only by the common line-of-sight of the stations. Assuming no terrain masking, the line-of-sight range of a single Kolchuga station (in km) is approximately (Skolnik 1981):

en.wikipedia.org...

ESM is highly depndant on power of the signal if it's very low don't expecta long range detection


Mercury sats are much better than Kolchuga


The MERCURY signals intelligence spacecraft are designed to intercept transmissions from broadcast communications systems such as radios, as well as radars and other electronic systems. The interception of such transmissions can provide information on the type and location of even low power transmitters, such as hand-held radios. The MERCURY [Advanced VORTEX] spacecraft is believed to be built by Hughes, and to utilize a much larger military version of the special antenna that will be used on the commercial APMT mobile communications system.

www.globalsecurity.org...

www.globalsecurity.org...

www.globalsecurity.org...

[edit on 8-2-2007 by urmomma158]



posted on Feb, 8 2007 @ 11:24 PM
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Yeah, that makes sense. The US spends billions of dollars on their airforce and this one missle launcher makes it obsoleate and worthless.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 04:58 AM
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The Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability of the radar defeats conventional RWR/ESM systems. The AN/APG-77 radar is capable of performing an active radar search on RWR/ESM equipped fighter aircraft without the target knowing he is being illuminated. Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN/APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar's signal processor combines the signals

apg-77 is designed to be resistant against first generation sys like czech vera
as this proveds the stealth craft need radar ..... and yes kochulga acc. to some ukrainan sources IS A HYBRID OF ALL.... NOT WHAT WESTERN SOURCES STATE i.e ESM i mean above ESM , though technically its beleived to be combination of ESM, IR and microwave systems ......
active radars against passive ones ,means that passive systems will detect the active radiolocation echo(radio waves are omnidirectional), though low freq detection is difficult to detect , but kochulga is
also the kochulga system can detect the energy emissions(active radar ,infrared thermal emissions etc...



The Kolchuga is intended to detect the take-off and formation of aircraft groups at ranges beyond those of existing radar, as well as determine the course and speed of targets while designating them for air-defence systems. It can identify aerial targets through their emissions and identify the mode of aircraft weapon control systems
www.hi-tech.org.ua...


though a difficult processs,The athmosperic opacity is quite good in the mm wave range at any athmosperic conditions. Actually at this wave range the US wooden and walls are transparent too, so some can observe Bush chocking on a pretzel, heh, heh, heh, thanks to infrared thermal signature

12-50 uM are standard equipment on any spy satellite, , but unfortunatelly this wave range is sensitive to the athmosperic opacity due to water vapor and other contaminants. That's why military imaging mm wave systems were developed recently this past decade, to deal with the shorcommings of the athmospheric transmission




listen go to www.worldaffairsboard.com and brush up on some stuff I know some popel that specifically work inthe electronics and radar biz on that forum so plz register and learn some more.

yeah

like the claims of highsea , , my recommendation is that go ask Adrian or Dazietz on warfare.ru or kolzene on technocracy .ca on why B-2 is far better than f-22 and f-22 is a hype) or on kochulga and vega, ivan krutov(a former soviet military scientist and officer)
this place worldaffairs though it has some people with relation to electronics and cybernetics (you will find similiar people on the technocracy section of politics forum .org, i was a former member there, i left it ).... i do not recommend it .... i have been there as a guest to see threads ...
in acc. to certain reports B-2 has lower thermal emissions and RCS than F-22 , F-117 .... which increases survivability of b-2 , though it can be detected when it opens its bomb doors

[edit on 9-2-2007 by vK_man]

[edit on 9-2-2007 by vK_man]

[edit on 9-2-2007 by vK_man]

[edit on 9-2-2007 by vK_man]



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 05:28 AM
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The Sprint with a warhead of 1kt destroys warheads ina radius measured in a few feet.


what you state is at ground level and in air it is highly effective as it would create a massive shockwave around a certain region thus knocking out anything that is flying within 200-300 metres with the shockwave as it will destroy the aerodynamic conditions around the craft , you could use fas nuclear blast calculator for nuke air burst calculation ... its effective , but i agree it would have bad effect on command centers ....




lasers can alos be used to attack sensors and you really dont need magawatt class beams to disable sensors


microwave detectors are not easy to disable , these sensors are used to research on fusion, and determine behaviur of magnetic fields of the sun and high energy solar storms ... also these are on the lowest end of the electromagnetic spectrum ..




