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Does the future belong to China or Europe?

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posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 03:13 AM
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I could imagine a more sharply defined English speaking or Anglo-saxon commonwealth emerging at some point being made up of the US, Canada Australia, New Zealand and the UK but I wonder wether the UK will continue to prevaricate between this conglomerate and union with Europe.

I think the main super power will be Europe in the decades to come.




posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 04:27 AM
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are you insane? the future belongs to canada, clearly the most civilized country.

and our rocky mountain police can open a can of woop arse anyday.



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Considering that China has 1.6 billion of the earth's population, I think that there rise to power is rather a foregone conclusion. There is no real way around it.


There can only be one way now.

America starts to produce a bumper crop of scientists and engineers and we innovate. We innovate, 'LIKE THERE IS NO TOMMAROW'. We start to innovate everything that is benifical to the human race.

And we do that because, 'THERE REALLY IS NO TOMMARROW'. We're all gonna die.

Just imagine 1.6 billion chinese driving SUV's, eating Bic Macs and swearing alligance to Mammon and Mars.

We gotta invent, and we gotta do it now, with no limitations. The only other sensible alternative is the self annaliation of the human race. The dolphins and cockroaches will appreciate that.

[edit on 15-12-2006 by In nothing we trust]



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 06:07 AM
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The future belongs to those who pump out the babies the fastest and who are the most militant, taking what it wants.

The future belongs to radical Islam.



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 08:01 AM
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Hi everyone,

This is actually my first post, but I've been lurking around ATS for a long while.

Anyway, I agree with FlyersFan. Don't discount radical islam. It is a scary movement that captures a large piece of this earth.

That's why I am in support of confronting it now. Do we wan't radical islam to be a major part of our future?



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 11:33 AM
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I think the only way we stay on top is if we can force the world to continue to buy oil in dollars. That is the only reason we went into Iraq. If you look back Sadam decided to start trading oil in Euros and right after that we went in. Now Iraq is once again selling in dollars. There was an EU economic relief fund setup in Euros and once we took over that was deposited into a dollar account and converted to dollars.

Selling oil in dollars is about to end. Iran is changing to Euros. Russia is considering it along with several other countries. Once that happens we are finished as a super power. All the billions of dollars stuffed in the vaults of all of our creditors will become worthless. Once they decide to call in this debt we are screwed.

Our money is worthless. Once we were taken off the gold standard our money was backed by the fact that you could only buy oil with dollars. That was and is the new gold. We strong armed the oil producing nations into agreeing to sell their oil in dollars only. Once this ends then we are history.

Our government knows exactly what is going on. Maybe not the saps on the hill but the shadow warriors know what is about to take place.

The only way out of it is innovation. Someone in this thread mentioned it and if we don't already have a way to do away with oil dependence then our country is going to go through some fairly rough times. I hope those skunk works guys have something up their sleeves.

Where are we headed? Think Germany in the late 20's. They were a hated nation vilified by the entire world for their deeds of WWI. They were punished for it as well. Today we are vilified by the entire world for our recent deeds in Iraq and we are about to be hit with one of the biggest economic depressions the world has ever seen if everyone dumps the dollar in favor of the euro. We are about to be punished.

What conserns me is how we deal with it? Will we go on a military conquest like Germany? Will we decide to storng arm the North American hemisphere into siding with us? Will we provoke a world war to try and once again reshape the future of the dollar?

The only way the dollar will be prolonged is if Europe decides to make a gradual transition to the Euro from the dollar in oil trading. This only makes sense because if we fall hard and fast then so will the rest of the world. If they decide we are strong arming too many nations into keeping the dollar they will make a hostile move and accelerate the Euro option. Either way we are screwed as a nation.

The axis of evil are who? Iran, Iraq and North Korea. I have no idea how North Korea fits into this but Iran and Iraq selling oil in Euros will provide disastrous to our country. Add Russia and a few other big ones and we become 3rd world over night.

At that point we have one of three options: 1. Military Conquest 2. The skunk works guys bail us out with perpetual motion technology 3. We become enslaved to the EU.

This is just my opinion but I don't see any other way out of this. The world is on a collision course with the dollar and I suggest every get out of the way. I would buy a few things while the trucks are still moving. I don't have a lot but I do have some supplies that I add to every pay day under my stairs in the basement.

Keep an eye on the exchange rates between the Euro and the Dollar. Just this past year the dollar has taken a huge hit against the Euro. The only way I see us surviving is to cave to the Middle East and Europe so they allow a slow gradual death of the dollar.

p.s. remember the talk about the Amero? It's no B.S.



