Ak-47 vs. M-16

The 7.62x39 fired by the AK and 7.62x51 are completely different rounds. The former loses stability after 300 meters, while the latter can reach out and touch people at 600 easily.

The 5.56x45mm is superior to the 7.62x39mm in basically all areas. The 7.62x51 outranges and outpowers the 5.56 easily, but I believe the 5.56 is a better general all around round. While the 7.62x51 is better for sniping and MMGs.

Like I said, to each their own...but the 5.56 will always start to drop sooner than the x39...unless you find some variant of it i suppose...long range i prefer x54 7.62 or 8.6 70mm, though I never shot one, I saw others shoot it, and it looks absolutely smooth.

You need to check out the data on that statement about .223 dropping sooner than 7.62x39 !!! No !! 5.56x45 is way flatter shooting!At 500yds the ak bullet in the same barrel will drop 3.5 feet(approx') more than .223. And furthuremore the "new" ammo for 5.56 (ss-109/m-855) is punching nice neat holes through our adversaries, a little too neat. The1/7 twist is good for stabilizing and at high velocity will fracture the projectile but, too many people are walking/hobbling away after taking hits. The 14.5 inch barrel of the m-4 doesn't allow for high enough velocity either. The 6.8 or possibly a type of 6.0 mm is the future. Basically the weapons in use today are the same ones used 30 years ago in S.E. Asia just reworked a little for reliability and range. The new caliber will help alleviate the terminal effects problems. 7.62x51 NATO is a 1000 yard round not 600. M-16a4's are dropping folks at 600 and beyond......

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by bign]

[Edited on 13-5-2004 by bign]

Originally posted by Hard Red
Like I said, to each their own...but the 5.56 will always start to drop sooner than the x39...unless you find some variant of it i suppose...long range i prefer x54 7.62 or 8.6 70mm, though I never shot one, I saw others shoot it, and it looks absolutely smooth.

Actually, the 7.62x39 has a much shorter range then the 5.56. The 39 has a much lower velocity and is much more easily affected by gravity and wind. If you're looking for legs, always go to the 51 or 54. But the 5.56mm is superior in almost every way to the 39.

Also, the 7.62x39 round is not a better stopper then the 5.56mm, at least under 300m. The M855 and SS-109 frag and yaw on impact, produces massive wounds. The 39 has great penetration of the body, but otherwise only produces a small would. Here are cross sectionsof wound profiles

www.steyrscout.org...

We'll have to tell the Iraquis/Taliban/Al-Quaeda to be more cooperative with regards to wounds cuz after action reports are telling a different tale than whatever they are shooting into for the tests. The 1/12 twist of the older ar's made the bullet more prone to tumble/yaw on impact but, after adoption of ss-109 faster twists were needed .There really is a pressing need to find the answer. Black Hills 75 gr ammo is the rage and people are more cooperative when hit but, I think 6.8 is probably," in" for the future. Which makes one hope--(know??) the newer saws are easily convertible to the new caliber ie- HK 43 evaluated by us and others in 5.56x45. Also a number of "special units " have deployed with m-14/m-1a variants. Take a look at Springfield Armory's site, check out the SOCOM M-1A. Seals among others regularly train with M-14s and outfit the entire team with them when terrain etc.. calls for 7.62x51

We'll have to tell the Iraquis/Taliban/Al-Quaeda to be more cooperative with regards to wounds cuz after action reports are telling a different tale than whatever they are shooting into for the tests. The 1/12 twist of the older ar's made the bullet more prone to tumble/yaw on impact but, after adoption of ss-109 faster twists were needed .There really is a pressing need to find the answer. Black Hills 75 gr ammo is the rage and people are more cooperative when hit but, I think 6.8 is probably," in" for the future. Which makes one hope--(know??) the newer saws are easily convertible to the new caliber ie- HK 43 evaluated by us and others in 5.56x45. Also a number of "special units " have deployed with m-14/m-1a variants. Take a look at Springfield Armory's site, check out the SOCOM M-1A. Seals among others regularly train with M-14s and outfit the entire team with them when terrain etc.. calls for 7.62x51

Clarification is in order. x39 rounds only, no shooting at the steel with any other but x39!!

Glad that was clarified. Bleeding is really no joy at all!

