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Was Victor Litvinenko a Terrorist?

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posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 07:04 AM
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Stu, your theory is beginning to get some traction. This on homelandsecurityus:

Litvinenko

My question now is (and since you're on-top of the research I ask you, stu) is 'the package' was delivered at The Millenium, where did it go from there? If you establish a 'chain of custody' of the Po-210, where is it now?




posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 01:32 PM
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Thats were the trail goes dead, at least publicly. We can trace the Po-210 on it's way to London, via Germany, but the trail gets hazy after that as everyone is contaminated, so it would be guess work.

One has to ask the question, if Litvinenko met the other chaps in the hotel, were they where contaminated, what was the purpose of the meeting in the Sushi bar with the Italian? I have heard that the Italian's claims to having certain degrees are dubious as the Universities have not heard of him, so that raises question marks about is he who he says he is.

Then there is the Oligarch, Berezovsky. What is his involvement in this? He is the only one who could finance the aquisition of Po-210, has beef against Putin and is known to support Chechen Rebels.

One question springs to mind, who else has converted to Islam out of the persons involved so far. Is Berezovsky a Muslim? Even if he isn't, why is he so closely linked to the Chechen's and Ahmed Zakayev in particular, who is a most unsavoury character and makes Osama look like a pussy cat from some of the things he is supposed to have done.

[edit on 14/12/06 by stumason]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 05:44 PM
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Zakayev cannot really be compared to Bin Laden, or infamous Chechen separatists like Basayev (who personally killed hundreds, and carried out terrorist attacks on civilians). Zakayev is more of behind the scenes guy, now responsible for the Rebels' PR campaign (not too successful after Beslan) and ties to international groups and government. This guy is on Russia's hit list, but for some reason UK is safeguarding him. In the bigger scheme of the War On Terror, trash like him should be thrown out of UK, and any European country for that matter.


And I do not know to what extend Berezovsky was/is involved with these individuals. He is not Muslim, he is a billionaire and will not risk losing his money to be involved directly with terrorists, and he is more concerned about Russian political climate that Chechnya or Litvinenko and his plots. The only reason Berezovsky is involved with them, is because they all share their hatered for Putin, and want to see him gone. If Berezovsky had his way initially though, and became President or high-level official in Russia he would be facing off against Chechens and ex-spy's rather than cooperating with them.

So his involvement is only as an opportunist. However he seems to be in charge of the whole anti-Putin campaign going on, and if someone knows what goes on behind the scenes is him. This is why I think he knew more about Litvinenko's death than your average citizen. Even if he had nothing to do with it, he knows he can be next. And it doesn't have to be the Russian government that gets him (and believe me they want to if they didn't fear political reprecussions from Britain)- it could be mafia groups, or whoever else he made enemies with (and it's a long list).


In my opinion UK is inviting all this chaos and trouble themselves, because they open their country as an asylum to these shady inviduals. Berezovsky I can understand- he advocated more pro-Western policies as a political figure in Russia under Yeltsin. By why provide asylum for Chechen rebels like Zakayev. Does Britain really need any more radical Islamists? If you are going to let people like that into your country willingly, sooner or later someone will try to liquidate them, and you could get in the way. People like that have a short life span, which almost always ends on a violent note.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:02 PM
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Ahh, I had confused Zakayev with Basayev when I compared against OBL.. All these names make it extremely tricky to maintain the thought process... I am doing well, in my opinion, but I had confused those two in my above post.

I do know that Berezovsky is quite well linked to Chechen rebels. To what end, who know. I will see what I can turn up.

I think we can be pretty certain this was no poisoning though.

But what is going on?



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:12 PM
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I have found this. I am trying to verify the authenticity of the article:


Chechen rebels could have an atomic bomb, Boris Berezovsky, Russian tycoon currently living in self-imposed exile in Great Britain, told the Komsomolskaya Pravda daily on the phone. Russian security officials refused to comment on Berezovsky’s statement.