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 12:23 PM
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How about the US only gets to deal with a weaker dollar?

Even if the world wish to deal oil in Euro, I agree it will affect the demand (and the value) of the american dollar

But the US is actually the largest economy...

The US won't be "History" so soon... They are still a big economy, 300 million people...

You talked about Germany, guess what? after 2 world wars, economic collapse, (you name it) They are still there! And amongst the best suited nation actually!

As for Radical Islam, Yeah they might cause some instability in Europe and Western China (where there is a good muslim pop) But I believe the stronger the rise of Islam, the stronger the rise of rightwings in France that will counterbalance Islam. Don't forget Islam is more an ideology than a organised movement with little offencive capability and little solid economy to support it



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 02:38 PM
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Neither.

China one word will tell you the future of this country or any other country for that matter. And that word is demographics.

Demographic Time Bomb

Europe faces a similar demographic problem except with the added problem of a pensions time bomb due to European nation's generous welfare systems.

Europe faces pension time bomb



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 03:39 PM
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The future belongs to the nations that innovate, create new technologies. To do this you need well educated young men and women. Who has the best schools?

I'm not sure Europe invests much in schools and technology.



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 09:41 PM
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Here's a list of the world's top 100 universities.

Top 100 Universities


ape

posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 11:08 PM
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funny how russia nor china are on that list and how much america dominates in regards to education. America will always have a say in world affairs and will always remain a world leader.


based on europes history and massive differences I have a hard time seeing them remaining a bloc, something is going to happen here something is going to seperate that union I just dont know what because there are so many things that could cause it.


and basically all of these 'prospects' are only rellevant if nothing drastic happens in the future to these countries, and as past histrory has proven anything can happen in regards to wars and influence.

this may sound harsh but european countries have been the sole cause of the 2 great world wars and a holocaust and that was just in the 20th century. I have a very uneasy feeling about europe being considered a 'superpower', I dont think they can handle it.

the US has been a stable country and a world leader for many years now, we have had a stable currency which currently dominates the market because of the stability that backs it, the euro is new sauce in the world market and I doubt investors would risk dumping dollars for euros even though they may be worth now what does the future hold? the US can easily come out of it's debt and become a creditor nation again, I believe this will happen with smart fiscal responsibility which we have lacked as of late, point is the US is stable and this is a beacon of light to many investors, we have investor confidence because of our influence and proven stability on the world market.

[edit on 15-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 11:30 PM
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Ape you are right. People saying the US will "fall" are either wishing it to be or don't know all the facts. The US will be a superpower if China surpasses the economy or not. There probably won't be a hyperpower forever, but many superpowers. Education, opportunity, military, technology, and political influence all create a superpower, and those things for the US are not going to deplete for a while. Though we won't be the "only" one.


ape

posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 12:03 AM
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unfortunatley we have alot of american haters on this forum but I ask them which would they perfer? most of europe has been living under the US nuclear umbrella and that goes for many nations, we provide military and economic assistance to our allies and protect their interest along with our own something the EU has not proven at all, we provide stability and reassurance in the pacific rim and make chinese think twice about aggression something the EU cannot and will not do. we are a free market and countries love doing busniess with the US and it's massive consumers, we are a gold mine and the reason we are a goldmine is because of this stability. I dont believe the EU is fully united, everything may come off all fine and dandy but there are still massive differences and you will always have this when seperate countries are formed into a bloc, with this uncertainty comes the lack of investor confidence in regards to a stable currency.

the US aint goin no where anytime soon my friends ;-) the dollar has taken hits before yet continues to live and this will remain so


i must admit though these talks of a northamerican union and an 'amero' are very interesting, I think the only thing that would make the US lose it's super power status would be if this union happens. It would be absolute chaos in the US, you would have both conservatives and constitutional liberals fighting the federal government it would seriously be nuts. I know for a fact the people would not stand for a new constitution and have everything we have known erased only to lose our identity and have a new one created? # that I will take up arms and die before I see this country merged with mexico and canada.



[edit on 16-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 16-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 16-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 16-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 01:14 AM
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I love the USA as a Nation, and the ideal of our Government....it is the implementation of corruption i attack. A patriot does not go along with the government but is obligated to question every move, and continiously cast suspicion on its motives. That is the role of the Citizen.


as far as american consumer;

The Government and Banking system has made lifelong debtors of each American. Education creates debt that takes decades to pay...
When we should be spending money on education and research and science, we spend it invading Iraq..the Logic escapes me.


