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Originally posted by StellarX
Say's the person who celebrates the starf of a new year by getting completely wasted.
When one does research you normally read things and when you engage in discussion with ignorant vain people sometimes such source material can give them a moments pause before they indulge in more character attacks...
I am sure there are at least a few people who actually appreciate the fact that they investigate my claims as thoroughly as they may be interested to.
I am most certainly not here to 'prove' 'others' ( you , i presume) wrong as much as i am here to introduce some new material into the discussion. If you think i am here to prove you, and not your current beliefs, inaccurate you need to grow up as i would not care about your opinions if you did not attempt to post them as facts. This is not about you or me but about establishing based on the best information we have available to us.
I only expect those who want to engage in discussion to familiarize themselves with the source material. If the discussion does not interest you don't bother but if it does and you want to defend a certain point of view you simply must understand some of the material in question.
Thanks for the advice....
Why do you insist on making this vapid propaganda announcement? If you believe that to be true say that is your opinion but do not come here and tell us 'how it is' while laughing at anyone who attempts disagreement by employing factual material disputing your 'perceptions'.
I don't think the US have caught up and if they have it does not seem that they have been able to employ these new technologies to ward off environmental warfair as practiced by Russia.
"Q: Let me ask you specifically about last week's scare here in Washington, and what we might have learned from how prepared we are to deal with that (inaudible), at B'nai Brith.
A: Well, it points out the nature of the threat. It turned out to be a false threat under the circumstances. But as we've learned in the intelligence community, we had something called -- and we have James Woolsey here to perhaps even address this question about phantom moles. The mere fear that there is a mole within an agency can set off a chain reaction and a hunt for that particular mole which can paralyze the agency for weeks and months and years even, in a search. The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat of using some kind of a chemical weapon or a biological one. There are some reports, for example, that some countries have been trying to construct something like an Ebola Virus, and that would be a very dangerous phenomenon, to say the least. Alvin Toeffler has written about this in terms of some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races; and others are designing some sort of engineering, some sort of insects that can destroy specific crops. Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves."
So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important.
That is a smart thing to do so why do you believe them when they keep pronouncing to western audiences that the USSR fell and that they are now a third world state posing no threat to anyone? Do you often seem them acting the the militaristic US ways?
And if you believe this you are as misinformed , or plain ignorant, as one can be about these issues.
I don't forgive ignorance when it's chosen over the reality that even a little bit of research would expose.
by iblis
More to Ape: Simply because Russia does not use, or practice, or deploy its triad much does not mean it's non-existant, merely that it doesn't get out much. Regardless of what that lack of practice means, the fact remains it is operational.
he is not blithly mouthing off, nor producing facts out of nothing, nor is he making his opinion >fact such as Ape
As for complete naval superiority, that is to be questioned as we've yet, in recent times, to go against a modern power. Going after third-world countries with poor training, with inadequete equipment which are only -backed- by modern powers, does not qualify.
It's not that I have an issue with you, as a person Ape, but that I do not wish to be associated with you as a fellow American, as a fellow poster, and that I'd rather people not think of you as a representation of the American public -- As this is an international forums. I believe you do not do justice to our country through your posts, and that your deliberate and pointed attacks to other nations does not portray us as I'd like
posted by iblis
As sure as I am that you think what I said means nothing to you, somehow gets at me, it's really your lost.
Further, what supporters do you have, Ape? Will anyone post here, on this forum, and say that support the majority of what Ape says? And, saying that the United States is not superior in all things, which it isn't, is not attacking the country, merely stating it is not perfection. So if someone says they have a superior doodad or doohicky, it may very well be truth. We can't be for-certain, given nothing modern has ever been tested one vs. one in a Live Combat Situation.
As for those of other countries, I can't see why they wouldn't stand up >against the United States on these forums. If our representatives, for instance, yourself, attack and put down others, they have no other recourse but to adamanatly, to the point of silliness, defend their own. Besides this, we have not exactly been the friendly neighbors so many of us wish we were in the past several years
the ruskies lied about their current economic state saying that it was on par, or about to surpass the americans
One example out of many was stories about the USSR haveing a new long-range bomber powered by atomic engines called the "bounder"
America, in response to this news, was actually developing a nuclear powered long range bomber itself. But later back in 1958, it was later found out to be filled with Soviet mis- and dis-information the US discovered the russians had no such bomber that was in the works with those capabilities. It was just soviet propaganda.
Here's Soviet M-30-1 nuclear jet bomber.
By "nuclear" I mean not that it has nuclear bombs on board (surely, it has them, but that is not the matter), I mean it has NUCLEAR JET ENGINE.
Output of this engine was tremendous, allowing reaching hypersonic speeds (but shielding in 1950ies wasn't nearly as good to allow hypersonic cruise flights). But it had also TREMENDOUS radiation pollution.
It was succesfully tested and constructed in 1950ies, but never entered service because of VERY high radiation pollution.
www.technocracy.ca...
