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Does the future belong to China or Europe?

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posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:05 PM
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Originally posted by pavil
The future belongs to whoever develops the next safe renewable energy source. The country who does this first will probably dominate the next few centuries.


I think developing a safe renewable energy source is an international effort... any such development would indeed be shared around the globe. Not just one nation would have it.

Even then, at the rate China is promoting science and math in it's education system, it's hard for us pot smoking, alcohol abusing, frat boys to compete with in "higher education." Or maybe it's just me




posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:12 PM
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Originally posted by k4rupt
I think developing a safe renewable energy source is an international effort... any such development would indeed be shared around the globe. Not just one nation would have it.


One would hope it would be, but the economic benefits will trickle mainly to the country that develops it. The copy of that technology will spread as soon as it is figured out, but until then, certain countries will benefit first. If GM or Toyota for example develops a fuel cell system for a car that really works they way they are envisioned, would they share that technology free?



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:13 PM
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Japan had a culture of glorifying High Education and effort but they haven't became a superpower...

We need to look at the bigpicture to take a guest at who's the next superpower

Someone said China is one country with one army, Indeed that is a good point that we mustnt forget, The European Union is not a consolidated entity like China

I remember seeing the Factors that make a nation powerful at school, we need to look at all of them

EDIT: No they wouldn't share it free, But would China give a damn about the patent? No they wouldn't


[edit on 14-12-2006 by CanadianGlasnost]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:25 PM
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The consensus I'm gaining thus far is that the EU's biggest hurdle is in finding a preferable method of consolidation. For example, the term "United States of Europe" is considered degrading, because it means that each nation will have to give up its sovereignty in exchange for melding into a massive union. So the EU must find a way to come together as a unified entity that does not take away the identity of each constituent.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:32 PM
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Well a Confederation might be a good idea

A similar system as we have in Canada, wich is essentialy a group of nations (up to now, only Quebec is recognised as a nation but doesnt change much in practice)

Executive Powers are separated between provincial and federal. Stuff like the Defence and foreign relations are dealed by the federal governement while education, natural ressources and the rest is given to the provincial government so it might retain his soverainety

The Confederate Union of Europe, sounds good to me

[edit on 14-12-2006 by CanadianGlasnost]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:48 PM
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Personally, I don't think we're going to see a unipolar world,
with only one superpower country.

I think we're going to have a handfull of powers by 2050.

The EU.
China or AESN.
NAU or equivalent.
South American Community of Nations.

By the beginning of the 21st century I think it will be set-up
thusly:
-EU
-NAU
-AESN (Asian Union thing)
-AU (African Union)
-SACN

[edit on 12/14/2006 by iori_komei]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:52 PM
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There is already an African Union, but I don't see it becoming a power at all... Not even regional

I almost creamed my pants just thinking about seeing a newspaper:
"African Union Launches an invasion of Europe, African leaders confident in their victory"



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:54 PM
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China is an interesting place.

When the CPC ( communist party of China) decides on a course, it is done. there is little debating and the goal is achieved. They plan their economy and social goals on 5 year plans, and usually achieve them. This is a huge advantage, when the goal is benevolent.

There are social and ecnomic pressures, but then China has over 1 trillion dollars ( USD) in cash, no other nation can claim this. The USA is 7-9 trillion in debt to international banking systems...and will be a debtor nation for the foreseeable future.

China was the worlds super power 500 years ago, then the emperor did not take advantage of the industrial revolution, and the rest is history.
Dont forget China is a massive innovation machine, its culture is highly imaginative and creative. That energy is being harnessed again, intellectual property is being protected, crackdowns are occuring for piracy, etc. The playing field is being leveled and policed.