Komsomolskaya Pravda correspondents got in touch with the controversial tycoon and harsh critic of Vladimir Putin, asking him to comment on the Chechen rebels’ call for a cease-fire issued last week. Berezovsky denied allegations that it was he who had originally come up with the cease-fire initiative.

“I am truly flattered, I have been away from Chechnya and Russia for five years now and I am still believed to be in charge of all the comings and goings there. No, it was not me,” Berezovsky said.

Berezovsky is convinced that Vladimir Putin should accept the invitation of the separatist leaders and launch peace talks with them. “Or else, he will have to face the Hague tribunal, along with Milosevic,” Berezovsky said.

He also lashed out at Western leaders, effectively accusing them of double standards as regards to Chechnya. “The West pities Maskhadov, and at the same time flirts with Putin. But when things go really bad in Chechnya the West will gladly bring in their peacekeeping troops there. For Russia that would be a resounding defeat… Russia will not only lose Chechnya — it will lose its independence.”

Basayev and Maskhadov have remained invincible for a decade, Berezovsky said. Moreover, lately they have come into possession of an atomic bomb. “It is a small portable device which had not been used until now for only one reason: because some necessary element was missing,” he said citing what he referred to as “credible sources”.

Russian security officials refused to comment on Berezovsky’s allegations. “We do not believe it necessary to comment on statements, especially nonsensical ones, made by people placed on international wanted list,” a security official told Komsomolskaya Pravda.

Source



If true, this is exactly the nuclear weapon that requires a Polonium-Berillium trigger....



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:15 PM
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We have this:


What was especially intriguing about these new charges was the plethora of reports suggesting that they were true. Strana.ru, the Kremlin-connected website, quoted "informed sources close to law enforcement agencies" as saying that when Berezovsky was deputy secretary of the Kremlin's Security Council in 1997, he had urged the Chechen rebel field commanders to start trading in kidnap victims and had used ransom payments as means to finance them. According to the website, the FSB had tapes of conversations to this effect between Berezovsky and top Chechen rebel officials. For his part, Berezovsky did not deny that in his official capacity he had been in contact with many of the Chechen rebel leaders, including Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basaev. He even confirmed he had handed over US$2 million to Basaev for the repair of a cement factory. But Berezovsky denied any wrongdoing, noting that then President Boris Yeltsin's administration had signed a peace agreement with Maskhadov's government, in which Basaev then served as prime minister. Berezovsky also insisted he had played a key role in freeing hostages in Chechnya, including twenty-one captured OMON special police troops.
Source



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:20 PM
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I doubt Berezovsky wants to be identified as having close or direct ties to Chechen separatists. Although he is a declared criminal in Russia, on corruption and money laundering charges, there is still a possibility for him going back to Russia and assuming a political role, not completely discounting Presidency (although very doubtful by now). If this happens, he cannot be known to have ties to terrorists, or any such possibility would be compromised for him.

So if there is any involvement, it will be highly confidential and unknown to the public. I am sure there are some ties between him and less-than-legal groups, but what they are exactly will be hard to prove.


And even though Zakayev is not Basayev or an active commander, he is still a terrorist (whatever that means by today's standards). He is largely responsible for organizing and orchestrating Chechen ties to the outside world- i.e. getting weapons in Chehcnya and Russia (mostly from Middle East), recruiting insurgents, possibly targeting Russian/pro-Russian interests outside Russia. The later role is possibly what Polonium case might have involved, but as of now it is very unclear.

If you remember, Russian special agents assassinated a high profile Chechen rebel leader (Yandarbiyev), in Quatar. Back then it caused a big scandal among the Muslim world, because Yandarbiyev was considered completely safe in an asylum in a Middle Eastern country. That assassination proved that no Chechen warlord is safe wherever he is, and that includes their collaborators and partners. So I am sure Zakayev, and Berezovsky to a lesser extent, among several other less known individuals in Britain and Europe, would be shaken by Litvinenko's death, if it indeed was an assassination. However it seems that they are largely unbothered and continue to appear in public, instead of going into hiding.