Sorry I kept having the x54 round in mind...my bad...though I don't say that often. I thought you were talking x54...cool

Sounds like I'm not supposed to talk about actual anti-personnel use?? Or yes? Don't want to upset anybody. But anyway, hope we see better ammo for our forces soon.

Originally posted by Hard Red
Sorry I kept having the x54 round in mind...my bad...though I don't say that often. I thought you were talking x54...cool

The 54 round is good for sniping. It's too heavy and kicks too hard for all around infantry use.

The AK 103 uses x54 using a coversion kit...I really dont care about the kick...unless I'm firing using one hand, the kick isnt an issue with me...I'm 6'4 so I've got a good baseonce I part my legs a little and I'm a little over 250 lbs. kick isnt a factor for me...but it comes down to personal preference...like the argument you hear some ppl say about how ladies should carry a 380 or 9mm (no difference to me except probably in technical specs) I say carry what you're comfortable using.

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by Hard Red]

Originally posted by Kozzy
Also, the 7.62x39 round is not a better stopper then the 5.56mm, at least under 300m. The M855 and SS-109 frag and yaw on impact, produces massive wounds. The 39 has great penetration of the body, but otherwise only produces a small would. Here are cross sectionsof wound profiles

www.steyrscout.org...

Glad to see someone understands the yaw effect!

...Yeah everybody understands yaw and probably has seen wound channels of a great many bullet types. But it has come to light (slowly for some) that the newer type ss109 and the newer twist rate are punching nice neat holes in the enemy! Some have likened it to the same effect as 22mag or 22lr! Multiple,---multiple hits needed to put them down. Not like the 55gr in a 1/12" twist barrel, whose wound channels were horrific (depending which side your on). The hollowpoint ammo used in the M-40 (a-1,a-3) are the way we need to lean in .223. They are kosher to use because they were not designed to create a greater wounding capacity they were designed to be super accurate match ammo! And created big channels and wicked terminal effects as a byproduct!!!!Language and supposed intent are everything

[Edited on 14-5-2004 by bign]

[Edited on 19-5-2004 by bign]

To get back on track, actually if I could only pick one weapon I probaly wouldn't choose either. I'd be happier with my M1A or an STG58 or a G3. One can service a wider number of situations with 7.62x51, on this we all can agree, huh?

My Bulgarian SLR101S with the green synthetic furnature:



Don't have a pic yet, but I bought one of these saturday at the gunshow...VEPR K "Tactical model":



I traded my SAR-1 towards the VEPR...wish I hadn't...miss it already, but the VEPR was $640 bucks!

My SAR-1:



As you can tell I really dig AK's! I've had a Egyptian MISR S/A...a ROMANIAN wasr Hi-cap, and a Chinese preban side folder Polytech also.

i would say an M-16. i have an AR-15 (Bushmaster, 16" bbl.) its been shot well over 1000 times and has never jammed. it will also shoot 1/2-1/4 MOA groupings on demand with or without scope, also depending on range and size of target.

Here it is in a nutshell...The AK-47 is, by far, the greatest AND most trustworthy gun out there...various improvements over the decades have seen to that. longer barrel...improved gas op chambering. tactical attachment bays on newer models. multifunctional stocks. the ability to chamber x54 rounds. baby versions. ease of manufacture. an experimental round AK is working on that tries to mimic small rounds uranium depleted ammo without actually using the expensive materials required. more grooves to stay true longer than previously done. et al. AK rocks.

The AK for sure. I actualy would prefer a modified SKS rifle or a Dragonov... there is no doubt that the AK is the more superior weapon. the 7.62x39mm round is an exelent all around calibre. but seriously we should put the toys away and convert over to 7.62x54mm

Originally posted by Jaypeth
The AK for sure. I actualy would prefer a modified SKS rifle or a Dragonov... there is no doubt that the AK is the more superior weapon. the 7.62x39mm round is an exelent all around calibre. but seriously we should put the toys away and convert over to 7.62x54mm

No, the 7.62x39 is inaccurate and heavy for questionable stopping power. Why do you think the AK-74 was chambered in 5.45x39? Because it tries to mimic the 5.56x45mm NATO, which was a superior caliber.

There's a reason Armies all over the world have switched over from heavy calibers.