Are the Russians more prepared for Nuclear war?

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posted on Jan, 2 2007 @ 03:45 PM
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I havent posted here for the past couple days do to a severe hangover.
Ill let you ppl go off to neverland (or whatever its called) and continue to speculate! And stellar. Why all the sources? Why do you care so much in your quest to prove others wrong? You dont honestly expect someone in their right mind to read all that crap do you?

Its called a life.
and theyre a whole lot of fun once you have one.


I will leave this last piece for you ppl to percieve, discuss, whatev. The US has been the lone top dog for over a decade. The US has been spending siginificantly more dough then russia has since the fall of the USSR. Do you honestly think all the money we've spent in R&D is to catch up with the ruskies?


I for one dont beleive a damn thing the russians say and I probably never will. The USSR was all of smoke and mirrors during its run anyways, nothing more. Nothing less. Russia is a country that is rebuilding from the ground up.

So forgive me if I have a hard time beleiveing a country that is a shell of its former self is somehow superior to a country that spends, and has for over the decade, significantly larger amount of dough on R&D. The US spends more on its military then russias entire GDP.




posted on Jan, 2 2007 @ 06:48 PM
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so what they spend more than russia does. You have to remember that everything in Russia costs cheaper to produce and it is a fact. Russia still produces far superior weapons such as S-400 or S-300PU, and US Patriots don't even compare close to a S-300. see it doesn't matter how much US spends because Russians can manufacture the same product but cheaper and far more superior.



posted on Jan, 2 2007 @ 07:36 PM
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HAH!!! The ruskies can barely afford the gum off the bottom of there bench seats!!!

Show me how russia is at an advantage when compared to americas 500 billion dollar DoD? They might be able to produce some neat techno but because they lack the FUNDs to produce on a large scale! They wont be able to stack up to america ship for ship, plane for plan, Weapon system for weapon system. If you think that then your living in a land of OZ!


I suggest you take these off.



[edit on 073131p://3801pm by semperfoo]



posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 01:10 AM
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Originally posted by semperfoo
HAH!!! The ruskies can barely afford the gum off the bottom of there bench seats!!!

Show me how russia is at an advantage when compared to americas 500 billion dollar DoD? They might be able to produce some neat techno but because they lack the FUNDs to produce on a large scale! They wont be able to stack up to america ship for ship, plane for plan, Weapon system for weapon system. If you think that then your living in a land of OZ!


I suggest you take these off.



[edit on 073131p://3801pm by semperfoo]


they dont need to stack up to america ship for ship and so on.. cold war is over hello!!!! You have to take into consideration about oil prices and how america is losing economical war to russia, there will be no more conventional wars between russia or usa trust me, all the Uk and US companies got kicked out from Russia and they are angry about
, the thing is that america is so much in debt it is not even funny, especially with all those money spend on Iraq and Afganistan, dollar is falling .



posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 02:49 AM
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Originally posted by Oplot84
they dont need to stack up to america ship for ship and so on.. cold war is over hello!!!! You have to take into consideration about oil prices and how america is losing economical war to russia, there will be no more conventional wars between russia or usa trust me, all the Uk and US companies got kicked out from Russia and they are angry about
, the thing is that america is so much in debt it is not even funny, especially with all those money spend on Iraq and Afganistan, dollar is falling .



BLEH.... Not this nonsense again.


War cost money. When has that not ever been the case? Plain and simple. However American GDP is growing FASTER then american debt.

America is also about to replace its current federal taxation system with a much better one called the fair tax.

75 econonomist have heavily researched and debated the fair tax and have agreed that the year the fairtax is enabled americas economy will grow a whopping 10.5% and by 2015 would have doubled americas current GDP!!! So its not so doom and gloom as you would like to beleive.

We have a thread going on about the fairtax here on ATS polotics. I suggest you take a look at it so you dont look like a hopeless moron next time you open your mouth
Maybe get a better perspective as to where america currently stands on the political spectrum?....

Just follow the bottom link in my sig and it will take you right to the discussion on the fairtax here on ATS! Educate yourself. And deny your own ignorance in the mean time.