Originally posted by Iblis
Personally, I attended the Seattle Symphony at Benaroya Hall on New Year's, and there was much drinking to be had. Simply, alcohol consumption is a cultural tradition in many areas of the world, for New Year's, and I'd ask you not to harp on Semper for such a thing.
Personal attacks, especially blind ones, don't suit you, Stellar.
I mean that;you are one of the few on these forums to put up clear, concise arguments.
"Q: Let me ask you specifically about last week's scare here in Washington, and what we might have learned from how prepared we are to deal with that (inaudible), at B'nai Brith.
A: Well, it points out the nature of the threat. It turned out to be a false threat under the circumstances. But as we've learned in the intelligence community, we had something called -- and we have James Woolsey here to perhaps even address this question about phantom moles. The mere fear that there is a mole within an agency can set off a chain reaction and a hunt for that particular mole which can paralyze the agency for weeks and months and years even, in a search. The same thing is true about just the false scare of a threat of using some kind of a chemical weapon or a biological one. There are some reports, for example, that some countries have been trying to construct something like an Ebola Virus, and that would be a very dangerous phenomenon, to say the least. Alvin Toeffler has written about this in terms of some scientists in their laboratories trying to devise certain types of pathogens that would be ethnic specific so that they could just eliminate certain ethnic groups and races; and others are designing some sort of engineering, some sort of insects that can destroy specific crops. Others are engaging even in an eco- type of terrorism whereby they can alter the climate, set off earthquakes, volcanoes remotely through the use of electromagnetic waves."
So there are plenty of ingenious minds out there that are at work finding ways in which they can wreak terror upon other nations. It's real, and that's the reason why we have to intensify our efforts, and that's why this is so important.
DoD News Briefing
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen
We exceed in conventional warfare, though I will cede to you that Russia has much better counter-insurgency tactics. (If much more .. explosive, ones, at that.)]
To be fair, Semper, StellarX supports his arguments consistently with evidence. Therefore, no matter how invalid we might find what he says, he is not blithly mouthing off,
nor producing facts out of nothing, nor is he making his opinion fact such as Ape. While I agree 'ignorance' is a poor battlecry for him, it does suit the majority of his competition. [Ape.]
More to Ape: Simply because Russia does not use, or practice, or deploy its triad much does not mean it's non-existant, merely that it doesn't get out much. Regardless of what that lack of practice means, the fact remains it is operational.
Russia is a regional superpower, I'll admit, though I don't think there are any existing concrete definitions for such a thing. However, StellarX, you and I must agree that to project that power, and to maintain any power it does actually decide to project, is in question.
It is much more limited than the United State's capability, and of [very few] other countries.
I'd enjoy seeing what Russia and the United States could do with more-close cooperation, given that what Russia excels at militarily is, right now, what the United States needs, and the U.S., meanwhile, could open a great many economic and political venues for the relatively struggling nation.
And I'd enjoy if all of you here, who are reading this debate, or within it, read The Economist's latest report on Russian domestic policies. It's a large article, quite informative.
Regards--
Hunter
I have thrown mud with the best of them and if ATS allowed me to indulge myself semper would probably have gained the 'playground' respect he clearly does not have for me. Don't assume that my activities on ATS reflects what type of persistent and accurate insult i am capable of showering on deserving parties... Unlike ape and semper i could never get away with such blatant abuse on ATS so for the sake of enlightening ( well i like to believe that! ) a few interested parties i am doing my best not to call people what they deserve to be.
What does the volume or intensity of the insult have to do with the 'facts' or 'objective reality' in your opinion? Do you think i believe semper or ape are 'wrong' about their beliefs because they choose to defend them by the most ifantalie means possible? I can actually separate the insult from the fact but i must that your not wrong when you use it as a general standard to discover which idea or fact might have more to do with reality
The fast declining American economic situation as well as the active geophysical warfare campaign being waged against the US and allies.
How does the US exceed Russian capabilities if both current armed forces could be massed and transferred to a European battlefield of your choice? What about the equipment levels and employment of various technologies suggest to you that the US has a clear superiority
Ape assumes that a nuclear war will break out without tensions and that there will be no time for the Russians to deploy their SSBN's probably forgetting that such large scale preparations are hard to hide and that Russian SSBN's can mostly target the continental USA from their moorings and are protected by elaborate and extensive ABM defenses if they can not make it to sea in time.
I would like to mouth off a great deal more but clearly the mods only allow certain parties to indulge in such tantrums so here i am stuck to having to employ actual facts. All these tens of thousands of hours worth of research when i could have just relied on semper/ape's tactics! The world is such a unfair place
Originally posted by vK_man
the ruskies lied about their current economic state saying that it was on par, or about to surpass the americans
from where did you get this from semper, gorbachev in 1990 said USSR needs AID and is weakening
One example out of many was stories about the USSR haveing a new long-range bomber powered by atomic engines called the "bounder"
America, in response to this news, was actually developing a nuclear powered long range bomber itself. But later back in 1958, it was later found out to be filled with Soviet mis- and dis-information the US discovered the russians had no such bomber that was in the works with those capabilities. It was just soviet propaganda.
ussr never said anything and yes there was a nuclear powered aircraft
but created high amt of radioactive pollution so it never entered service
Here's Soviet M-30-1 nuclear jet bomber.