Longwave radars which can detect stealth AC have an accuracy measured in a few miles.

in my opinion the capability of longe wave is underestimated against stealth aircraft(hint f-117 shot down) , but its useless against super manuverable aircraft like f-18,mig-29 as these can break longe wave radar locks with ease....



Also we need to take into account munitions likE LOCAAS,MALD,JASSM,JSOW.SMACM etc. The enemy will also be using GMTI and SIGINT/ELINT etc. your scenario is tactic not a pancea.


thats known that usa will be throwing JASSM and other SRAM in loads and even UAV 's to destroy missile batteries ...as usa will throw everything like hell, and a limited number of passive radar or microwave systems cannot stand for long ....






LOL the F117 uises no radar and can perform just fine. New radar techniques are being developed to reduce interference.Tell me what tank uses radar that your article speaks of. Are youa ctually going to read your article or are you going to just blindly psot articles that you agree with.


moron, what is tor-m1 , or buk -m1 , its a anti-air missile launcher on a
t-72 tank chassis .....




blindly psot articles that you agree with.

again , i read this article 2 months ago, this system is far more effective than the vera or vega passive system , i have given the stats already
again , the communist bloc were researching on passive radar detection since the late 70's ,particularly to neutralise subsonic cruise missiles acc. to colonel krutov..




Using pulse compression also reduces the probability of detection, since the peak transmitted power is lower while the range and resolution is the same

pulse compression involves phase modulation
such a transmition could prove to be a boon to microwave sensors if combined with passive radars in intercepting..... but if the desired targets carries effective jammers to create multiple microwave frequenceies around the craft(similiar to those the aircraft generates in the microwave spectrum) , thus creating decoys for such a system



"In the Raptor, "I can outmaneuver an F-16, F-15, F-18. It doesn't matter..." [and] the F-22's radar works in a way that allows him to use it without revealing himself. Though its exact workings are classified, the F-22 is known to emit radar signals in extremely short bursts over multiple frequencies.


even neutron stars emit short gamma bursts over multiple frequenceis and cosmic microwave systems detect them .... currently the use of microwaves ... i.e microwave systems are the future of the global military


[edit on 9-2-2007 by vK_man]

[edit on 9-2-2007 by vK_man]



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by urmomma158
LOL the F117 uises no radar and can perform just fine.

Hmm thats what i thought too. Neither the Kolchuga nor the Vera will detect much unless the pilot accidentally turns on his radar during the mission lol.
Though like vK_man said, coupling those systems with radar emmiters might actually work.



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 01:42 PM
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Originally posted by gone_wrong

Originally posted by urmomma158
LOL the F117 uises no radar and can perform just fine.

Hmm thats what i thought too. Neither the Kolchuga nor the Vera will detect much unless the pilot accidentally turns on his radar during the mission lol.
Though like vK_man said, coupling those systems with radar emmiters might actually work.



slight mistake the kochulga can detect emission trail of the aircraft ,

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The Kolchuga is intended to detect the take-off and formation of aircraft groups at ranges beyond those of existing radar, as well as determine the course and speed of targets while designating them for air-defence systems. It can identify aerial targets through their emissions and identify the mode of aircraft weapon control systems
www.hi-tech.org.ua...