[edit on 023131p://5001am by semperfoo]



posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 07:39 AM
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Originally posted by Oplot84
so what they spend more than russia does. You have to remember that everything in Russia costs cheaper to produce and it is a fact. Russia still produces far superior weapons such as S-400 or S-300PU, and US Patriots don't even compare close to a S-300. see it doesn't matter how much US spends because Russians can manufacture the same product but cheaper and far more superior.


and patriot PAC-3 is a ripoff of the S-300V .there's a major thread on warfare.ru on this :
forum.warfare.ru...



He ventured that the Defense Ministry and the Rosvooruzheniye state-owned arms exporter (now called Rosoboronexport) sell an S-300V SAM system to the United States. His offer was motivated by the fact that the CIA had been trying to lay its hands on the S-300V for a long time. Raytheon Company, which was upgrading the Patriot system, had to study all S-300V components in detail in order to accomplish the required objectives
en.rian.ru...



posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 09:55 PM
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who you callin a hopeless moron shut your pile hole scumback, you seem to talk more # than actually proving, oh by the way again dollar is falling and most countries sell $ and purchase euros instead, well holy # like I didn't know the war costs money... omfg seriously it does????
well thanx for telling me something already know

I am repeating again that russia doesnt need to spend as much money on military because they can produce far superior arms and paying less to manufactutre, dip#.



posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 10:07 PM
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Originally posted by Oplot84
who you callin a hopeless moron shut your pile hole scumback, you seem to talk more # than actually proving, oh by the way again dollar is falling and most countries sell $ and purchase euros instead, well holy # like I didn't know the war costs money... omfg seriously it does????
well thanx for telling me something already know

I am repeating again that russia doesnt need to spend as much money on military because they can produce far superior arms and paying less to manufactutre, dip#.



While I am neither a fan of Semper nor Ape, for their inability to properly argue or debate, and for their almost blind devotion to their country, this statement reeks of idiocy.

'Shut your pile hole scumback', even had it been spelled correctly, is entirely immature. Please watch your language.
Further, no, the dollar has relatively stabilized. Yes, it is below the Euro. And will remain so for the forseeable future. Moreso, the dollar remains the preferred currency of nations, many of which of whom will fight to keep the dollar aloft, else their own investments depreciate.

Lastly, [latest-generation] Russian technology is by and large untestedi n modern battlefield enviroments, so any argument as to their efficiency, especially as to call it superior to American military technology, is an absurd statement, one without backing or supporting evidence. Saying this, I fully admit their technology is cheaper, and I'd imagine easily, more efficient per dollar, so to speak.



posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 10:24 PM
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Originally posted by Oplot84
who you callin a hopeless moron shut your pile hole scumback, you seem to talk more # than actually proving, oh by the way again dollar is falling and most countries sell $ and purchase euros instead, well holy # like I didn't know the war costs money... omfg seriously it does????
well thanx for telling me something already know

I am repeating again that russia doesnt need to spend as much money on military because they can produce far superior arms and paying less to manufactutre, dip#.



Uhhhh. OK. What is this ?
Just a bunch of jibberish from an insane person....



posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 10:28 PM
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Originally posted by Iblis
While I am neither a fan of Semper nor Ape, for their inability to properly argue or debate, and for their almost blind devotion to their country, this statement reeks of idiocy.



Hey now...
that wasnt very nice..... Good points though, beside the above rubbish.


[edit on 103131p://2901pm by semperfoo]



posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 10:33 PM
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ya kkkkkkkk buddie, look whos talking.. look in the mirror and see insane there aight?


ape

posted on Jan, 3 2007 @ 11:59 PM
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by iblis
While I am neither a fan of Semper nor Ape, for their inability to properly argue or debate


well you may disagree with my approach but who are you to say I dont know how to debate considering we have never engaged? I have done my best to counter the complete misinformation campagin put on by the communist supporters and soviet empire members saying my country is going to collapse blah blah blah the russians have mass deployed DEW plus super carrier spaceships that launch fleets of space fighters and have a device that enables putin to travel back in time to learn from stalin, which is very common retoric around here. every one of my posts on these forums I try to come with actual fact, when I dont I get corrected and I acknowledge and thank it as I have displayed here already.