Living under a Nuclear Umbrella...who created the need for the umbrella in the first place...? cold war mentality in CIA overassessing russian military, creating a National machine that created weapons on unprecedented scale.

Love the Nation, cannot support the current government.



posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 01:27 AM
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Originally posted by k4rupt
Wrong, wrong, and WRONG again.

What is this perceived notion that China's vast economic growth is solely attributed to the United State's consumation of Chinese products? That is completely "bullocks." It sure as hell helps, but it isn't the sole, or even the top factor, in China's economic growth.

And again, China doesn't need to steal industrial secrets to become a super power... it already is a upser power... and as time passes, by mid century, China will be even more powerful - having the largest economy (10 trillion dollars in GDP higher than the U.S.).

Gosh people... Walmart doesn't own the Chinese economy. I thought this was a palce to deny ignorance, not spread it.

[edit on 14-12-2006 by k4rupt]


I dont know where the hell your getting your facts but theyre wrong! boy are you off. China has alot of problems. Pollution on a massive scale. Aids running rampant throughout the country side. 700 million ppl dont benefit off of the 'china boom" an estimated 300 million drink unsafe contaminated water, and thats on the conservative side. Most ppl in china live off a dollar a day. All that and im barely scratching the surface here. Look into chinas banking secter which looks like its about to collapse at anytime do to alot of things, one biggy though being all the corruption that is going on. Although the Chinese have significantly increased its tax revenues and agreed to allow American banks to invest into Chinas banking system in recent years, the Chinese banking system is still on the verge of an imminent financial crisis. Some experts have said they give chinas banking sector till 2007 until its eventual collapse. As for your 70-90% approval rateing by the chinese ppl. This comes in the big urbanized citys witch ironically are beginning to be overrun by rural chinese wanting a peice of the urban pie. In other words that 70-90% approval rateing you boast about does not represent at the very least 700,000,000 chinese.
In order for china to overtake the US economy on any scale they would have to grow at an anual 11-12% yearly for the next 35-45 years which wont happen. No way no how. And that estimate is not taking into grasp all the problems chinas economy faces. If chinas banking sector collapses then that will set china into a recession. Eventually that will collapse the chinese economy if such a likely scenario does infact happen.

In its 1993 report titled Global Economic Prospects and the Developing Countries, the World Bank predicted that the combined gross national product of China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong would reach $9.8 trillion by the year 2002, outstripping the United States to make the "Chinese economic area" the world's biggest economy. Didnt happen did it. Now your going even further into the future and predicting china will have a MEGA economy? Bud your off your rocker if you think thats going to happen. You show us your sources where its trendy for the academic world to pick china as the worlds future MEGA POWER. But dont forget, Its an opinion!. Opinions are like assholes. everyones got one. I wouldnt put to much fact into one unless you yourself know it to be true.

Back to the trendy idea that many in the academic world think China will be the next big superpower and more absurdly that China will take over the world in the relatively near future.... funny how appealing it is for some ppl to speculate the downfall of American and Western power, to make the claim China will be heir to the throne of world domination any time soon is completely bogus. Due to a combination of many problems, China and its economy are headed for a colossal breakdown.

A main problem with China is its refusal to cooperate with evenhanded trade regulations. China fixes its exchange rate against the dollar, currently at a rate of 8.27 renminbis per dollar. The system as it stands is unfair because it makes Chinese goods less expensive in foreign markets while foreign goods become more expensive in the Chinese market. When the World Trade Organization (WTO) and its major trading partners finally coerce China into floating its exchange rate, Chinese goods will become less competitive and its production will suffer. This is bound to happen sooner rather then later.

My vote goes for Europe which in itself faces problems. They just have the best shot. I think India will be a big player in the future as well.

I could go on and on but im tired of typeing. I didnt even want to step into this in the first place. But anyways. good luck with your quest for world domination.. Im outty yall.



posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by ape
based on europes history and massive differences I have a hard time seeing them remaining a bloc, something is going to happen here something is going to seperate that union I just dont know what because there are so many things that could cause it.
[edit on 15-12-2006 by ape]

One things for certain. That aint no sh*t.


Britains former European Minister Denis MacShane warned yesterday that if the European Union begins to ask member countries for formal apologizes for certain events in their histories, the bloc could face a danger of collapse.

In a guest op-ed in French daily Liberation, commenting on French President Jacques Chiracs remarks during his recent visit to Yerevan, MacShane said that then British Premier Tony Blair should visit Madagascar and Algeria to urge France to formally apologize to these nations for its massacres during World War II.