Also one of the reasons I doubt that Russian government killed Litvinenko, is because if they assassinated anyone it would be someone of higher importance- like Zakayev. But why go through with such an elaborate assassination (if thats what it was), to simply off some angry ex-cop. Litvinenko really was a minor critic, because untill now few paid attention to his rants.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:27 PM
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Well, it appears that Berezovsky has very public links to Chechens.

As for the rest of your post, largely in agreement.

So, what are your thoughts on a possible Chechen suitcase nuke? Po-210 is needed for those devices.

Could it be possible that the men had obtained the Po-210 for the trigger for one of these devices, as they do need changing every few months as the Po-210 decays.

Berezovsky has the financial clout to purchase what he likes.

He has openly admitted himself to having links to Chechens.

He courts Chechen rebels on a regular basis.

It's pretty hard to deny he has links to them.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:28 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
I have found this. I am trying to verify the authenticity of the article:


Chechen rebels could have an atomic bomb, Boris Berezovsky, Russian tycoon currently living in self-imposed exile in Great Britain, told the Komsomolskaya Pravda daily on the phone. Russian security officials refused to comment on Berezovsky’s statement....


If true, this is exactly the nuclear weapon that requires a Polonium-Berillium trigger....



This is an old article. Both Basayev and Maskhadov have been killed. Zakayev and Doku Umarov (Basayev's replacement as Chechen separatist leader) on the other hand are the ones planning operations out now. However recently there was very little action on the part of the rebels. Very few attacks in Chechnya, and no terrorist acts for almost a year now. This could indicate that their forces are regrouping for a large-scale strike on the Federal Forces, or they are preparing a terror attack on civilians.

And the sooner UK extradiates Berezovsky and Zakayev to Russia, the sooner these plots and the whole affair can be over with. Unfortunately Britain is showing no indication that it is willing to do this. This could really worsen their relations with Russia, because the two are top-wanted criminals.

And now blame-the-Putin game is obviously failing on this assumed assassination. So now Berezovsky needs to watch himself so the blame or suspicion doesn't default to him.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:38 PM
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Originally posted by stumason
Well, it appears that Berezovsky has very public links to Chechens.

As for the rest of your post, largely in agreement.

So, what are your thoughts on a possible Chechen suitcase nuke? Po-210 is needed for those devices.

Could it be possible that the men had obtained the Po-210 for the trigger for one of these devices, as they do need changing every few months as the Po-210 decays.

Berezovsky has the financial clout to purchase what he likes.

He has openly admitted himself to having links to Chechens.

He courts Chechen rebels on a regular basis.

It's pretty hard to deny he has links to them.


I dont know much about Po-210 or suitcase nukes, but if your theory on the ties between the two is true- then Europe and Russia have much bigger things to worry about than a few radioactive poisonings. And again- why would they risk assembling this weapon or dirty bomb in England and.or Germany, when it would be much easier to do so in some ex-Soviet republic, or Middle East, or Russia itself.

As for Berezovsky- if he continues his relations with the Chechens, he will end up as the rest of them- dead. Whether it will be Russia's doing, or internal strife between rebel actions and mafias- remains to be seen.

It is already known that Chechen rebels are split into several estranged groups. Some of these groups are very hostile to one another. Also there is the Chechen mafia- mostly present in Russia and Eastern Europe, but I heard it surfaced in UK recently as well- no doubt because Zakayev is there. These are groups you do not want to get involved with- especially if you are a Russian billionaire- as you could become their enemy in a quick turn of events.

Now I think it is more obvious why such a large investigation is taking place in UK and Germany. Maybe the while the media was concerned with Putin, they knew from the start that it had ties to terrorist groups. If it was Russia- an investigation would not have made much of a difference, as Uk cannot be expected to intimidate Russia out of carrying out such assassinations. However if it was terrorists- whatever is uncovered could prevent many deaths.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:39 PM
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I know it was old. From a few years back, in fact. But the subject matter is pertinent to the discussion, as just because the old leaders are dead, it does not discount the fact they still have a weapon..