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 12:56 AM
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Originally posted by ape


by iblis
While I am neither a fan of Semper nor Ape, for their inability to properly argue or debate


well you may disagree with my approach but who are you to say I dont know how to debate considering we have never engaged? I have done my best to counter the complete misinformation campagin put on by the communist supporters and soviet empire members saying my country is going to collapse blah blah blah the russians have mass deployed DEW plus super carrier spaceships that launch fleets of space fighters and have a device that enables putin to travel back in time to learn from stalin, which is very common retoric around here. every one of my posts on these forums I try to come with actual fact, when I dont I get corrected and I acknowledge and thank it as I have displayed here already.


1st of all get your facts right, i am NOT a communist supporter.
2nd of what the hell are you talking about??? have you read what you have just posted



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 12:57 AM
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Originally posted by semperfoo

Originally posted by Iblis
While I am neither a fan of Semper nor Ape, for their inability to properly argue or debate, and for their almost blind devotion to their country, this statement reeks of idiocy.



Hey now...
that wasnt very nice..... Good points though, beside the above rubbish.


[edit on 103131p://2901pm by semperfoo]


I apologize to the extent, Semperfoo, that I may say you make valid points, though usually with a streak of Nationalism tinging your words. :]
My issue really is that so many here seem to do the same, and eventually threads forming into a Nationalist battle, where both sides spout nonsense, and with no absolute backing or evidence as to their cause.
For instance:

Ape, can you prove to me, with supporting evidence:

a. That the opposing members of this thread are communist supporters and soviet empire members? This is not a serious question, given that we should all know the Soviet Empire has collapsed. This, as stated, is simply blithe Nationalist speech.
b. DEW would make ABM's obsolete
c. Russia does not maintain the nuclear triad.
d. Russia cannot // could not compete or keep up with the US militarily.
e. Russia flies su-47 and outdated migs every year .
f. Russian sources are proven liars.
[Largely copy-pasted with minor edits]

Remember that to generalize an entire group of people, past, present, or future, is a mistake of the most extreme proportions.

Ape, I do understand the argument behind some of your counter-arguments, though it is not well thought-out, and easily disproven.

Further, this is not to disprove any and all arguments that either poster has made. On the contrary, I disagree with a fair deal of StellerX's replies, as well as the other primary 'combatants' of this thread. So to say that I dislike the way in which they handle and support their cases, please do not take this to mean they are wrong on all accounts to any measure, and the other side has been utterly and totally correct in their presumptions and arguments.

Lastly, I don't believe anyone mentioned Time-Travel or Space-Ships, though I understand the potential point you were trying to make.


ape

posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 08:55 PM
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posted by iblis
a. That the opposing members of this thread are communist supporters and soviet empire members? This is not a serious question, given that we should all know the Soviet Empire has collapsed. This, as stated, is simply blithe Nationalist speech


well first of all strauf, vk_man, stellar and leevi all support the communist weaponry with total disregard for US tech which is top of the line, I would respect their opinion a little more if they were a bit more realistic on what the US is actually capable of. they make up these crazy battle scenarios and with outrageous figures and post sources that are 20 years old and they always say russia will come out on top, thats when I usually say nobody wins in a nuke fight. whats sad is they are dead serious.

why are you telling me the soviet empire collapse? I know this. you can still be a communist and be russian, just because the USSR collapsed doesn't mean some russians dont still have a commie minstate. dont claim what im saying is blithe and nationalistic when you are not even comprehending what im saying, soviet empire is a web site that strauf or vk_man one of the 2 has referenced here on ATS and posted links many times. I believe on of the links lead me to a thread that was titled ' commie mega tech vs yankee crap. so I came to my own conclusions. comprende senor?



b. DEW would make ABM's obsolete


have you researched DEW technology? once tracked the target is taken out at the speed of light, this is unmatched. the need for new development of missiles would become a non priority when DEW is fully implemented by the US military. no to mention other technologies like metal storm they wont need to develope any more ABM's as they already have a pretty good size aresenal. the US is openly showing people and the information is available of its advancement in DEW technology something russia is not, and basically what we know about US DEW capabilities is the stuff that isn't classified. maybe a lower priority rather than obsolete, if you're going to invest into something like DEW and excell at it basically the end results is having a system that will outperform any ABM system, it would be a bad investment to continue to develope ABM's.