The USA had the unique opportunity to lead the world into bright economic future, maybe China will take up this role and do better.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by CanadianGlasnost
There is already an African Union, but I don't see it becoming a power at all... Not even regional


I know there is, and the reason I said by 2100, is because
I see it taking that long for them to gain any power.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:02 PM
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Originally posted by CanadianGlasnost
There is already an African Union, but I don't see it becoming a power at all... Not even regional


Africa does have a large supply of untapped natural resources. As the Middle East oil supplies dwindle, we may see a shift to the Horn of Africa. If oil is struck in those areas, watch out. These countries would become world players overnight and beef up their militaries.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:05 PM
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iori_komei: Wow you sure as hell more optimist than me


EDIT: Sorry I don't buy that stuff about Africa. Yes they have ressources, but almost NO insfrastructure, stability, capital or anything to upgrade their situation. They are litteraly eaten by diseases and even with the oil, I don't see their status getting any better

toolman: Okay... where to start? USSR used 5years plan also, those are called quinquennal plans and are used less and less, that's the advantage of a free market economy, they don't need to plan everything

As for the debt... every nation has debt, and what gives value to a debt is the ability of the debtor to repay the loan. Don't forget also that the US consumers are the main responsibles for the economic growth of China, they sure as hell don't want to see the country falling into oblivion

Intellectual property protected in China? Sorry, following the T&C I refuse to comment that one

Maybe china is highly imaginative and everything, but they still are busy looking for the industrial secrets of other countries... I don't remember last time we caught a French spy in one of our industries, but I don't remember when we last heard of chinese spying in the West

The (dubious) fact that china was a world leader 500 years ago is irrevelant to the current debate

[edit on 14-12-2006 by CanadianGlasnost]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:24 PM
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Wrong, wrong, and WRONG again.

What is this perceived notion that China's vast economic growth is solely attributed to the United State's consumation of Chinese products? That is completely "bullocks." It sure as hell helps, but it isn't the sole, or even the top factor, in China's economic growth.

And again, China doesn't need to steal industrial secrets to become a super power... it already is a upser power... and as time passes, by mid century, China will be even more powerful - having the largest economy (10 trillion dollars in GDP higher than the U.S.).

Gosh people... Walmart doesn't own the Chinese economy. I thought this was a palce to deny ignorance, not spread it.

[edit on 14-12-2006 by k4rupt]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:27 PM
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Sorry I don't buy that stuff about Africa. Yes they have ressources, but almost NO insfrastructure, stability, capital or anything to upgrade their situation. They are litteraly eaten by diseases and even with the oil, I don't see their status getting any better


The oil is their ticket out. By mobilizing themselves to extract that oil, they can make a lot of headway and use the money they gain from the oil to build that infrastructure and stability.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:30 PM
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Wrong, wrong and WRONG again

I never said the US was the sole contributor to the chinese economy, Deny ignorance friend, I said it was a Main responsible, wich is true (hey, like the guy said they got a trillion in US dollars)

Well, If they don't need it they could start respecting intellectual property and patent ownership? Of COURSE I believe china will be stronger by mid century... But the largest economy? I don't dare call you a liar but might I ask where do you get your numbers?

SweatmonicaIdo: Maybe you are right, But I'd like your opinion on that: Do you think since Nigeria has large oil reserves they will mobilise and become a important regional power?
What I fear is a Middle-East like spending that doesnt improve the industrial level of the country
(While I must admit Dubai looks like is doing a good job)

[edit on 14-12-2006 by CanadianGlasnost]

[edit on 14-12-2006 by CanadianGlasnost]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:41 PM
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toolman: Okay... where to start? USSR used 5years plan also, those are called quinquennal plans and are used less and less, that's the advantage of a free market economy, they don't need to plan everything

"As for the debt... every nation has debt, and what gives value to a debt is the ability of the debtor to repay the loan. Don't forget also that the US consumers are the main responsibles for the economic growth of China, they sure as hell don't want to see the country falling into oblivion "

The economic growth of Chine is due to many reasons, the EU is actually Chinas largest trading partner. Germany is the most adept at understand China and servicing its economy.
As far as repaying the loan, that is the trouble. instead of money being directed towards Education, health care, social services, science, research and much more....it is required to pay interest on incredibly wastefull spending. Hence the fall of the Super power



"Intellectual property protected in China? Sorry, following the T&C I refuse to comment that one"
China is now producing patents at a rate comparable to modern nations, and protecting them. I read every day of people arrested and incarcerated for piracy and violating copyrights and infringements. Government is realizing to leap into the 21st century, creativity and research must be protected, and it will accomplish that.





"Maybe china is highly imaginative and everything, but they still are busy looking for the industrial secrets of other countries... I don't remember last time we caught a French spy in one of our industries, but I don't remember when we last heard of chinese spying in the West "


French industrial spys are worldwide, as are israeli, German, American, and yes even Canadian. It is courtesy to not print the expulsion of spys caught, because it will be reciprocated in kind when yours are caught.
It does make great headlines when it is Chinese. PLease dont fool yourself into thinking the French do not spy as much or more than the Chinese, or any other nation on this great earth.