The very fact that he claims they have a nuke that needs Po-210 as a trigger is interesting.

I am still troubled by who would gain from a dirty bomb/nuke attack. It all depends on who the perpetrators want to get the blame.

Will it be a Muslim strike against the West for "insert reason here". Or an attack on Russia? Or perhaps an attempt to frame Russia, or Iran?

There are missing links in this story, apart from the fact that Litvinenko wasn't poisoned. I think it is quite clear that himself and the others were up to something far more nefarious.

PS: Kovtun is now in a coma. Doesn't look good for him. Not sure on the health of the others but I understand they are in a bad way.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:48 PM
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Well- if it is Chechens planning a terror attack it's understandable why they would want to go-all-out. They lost the War in Chechnya, and now the remainder of the rebels is being liquidated. All of the innitial commanders and leaders were long killed. The war is over as well, and except for a few random attacks the rebels can't inflict much damage on Russian or pro-Russian Chechen troops.

So this might be their last chance to "avenge" their loss. They don't care for consequences, they don't care about politics. They have no chance to get back up, and no chance to remain capable of fighting for very long.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 06:55 PM
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Disturbing stuff....

So, if this is true, you think they might actually try to nuke Russia? Or would they attempt to start something bigger by nuking a western power?

You seem to know more about Russian political machinations than I, how would these people think? I can only look at it from a Western point of view.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 07:12 PM
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If, and only if it's Chechens, the only country in danger is Russia. Regular separatists don't have beef with anyone else for the most part. Their focus is against Russia and territories within Russian Federation. This is why I don't understand what their dirty bombs, or components of bombs would be doing in Europe (which is on high alert as it is).

If it's anyone besides Chechens, my guess is your guess- anyone could be targeted. As you said there is no evidence so far where Polonium came from before Germany. So far there isn't even definitive tie to terrorism.

However you can be sure if something big happens in Russia, such as a major terrorist attack, the effects will be widespread, but not to a degree of 9/11. Russia will outright demand extradition to Russia of at least a few dozen individuals like Zakayev and Berezovsky from UK. It might cut its ties to the Muslim nations it is currently cooperating with, such as Iran, Syria, and Palestine, if it finds they were involved. And it could tremendously alter the War On Terror.

I don't think Europe is in any danger because Litvinenko and others who were involved were so focused on their anti-Putin campaign. I doubt they had reason to help in preparation of attack against any Western nation. And I doubt that they would have been successful anyway, whether it's Western Europe or Russia. This has amateur and recklessness written all over it.

[edit on 14-12-2006 by maloy]

[edit on 14-12-2006 by maloy]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 07:26 PM
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Hmmm.... Darkness surrounds us...Hard to predict, the future is....


But, Yoda impressions aside, I do believe this does look like a possible amateurish effort, whatever they were up too.

Someone ballsed it up big time and now 1 man is dead and 3 others are dying.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:01 PM
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I believe it was an assassination, and no accident or suicide. Who could be behind such an assassination? Many say Putin did it, because Berezovsky and Litvinenko are enemies of Putin. And Putin have access to this rare and expensive Polonium.

Who was the target? Litvinenko? I believe Berezovsky was the main target. If not for the assassination itself, it would certainly cause problems for him. He is in the spotlight now. Lots of people and media are digging up stuff about him and his Chechen friends. Berezovsky is no angel, he would rather prefer they didn't snoop too much into his business. But if the polonium came from suitcase nukes' triggers, do they neccessarily have to be from Berezovsky's nukes? Does he or his Chechen friends even have suitcase nukes? Maybe they do...

Berezovsky has other enemies than Putin. Enemies who might (also) have access to suitcase nukes. There's Mogilevich. Maybe he arranged this attack against Berezovsky, with or without the help and backing by Putin/FSB? Or maybe his group was hired by someone to carry out this job?