By "nuclear" I mean not that it has nuclear bombs on board (surely, it has them, but that is not the matter), I mean it has NUCLEAR JET ENGINE.
Output of this engine was tremendous, allowing reaching hypersonic speeds (but shielding in 1950ies wasn't nearly as good to allow hypersonic cruise flights). But it had also TREMENDOUS radiation pollution.
It was succesfully tested and constructed in 1950ies, but never entered service because of VERY high radiation pollution.
www.technocracy.ca...
you could find some info on these on russian websites:
www.narod.ru
www.xakep.ru
and keldyash centre also ....
[edit on 6-1-2007 by vK_man]
Originally posted by semperfoo
Unlike the russians the americans actually suceeded in building a nuclear powered bomber. It was called the B-70 Valkyrie. But it had a radiation problem to every time this bird flew.
And that was that. Neither the United States, nor the Soviet Union, nor any other country was ever able to develop a true atomic-powered aircraft. But a nuclear plane of sorts did manage to fly This was the NB-36H test airplane, authorized along with the X-6 design back in 1951. Its original B-36H airframe had been extensively modified, most notably with a 12-ton shielded crew capsule in the nose, a 4-ton lead disc shield in the middle and a number of large air intake and exhaust holes to cool the reactor in the aft section. The reactor was a 1000-kilowatt design weighing 35,000 pounds and situated in a removable mounting in the aft bomb bay Its operation was observed from the crew capsule by closed circuit television. When the plane was not being flown, the reactor was kept in a specially prepared pit near the runway at Convair's Fort Worth, Texas, facility.
NB-36H flew with its radioactive cargo 47 times between 1955 and 1957, and, although it did not power the airplane, the reactor provided considerable data on the effects of radiation emitted during night. Flying alongside NB-36H on every one of its flights was a Boeing C-97 Stratocruiser transport carrying a platoon of armed Marines ready to parachute down and surround the test airplane in case it crashed. This certainly deserved hazardous duty pay. Pity the poor troops assigned to this outfit, jocularly dubbed the "glow-in-the-dark platoon." Fortunately there never was a crash, and the test plane was eventually decommissioned at Fort Worth in late 1957. After languishing as a hulk for many months, it was scrapped.
www.megazone.org...
Originally posted by rogue1
With regards to Stellar, when he first came in here I consistently proved his sources wrong about Soviet era weaponry. His most often quoted source material was the " Soviet Military Power " reports by teh US DIA. These were constantly far overstated to justify the Reagan era defence budge. After the USSR fell it was discovered that none of these wonder weapons were produced or developed.
I provided many sources which disputed him, yet all he kept on doing was cutting and pasting the same quotes from some notepad document he has. I mean literally about 10 times, I just couldn't be bothered replying to him ( like talking to a war ) anymore, I notice in this post he is doing the same thing. He just regurgitates the same old BS hoping people will get bored - it works, he then claims the lack of another reply refuting the same things ( bearing in mind he has failed to rebuke any of the previous arguments disputing him ) as some sort of victory.
What is really funny about his behaviour is - as others have pointed out - he attempts to belittle people who disagree with him and then cries foul when they push back.
I remember a certain situation where h couldn't even distinguish between 2 completely different types of Russian SAM/ABM missiles. Even though I posted indisputable facts , the idiot still couldn't accept it. He jut resorted to his tactics of cutting and pasting his word document again - he really isn't as smart as some people think, LMAO. Some people are easily dazzled by BS.
Another interesting fact about stellar is, he is a South African who has never left South Africa, he gets all his " world experience " from the Internet.
[edit on 6-1-2007 by rogue1]
Originally posted by rogue1
With regards to Stellar, when he first came in here I consistently proved his sources wrong about Soviet era weaponry
. His most often quoted source material was the " Soviet Military Power " reports by teh US DIA.
These were constantly far overstated to justify the Reagan era defence budge.
After the USSR fell it was discovered that none of these wonder weapons were produced or developed.
I provided many sources which disputed him,
yet all he kept on doing was cutting and pasting the same quotes from some notepad document he has.
I mean literally about 10 times, I just couldn't be bothered replying to him ( like talking to a war ) anymore,
I notice in this post he is doing the same thing. He just regurgitates the same old BS hoping people will get bored - it works,
he then claims the lack of another reply refuting the same things ( bearing in mind he has failed to rebuke any of the previous arguments disputing him ) as some sort of victory.
What is really funny about his behaviour is - as others have pointed out - he attempts to belittle people who disagree with him and then cries foul when they push back.
I remember a certain situation where h couldn't even distinguish between 2 completely different types of Russian SAM/ABM missiles. Even though I posted indisputable facts , the idiot still couldn't accept it.