"The (dubious) fact that china was a world leader 500 years ago is irrevelant to the current debate"

To this day no armada reached the size of the great China Shipping fleets that sailed the oceans from the years 1100-1500. Fleets of thousands sailed and traded silks, pottery, agriculture, textiles, spices, and all types of goods. China had gunpowder and rockets when europe was using bows and arrows, could field armies that outnumbered Nations. China was a world super power, it will become one again.

It is relevant, due to the same forces that shaped China then, are shaping China now. This is a Culture with a heritage reaching back 5000 years, a nation with an incredibly solid foundation.

If i was the west, i would be concerned also. China will shape the future of thie Earth without indebting itself to a corrupt banking system.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by CanadianGlasnost
Wrong, wrong and WRONG again

I never said the US was the sole contributor to the chinese economy, Deny ignorance friend, I said it was a Main responsible, wich is true (hey, like the guy said they got a trillion in US dollars)


China's largest trading partner is in fact Europe... As for their economy growing, it will eventually reach that of the US and the EU.. Tis what the economists say, anyway.


Originally posted by CanadianGlasnost
SweatmonicaIdo: Maybe you are right, But I'd like your opinion on that: Do you think since Nigeria has large oil reserves they will mobilise and become a important regional power?


They already are.....


Originally posted by CanadianGlasnost
What I fear is a Middle-East like spending that doesnt improve the industrial level of the country
(While I must admit Dubai looks like is doing a good job)


There has been a significant shift in the past few years for the Gulf states to diversify. This does, of course, take time. And they have the minor problem of most of their populace being backwards, religious types. So education is the key and that too, takes time.




posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:58 PM
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Great I like large replies


The US does not direct that much on Education, Health Care, science and other, it's more on the military but still, I get your point. Even if I don't think that is enough to make the US fall.
The Russian situation wasnt good (way worse than the US) and they are starting to get way better. The economy is the engine of a nation, even if they are largely indebted, it doesnt mean the economy will disappear tomorrow.

Yes, the economic growth is due to many reasons. I admit I didnt know about the EU taking the leading place as the main trading partner with China, but the US still had and still has it's importance of the economic growth of china

They are starting to do better on the protection of intellectual property, but it is still a subject of disagreements between china and many nations, the US being one of them. That means they haven't quite managed to protect in a satisfying way the intellectual property.

For a nation that was a superpower 500 years ago, they pretty much got raped on many occasions by the Europeans

As for the relevance... I might as well say that the force that brough independance to the US will make them stay the leading superpower for the next 250 years. Africa has solid fondations too (so strong in fact some areas arent out of the Tribal mentality) but no one holds them for the next superpower

Yes the West must be concerned with the rise of China and of course, a country that has a so much important part of the planet's population will shape history. Albeiter, you don't need to be the world's leading nation to shape the world

Without indebting itself to a corrupt banking system? You mean like joining the WTO? Their system is becoming more and more like ours

Stumason: Indeed I have been corrected for the largest trading partner

Economists also predicted a continuous rise of Nortel, this is why we are analysing between ourselves here


Lol sorry yes they already are an important regional power, but still plagued with racial tensions and instability. They are an important power but not a stable one

I was particularly thinking about Saudi Arabia about the careless spending, it is not a regime that favorises diversification and modernisation ( and I doubt it will be for the best, since I think if the Wahhabite monarchy falls, the extremists take place)

And yes, it will take time for them, As it will take time for China to reach the economic size of the US and EU


[edit on 14-12-2006 by CanadianGlasnost]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 10:26 PM
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Economists also predicted a continuous rise of Nortel, this is why we are analysing between ourselves here


Haha, tell me about it. I used to work for them! Less said the better



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 10:32 PM
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Why arent you working for them anymore If I may ask?



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 02:55 AM
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I will be really worried about China when they aren't importing so much military technology, 700 million people are not impoverished, and a good job is no longer making shirts and shoes for the rest of the world, and we are not respecting their patents.



[edit on 15-12-2006 by RetinoidReceptor]



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