-----------


Though like vK_man said, coupling those systems with radar emmiters might actually work

and i think you meant microwave sensors not radar emitters


[edit on 9-2-2007 by vK_man]



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by vK_man
slight mistake the kochulga can detect emission trail of the aircraft

what kind of emissions? other than radar i mean


Originally posted by vK_man
and i think you meant microwave sensors not radar emitters

i meant whatever the system picks up on. sorry, im no expert: i was under the impression it was radar waves

"One of the subjective reasons, to a certain extent, is the fact that representatives of the defense industry tend to conceal their achievements, which sometimes only become known to the general public for political considerations. Information about new weapons and their technical capacities is disclosed only when it appears expedient in terms of psychological influence on personnel or potential enemies." Goes for Russia as well.

Nice article. I liked the detailed tech specs, even though i didnt understand much
Apparently Kolchuga is the best system of its kind. The authors take on the countrys economy was quite true too. Myself being half Ukrainian (and the soviet haters are gonna love this one), i can tell



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 07:27 PM
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Oh, and if the Kolchuga somehow works with the Russian S-400 as rumored, i suspect (IMO) it could be the beginning of the end for stealth tech at its present state.



[edit on 9-2-2007 by gone_wrong]


ape

posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 08:26 PM
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by gone wrong
How is that pathetic? An argument like any other. If you have a better one, lets hear it.


easy, pilot error. ever heard of it? of course just because it happened to be shot down means stealth tech is way overrated in your opinion right?

the 129a was brought up because stellarX started running his mouth piece about nuclear war and how russias defenses were inpregnable. now that the cold war is over it is said they have converted many 129a's to conventional b's. but this is sensitive information.

the US will make ICBM's obsolete anyways and you can see this on the discovery channel every monday night, what program does russia have to display it's tech? oh yeah they can't even afford to invest in such weaponry. yeah russian ABM tech is really going to be in high demand once DEW and THAAD takes over. russia should just give up and invest in their domestic infrastructure. the US wins, everyone give up soon you wont be able to lob missiles.

my ultimate dream is having US deployed DEW and THAAD all over the world protecting her allies and basically crushing the moral of every dictator or commie out there who thinks they have parity because they have ICBMS or any kind of missile for that matter, hopefully this will make certain countries disarm and move towards peace.




[edit on 9-2-2007 by ape]



posted on Feb, 9 2007 @ 09:52 PM
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Originally posted by ape
easy, pilot error. ever heard of it? of course just because it happened to be shot down means stealth tech is way overrated in your opinion right?

Tell me, what kind of error can a pilot possibly make in an allegedly invisible craft to be effectively located and shot down? Turn on his lights, radar, whateverelsehesgot, and scream HERE I AM!! repeatedly on the air
Granted, he could have just crashed into the ground or something, but after all the training they put them through that would seem just stupid..


Originally posted by ape
the US will make ICBM's obsolete anyways and you can see this on the discovery channel every monday night

Sorry, but my monday nights were exclusively reserved for football up till Feb. 4th
Are you referring to the laser technology America is developing? If so, the Russians have been armoring their ICBMs against air and space deployed lasers for quite a while now. If im not mistaken, since the R-36 Voevoda (which also happens to be the biggest and heaviest ICBM in the world, wonder why?). By the way, the NATO classification of this missile is SS-18 SATAN, and that alone should tell you something.


Originally posted by ape
what program does russia have to display it's tech? oh yeah they can't even afford to invest in such weaponry.


Russians have been notorious for developing amazing weaponry (among other things) in spite of their constant lack of resources in the ways of money, equipment, and technical personnel. If they can make things like Topol-M under these conditions, i can only take my hat off to them



Originally posted by ape
my ultimate dream is having US deployed DEW and THAAD all over the world protecting her allies and basically crushing the moral of every dictator or commie out there who thinks they have parity because they have ICBMS or any kind of missile for that matter, hopefully this will make certain countries disarm and move towards peace.

I wont even comment on that, your statement speaks for itself. Just answer one simple question for me: the road to hell is paved with what?



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