Litvinenko once saved Berezovsky's life. I don't believe Berezovsky would harm Litvinenko in any way. He would never pull off a circus like this just to try to blame Putin for it. Why use polonium? Who is Scaramella? Polonium was used to cause a certain effect regarding media's attention. The blame game. There are so many elements in this case. Some of these elements are obviously distractions planted in order to confuse and hide/twist facts. I hope we find out what's true and what's not.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 09:30 PM
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I believe it was an assassination, and no accident or suicide. Who could be behind such an assassination? Many say Putin did it, because Berezovsky and Litvinenko are enemies of Putin. And Putin have access to this rare and expensive Polonium.


I don't but the Assasination theory, but you know that


The Po-210 would not be hard to come buy for a man with some cash. it is, after all, commercially available.



Who was the target? Litvinenko? I believe Berezovsky was the main target. If not for the assassination itself, it would certainly cause problems for him. He is in the spotlight now. Lots of people and media are digging up stuff about him and his Chechen friends. Berezovsky is no angel, he would rather prefer they didn't snoop too much into his business.


Maybe Berezovsky ordered the Po-210 for his Chechen friends nukes. Due to the short half life of the Po-210, the triggers in the suitcase nukes need changing. They are old style nukes, more modern ones have other triggers that do not changing.

It is entirely possible that this was just an accident in the handling. Maybe that is why it took Litvinenko so long to go to the Hospital, because he didn't want to arouse suspicion. Between the timing of the poisoning and admission, that is ample time to conceal what they were up too.



Berezovsky has other enemies than Putin. Enemies who might (also) have access to suitcase nukes. There's Mogilevich. Maybe he arranged this attack against Berezovsky, with or without the help and backing by Putin/FSB? Or maybe his group was hired by someone to carry out this job?


Berezovsky has so little security, one could off him rather easily. This Po-210 plot that is in the media seems so complex and liable to failure (which we have seen) that it seems counter productive. All it has served is too whip up a storm and focus attention on people that would otherwise not be cared about.

The trail left by Kovtun and the fact he and the others are all ill, seems to counter any "killing" theory. Kovtun is clearly the one who brought the Po-210 into the UK.

Kovtun, his childhood friend Lugovoi and Berezovsky are all very close. It doesn't seem right that Berezovsky would off them all, especially seeing as Kovtun brought the stuff into the UK himself. Or that Kovtun would kill himself, his two friends and Litvinenko.

If your going to stick to the assasination theory, the only thing that springs to mind as a method would be some sort of radiological landmine in the room, that sprayed them all. But this doesn't explain the trail of Po-210 left by Kovtun prior to his meeting with the others.



Litvinenko once saved Berezovsky's life. I don't believe Berezovsky would harm Litvinenko in any way. He would never pull off a circus like this just to try to blame Putin for it. Why use polonium? Who is Scaramella? Polonium was used to cause a certain effect regarding media's attention. The blame game. There are so many elements in this case. Some of these elements are obviously distractions planted in order to confuse and hide/twist facts. I hope we find out what's true and what's not.


I don't believe this was ever meant to be public.

This was some sort of plot by the 4 men in the Hotel, possibly involving Berezovsky as the money man, to supply Po-210 to a third party.

Kovtun acquired it in Russia, with Berezovsky's money.

He then brought it to the Uk for delivery to Berezovsky. Litvinenko, acting as Berezovsky's front man, met Kovtun and his associates in the Hotel.

Something happened there that caused them all to be infected, probably a mistake in handling.

This was never meant to be public, as this would expose the third party and whatever scheme they had for the Po-210.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 10:38 PM
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Originally posted by stumason

Something happened there that caused them all to be infected, probably a mistake in handling.

This was never meant to be public, as this would expose the third party and whatever scheme they had for the Po-210.

This is actually an interesting theory. Not impossible.



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 10:41 PM
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Thankyou...

Would you believe it all came together over a few pints of abbot down the pub.....



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 11:33 PM
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this is all like james bond, it interests me so much


you've got me checking this board often for any new post you've got


well researched and great theories


just curious, why do you call him victor? i thought it was alex or am i mistaken somewhere



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