Russia does not maintain the nuclear triad


www.thebulletin.org...

take a good read especially the SSBN section, the US has a clear advantage in any scenario as we dominate in all aspects of the triad expecially the air and sea.

the US www.thebulletin.org...




Russia cannot // could not compete or keep up with the US militarily


well unless they develope planes like the f-22 and the JSF and the stealth bomber, amass mass naval units with carriers and subs all of which can strike anywhere in the world in short notice. the last time russia tried to compete with the US military econmically they collapsed and lost all of their satellite republics, this is a fact. take a good look at how much they spend on defense which is KEY for any superpower if they want to be at the level the US is at. although i disagree with the wastefull wars my country is currently engaging in.



Russia flies su-47 and outdated migs every year


well i said su's and migs and 1 su-47, because that is all they ever developed, what else does russia fly whenever they have an airshow?



f. Russian sources are proven liars.


take a look at all the sources these people link up, it's all opinion and imagination, westpoint and many others have pointed this out many times as alot of the crap posted have no foundation to support it. Not to mention that files released after the fall of the USSR showed that they documented more kills on the sabre then what was actually deployed, totally over exaggerating the kill ratio and making up complete falses. this is mainly what I was referencing.



Ape, I do understand the argument behind some of your counter-arguments, though it is not well thought-out, and easily disproven.


well then I believe you don't understand the argument at all, I believe my posts are very well thought out, I do my best to no post misinformation which is something certain people on this site excell at.

[edit on 4-1-2007 by ape]

[edit on 4-1-2007 by ape]



posted on Jan, 4 2007 @ 10:33 PM
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What, if you'll excuse me, is communist weaponry? Given that Russia is no longer communist, and it is Russian equipment we are discussing?

Further, United States equipment is top-of-the-line, generally, though also equal in many areas with other modern-militaries. Let's not think ourselves superior in all shapes and forms, as it is that blind arrogance which causes the world to detest us today.
--Following this, there has been more-than-needed downplay of American capabilities, I admit that, and like your own 'blithe Nationalism', 'they' also need to admit to reality.

Further, very few sources of theirs have been so-far-outdated, save for the Vietnam, Korean War statistics which, by nature, have to be old. I admit, the vast majority of information, on old wars, is old.

To connect a source to the person whom posted it seems natural enough, but has too many flaws. By referencing Wikipedia, am I a simplistic twit who can changes opinions at the click of a button? [Literally.] While few Russians probably have communism still at heart, this is acceptable given that for many, Communist-era Russia was a more prosperous, healthy nation than the current state. [Recently changing, I know. Thank-you for energy investments.]

Once tracked, the target is bathed in the energy. This begins a reaction which, preferably, leads to airframe, propellant, or warhead detonating prematurely or becoming defunct. DEW technology has never been tested against ICBM's, or Cruise Missiles with any degree of success. [That is, mobile, mass-produced DEW technology. We know the Israeli's have had astounding success with their Raytheon partners and DEW-projects.] Further, there is always a gap in defense. And missiles, fast as they are, capable as they are, have a high capacity to defeat defences.
Iron Storm is largely a dead-project as-of-late, and most applications are theoretical, neither tested nor planned.
Hit-To-Kill, and nuclear ABM's, by-and-large will remain a more effective means of preventing ICBM strikes for the forseeable future.

Your link proves my point. It states Russia remains a nuclear triad, simply a less-effective, thinner force than it once was. Thank you.
The argument was not that we, the United States, had a superior operational force -- [Common Knowledge] -- But your mentioning that the Russia triad no longer exists. As I quoted.

I agree, Russian military technology is by-and-large inferior, unit-per-unit, to our own. However, and this is baseless, off-the-top-of-my-head-statistics: If for every high-tech piece of technology we have, they produce, and man three slightly-inferior, relatively equal units, won't numbers win? Not to say Russia will win an engagement regardless, as this doesn't take into account Russia's ability to man and train such a large force, that _all_ equipment is relative, and only marginally superior to the U.S. counter-part, not to mention politics, allies, etc. But it remains an argument.