Stressing that the EU was putting new obstacles in front of Turkey almost each month, MacShane said that Turkeys friends should make diplomatic efforts to urge the EU to fulfill its commitments to this country.


No way in hell this experiment last. There are alot of unhappy customers in the EU right now.

America is the most stable country on earth to invest in. the US dollar wont go away easy. As has already been said. The US dollar has gone through similar times and has come back strong. Thats why most countrys use the american dollar. Because its so reliable. Thats why you havent seen euros replacing dollars etc. Its not the best business idea ,because you dont know how well the Euro will do in the long run. Where as the dollar has proven its worth.

[edit on 023131p://666 by semperfoo]


ape

posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 02:36 AM
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semperfoo good breakdown on china, seriously they really have to rethink their approach if they want to prosper.



originally posted by toolman
Living under a Nuclear Umbrella...who created the need for the umbrella in the first place...? cold war mentality in CIA overassessing russian military, creating a National machine that created weapons on unprecedented scale.


a nuclear umbrella is to deter aggressive actions from another country and to prevent intimidation etc, it was especially needed in europe because the soviet union was hell bent on expansion, the only thing that kept them from moving forward is the US and its nuclear arsenal which would have annihilated russia and russians indeed value their lives.

the US also has a nuclear umbrella over japan and SK and Taiwan to protect not only from chinese aggression but also military posturing and bullying from NK. to protect not only our allies interests but our own and for the good of the world market and regional peace all together. the US is the X factor in alot of regions.

basically if the US didn't make it's forces known in alot of regions and withdrew all together their would be massive war, the US militarty keeps alot of hostile countries in check.

[edit on 16-12-2006 by ape]

[edit on 16-12-2006 by ape]



posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 02:30 PM
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posted by sweatmonicaIdo

It’s popular culture to believe the 21st century belongs to the People's Republic of China. Why not? Its economy is on an absolute tear, it boasts the world's biggest population, and is making headway in just about every area possible. At the same time, I am seeing [from] the academics a very different view. It appears China's rise is overstated and it actually faces serious problems that may thwart its growth. Its economic growth is said to be unsustainable, there is very uneven development and growth, environmental pollution. All things considered, China's century does not appear to be the 21st century. [Edited by Don W]



In ‘04-‘05, it is reliably reported that in the interior provinces, there were 45,000 civil incidents large enough to be acknowledged. Two incident s required the PLA to fire its weapons to quell. 25% of China’s people live in the thriving region closest to the Pacific Ocean, called the “coastal” region. The remaining 75% of the people live in the interior, and in some contexts are called “in-landers.” Income differences are vast and are getting worse rather than better. As I have posted elsewhere, the coastal people have been relieved of the communist ideology and have gone whole hog into unrestrained capitalism (its own worst enemy), whereas the interior people have been kept under the collective, communist philosophy. Beijing cannot sustain this dichotomy indefinitely. I agree, China has made great growth since the 1977 Sixth Party Congress authorized experimental capitalism. But it is also digging itself into an ever deepening hole.



We have forgotten a potential superpower and we are only just beginning to remember its existence: the European Union. The EU is also far ahead of the game in terms of quality of life, overall development, military power, and world standing.



Yes and No. Yes, the EU will have statistics sufficient to challenge either the US of A or the PRC. OTOH, Holland and France rejected the 300 page EU Constitution recently. We are back to ground zero. A conglomeration of states but not yet united under one set of laws. Treaties, yes, a generic law, no. The various states making up the EU spend 1% to 1.5% of GDP on military. That does not make the projection of power as easy as it is for the US. If you think it is bad in the US, getting a consensus, imagine how it would be in the EU with25 different capitals, each with 3-4 political parties, all with a different POV. A genuine political kaleidoscope and just as unpredictable!

If China attempts to enter the US dominated world arena, China will join the USSR. In bankruptcy court. It is culturally contra-indicated that China be a genuine competitor with the US, militarily. If and when China can exercise its hegemony over Taiwan, that will end China’s power ambitions. The Chinese are after all, Confucius-ists. Not Christians nor Muslims not Jewish.


[edit on 12/16/2006 by donwhite]


ape

posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 02:35 PM
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good points donwhite, I dont see anyone dethroning the US but the US itself.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 04:42 PM
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Like I said before, it is unlikely the US will simply disappear even after economic collapse or even "gasp" if they decide to pull from Iraq!


sarcasm appart, I just think the US won't be as strong and that more and more nations will hold considerable regional power like Iran in the Middle East and Russia in Eastern Europe



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