I don't feel like going back to the post I quoted, but, from what you just stated I'll agree whole-heartedly! Russian military airshows fly Su's and Migs. Their top manufacturers. That's like saying, 'Can you deny U.S. flies only Lockheed and Boeing planes at Airshows?! WTFOMFG.'

I'm not entering your last statement, as that entire argument was before this post, and is not related to my original qualms.

Ciao.


ape

posted on Jan, 5 2007 @ 12:25 AM
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the sources stellarX posted about russian DEW technology was 20 years old, I'm not sure exactly what you're reading.

yes I love my country but im hardly bias towards others, I respect the british and the germans and even the russians to an extent. I just dislike the misinformation campaign put on by alot of people here, and for your information alot of the russian aresenal is USSR equipment hence 'commie weaponry'.

you really are in no position to be talking down to me.



Your link proves my point. It states Russia remains a nuclear triad, simply a less-effective, thinner force than it once was. Thank you.


and no my links didnt prove your point, when i talk triad i talk SSBN patrols and nuclear projection, if you think 0 patrols in 2002, 2 patrols in 2003, 3 patrols in 2004, and 2 patrols in 2005 is a functions detterant nuclear triad then you infact need to come to grips with reality.



The argument was not that we, the United States, had a superior operational force -- [Common Knowledge] -- But your mentioning that the Russia triad no longer exists. As I quoted


I suggest taking a look at your original question as I quoted it, ceased to exists was somthing I never stated, able to properly fund??? yes thats more along the lines of what I said, please dont attempt to manipulate this conversation.

[edit on 5-1-2007 by ape]

[edit on 5-1-2007 by ape]



posted on Jan, 5 2007 @ 12:59 AM
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Originally posted by Iblis
While I am neither a fan of Semper nor Ape, for their inability to properly argue or debate, and for their almost blind devotion to their country, this statement reeks of idiocy.



Hey now...
that wasnt very nice..... Good points though, beside the above rubbish.




I apologize to the extent, Semperfoo, that I may say you make valid points, though usually with a streak of Nationalism tinging your words. :]
My issue really is that so many here seem to do the same, and eventually threads forming into a Nationalist battle, where both sides spout nonsense, and with no absolute backing or evidence as to their cause.
For instance:

Ape, can you prove to me, with supporting evidence:

a. That the opposing members of this thread are communist supporters and soviet empire members? This is not a serious question, given that we should all know the Soviet Empire has collapsed. This, as stated, is simply blithe Nationalist speech.
b. DEW would make ABM's obsolete
c. Russia does not maintain the nuclear triad.
d. Russia cannot // could not compete or keep up with the US militarily.
e. Russia flies su-47 and outdated migs every year .
f. Russian sources are proven liars.
[Largely copy-pasted with minor edits]

Remember that to generalize an entire group of people, past, present, or future, is a mistake of the most extreme proportions.

Ape, I do understand the argument behind some of your counter-arguments, though it is not well thought-out, and easily disproven.

Further, this is not to disprove any and all arguments that either poster has made. On the contrary, I disagree with a fair deal of StellerX's replies, as well as the other primary 'combatants' of this thread. So to say that I dislike the way in which they handle and support their cases, please do not take this to mean they are wrong on all accounts to any measure, and the other side has been utterly and totally correct in their presumptions and arguments.

Lastly, I don't believe anyone mentioned Time-Travel or Space-Ships, though I understand the potential point you were trying to make.


No worrys here mate. I dont take anything literal over the internet anyways.
Especially when its at a conspiracy site.



[edit on 013131p://0201am by semperfoo]



posted on Jan, 5 2007 @ 11:36 AM
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Originally posted by semperfoo
I havent posted here for the past couple days do to a severe hangover.
Ill let you ppl go off to neverland (or whatever its called) and continue to speculate!


Say's the person who celebrates the starf of a new year by getting completely wasted.


And stellar. Why all the sources?


When one does research you normally read things and when you engage in discussion with ignorant vain people sometimes such source material can give them a moments pause before they indulge in more character attacks...
I am sure there are at least a few people who actually appreciate the fact that they investigate my claims as thoroughly as they may be interested to.



Why do you care so much in your quest to prove others wrong?


I am most certainly not here to 'prove' 'others' ( you , i presume) wrong as much as i am here to introduce some new material into the discussion. If you think i am here to prove you, and not your current beliefs, inaccurate you need to grow up as i would not care about your opinions if you did not attempt to post them as facts. This is not about you or me but about establishing based on the best information we have available to us.


You dont honestly expect someone in their right mind to read all that crap do you?


I only expect those who want to engage in discussion to familiarize themselves with the source material. If the discussion does not interest you don't bother but if it does and you want to defend a certain point of view you simply must understand some of the material in question.


Its called a life.
and theyre a whole lot of fun once you have one.


Thanks for the advice....


I will leave this last piece for you ppl to percieve, discuss, whatev. The US has been the lone top dog for over a decade.


Why do you insist on making this vapid propaganda announcement? If you believe that to be true say that is your opinion but do not come here and tell us 'how it is' while laughing at anyone who attempts disagreement by employing factual material disputing your 'perceptions'.


The US has been spending siginificantly more dough then russia has since the fall of the USSR. Do you honestly think all the money we've spent in R&D is to catch up with the ruskies?


I don't think the US have caught up and if they have it does not seem that they have been able to employ these new technologies to ward off environmental warfair as practiced by Russia.


"Q: Let me ask you specifically about last week's scare here in Washington, and what we might have learned from how prepared we are to deal with that (inaudible), at B'nai Brith.

A: Well, it points out the nature of the threat. It turned out to be a false threat under the circumstances. But as we've learned in the intelligence community, we had something called -- and we have James Woolsey here to perhaps even address this question about phantom moles. The mere fear that there is a mole within an agency can set off a chain reaction and a hunt for that particular mole which can paralyze the agency for weeks and months and years even, in a search. The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat of using some kind of a chemical weapon or a biological one. There are some reports, for example, that some countries have been trying to construct something like an Ebola Virus, and that would be a very dangerous phenomenon, to say the least. Alvin Toeffler has written about this in terms of some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races; and others are designing some sort of engineering, some sort of insects that can destroy specific crops. Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves."

So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important.

www.defenselink.mil...
DoD News Briefing
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen



I for one dont beleive a damn thing the russians say and I probably never will.


That is a smart thing to do so why do you believe them when they keep pronouncing to western audiences that the USSR fell and that they are now a third world state posing no threat to anyone? Do you often seem them acting the the militaristic US ways?


The USSR was all of smoke and mirrors during its run anyways, nothing more. Nothing less. Russia is a country that is rebuilding from the ground up.


And if you believe this you are as misinformed , or plain ignorant, as one can be about these issues.


So forgive me if I have a hard time believing a country that is a shell of its former self is somehow superior to a country that spends, and has for over the decade, significantly larger amount of dough on R&D. The US spends more on its military then russias entire GDP.


I don't forgive ignorance when it's chosen over the reality that even a little bit of research would expose.

Stellar


ape

posted on Jan, 5 2007 @ 02:43 PM
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how exactly are the russians ahead of the US ? there is no evidence of this what so ever, I find it very odd that you disregard actual fact and the spending it takes to fund such programs as DEW and other advanced technologies. the US is a world leader who is very open about it's DEW capabilites that are not classified and this is something you dont see coming out of russia, they cant afford to even deploy and patrol SSBN's as shown in 2002 so what makes you think they can even come close to matching the US? it's nothing but fantasy and speculation, you never provide anything that is concrete stellar just speculation, the US dominates the sea, ground and air and this is a fact, anyone who disputes does not know the US capability.

it's very unusual to call somene ignorant when they dont agree with your personal opinion, especially when that opinion is not backed by any solid evidence to support it. the US is trying to keep up with russia and all of the evidence you have researched has made you come to this conclusion? you're a mad man.

[edit on 5-1-2007 by ape]





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