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Holocaust - Fact or Fiction?

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posted on Dec, 13 2006 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by jtma508
There's more to Rudolph and his work than you present here. I suggest that you read this article:

Chemistry of Auschwitz




Eh, where exactly is there more to Rudolf in that sense?


I do not believe that Rudolf's offense would be criminal in the United States of America where citizens enjoy the protection of the First Amendment (a protection that would be lost were people like Rudolf and his hero Remer ever to come to power here). Not only do I disagree with such criminal prosecution on principle, but I think that it is counterproductive in that it gives people like Rudolf the ability to claim persecution. My task here, however, is to discuss the history of claims concerning the chemistry of Auschwitz-Birkenau and evaluate their validity. The fact that I think that people ought to be permitted to spread untruths does not make untruths into truths.


Richard J. Green is on an agenda here. Nowhere in his article does he even begin to debunk or refute the evidence presented by Rudolf.

In fact, I challenge anyone to come up with anything even remotely refuting Rudolf´s report.



The control used in the measurements of Leuchter and Rudolf is biased. They contain Prussian blue as the major form of cyanide and the kinetics of Prussian blue formation are far from obvious. Cyanide residues, not in the form of Prussian blue are far more susceptible to weathering away.


This is fluff. Meaningless propagandic statements without a single shread of scientifically based evidence. Green is babbling.

Here too:



Leuchter's primary mistake is his initial assumption that exposure to HCN must result in the formation of Prussian blue. 34 Another error is his claim that the delousing facilities were exposed to less HCN than the homicidal chambers. It turns out that it is more difficult to kill lice than it is to kill humans. Leuchter's sensitivity is not good and it is doubtful that his samples were chosen carefully in regard to being sheltered from the elements. Concentration of cyanide in the gas chambers (at least cyanide not complexed to iron) is at levels less than 1 mg/kg. 35 Additionally, Leuchter should have taken as his control an ordinary building at Auschwitz-Birkenau, such as a barracks. Do the homicidal gas chambers contain more cyanide compounds than an ordinary barracks? The answer is yes as discussed below. A later investigator, Germar Rudolf 36 has made many of these same mistakes albeit more carefully; these issues are discussed in more depth in section V.


That´s outrageous!

Not only does green clearly try to patronize the findings by both experts Leuchter and Rudolf, he does not offer any shred of proof!!!!



The story of the Rudolf Report begins with Otto Remer. Remer was a general during the Nazi regime and put down the attempted coup against Hitler in 1944. 41 Remer was a Holocaust denier and was on trial in Germany for inciting race hatred.


Sure. Green sets the stage and tone where he puts Rudolf straight away on the same level as Remer. Rudolf has distanced himself several times of Remer and his ideologies.



In considering the forensic measurements, I will make the not necessarily warranted assumptions that Rudolf and Leuchter can be trusted to have handled their samples carefully and honestly.


Again, preposterous! These are man of science! "Can be trusted to have handled their samples carefully and honestly"... Is this Green´s main argument?

Very, very cheap attempt at debunking a sound report I say.

Feh!




posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 08:30 AM
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Ya gotta love this


The anti-zionists that attended the conference in support of the Iranian leader are now going to get excommunicated if the Chief Rabbi and others get their wishes.


Rabbis Call to Excommunicate Neturei Karta Members in Iran

[edit on 12/14/2006 by shots]



posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 10:01 AM
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Truth4hire :

you want a rebuttal of the pseudo scientific dishonesty used ok :

by accident or design they ignored the permeability to hCN gas of the wall blocks they sampled , leading them to take core samples and chippings , Not surface scrapings . the low perpeability of these materials to HCN skewed thier results , as thier " samples " contained a high proportion of virgin material that could not have been exposed to HCN gas however high the concentrations in the chambers .

there you go .

the revisionist were guilty of chipping off , or in one case drilling a core from a block to obtain " samples "

so when they got thier results , the assay of HCN in the " sample " was low -

as they dishonestly engineered it to be . [ my opinion ]


you can cut it either way :

they took the samples in ignorance , not knowing the correct permeability values , and so thier methodology was flawed - and the result meanigless

or :

they deliberatly took core samples in order to pack the sample with virgin material from the heart of the block - for the purpose of fabricating the claim that HCN levels in the chamber were low

either way - thier PPM value for HCN in the blocks is NOT a valid indicator of the levels of HCN use in the chamber

here is a graphic to illustrate :




posted on Dec, 14 2006 @ 10:09 AM
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Originally posted by Truth4hire
Not only does green clearly try to patronize the findings by both experts Leuchter and Rudolf, he does not offer any shred of proof!!!!


Experts? I thought it was clearly established that Leuchter was a historian and by his own admission was practicing engineering without credentials and without a license. Am I somehow wrong on this?



posted on Dec, 15 2006 @ 11:15 PM
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Cant the description that Leuchter gives of himself be checked?


I have for the past nine years worked with most, if not all, of the states in the United States having capital punishment. I design and manufacture execution equipment of all types, including electrocution systems, lethal injection equipment, gallows and gas chamber hardware. I have consulted for, or supplied equipment to, most of the applicable states and the federal government.

The Leuchter Report


If this is the case surely his name would come up somewhere involving prisons and death chambers.



posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 09:09 AM
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It takes about 2.5 hours to cremate a body, if they gassed/killed so many people at those camps it would of been impossible to burn or even bury so many bodies.



posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 12:19 PM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop
The holocaust is real.
[]

He's not saying it never happened, and its a made up lie..
he's saying..

If it happened on the scale that the world has been told to believe...

why arent the germans paying the price for THEIR haneous crime, by allowing ISRAEL and JEWS to flourish on their land.

If this was a true holocaust BROUGHT on the people by the GERMANS, then the GERMANS should be the ones baring the brunt of the repairs.
Not palestine.

And he has a point!


Way above top secret vote for that Agit8dChop!

The very manner in which the this article was presented by mr. conspiracy is disinformation:



Iran holds international conference to debate
whether Hitler did kill 6 million Jews.


No... Iran holds an international conference to debate whether or not Zionists have legal grounds to hold claim to Palestine on behalf of the Jewish People.

Some of the presentors will be questioning whether there were indeed 6 million dead; as part of the evidence.



President Ahmedinejad is the only world leader who
openly claims that Holocaust is a myth.


Deflection. President Ahmedinejad is the only world leader (president) who openly claims:

"The Holocaust, as a Just cause for the creation of the Jewish state of Israel, in Palestine, is a myth."

The Zionist media (that knows the masses lack the intelectual capacity to wrap their mind around that tongue twister) then feed plastic packaged news claiming:

"Ahmedinejad says Holocaust is Myth"

they also claimed:

"Ahmedinejad wants Israel WIPED OFF THE MAP"

That one doesn't stand up to the Light of Day either.

When used in speech by an Iranian official "Holocaust Myth" refers to the "just cause for Jewish State".

On the subject of (sub-presidential, yet) world-leader (nonetheless), support:

Rabbi Mordechai Gifter

Ernst Zundel

Neturei Karta

Khaled Mashaal, Ismail Haniya

Noam Chomsky



He says evidence is not good enough to
convince him that Germans committed this atrocity.


He says evidence is not good enough that, the German committed atrocity, was best rectified by the military imposition of a racist Jew-only state, in Palestine.


Iran is the only nation that questions the Holocaust.


Syrians do not count of course... nor Egypt, Lebanon, the Palestinian Authority or Qatar



They say Nazis killed only a few thousand Jews.


They say if the Nazis killed anyone... the Nazis should pay, not Palestinian non-Jews.

Maybe Ahadminejad wouldn't be so upset if the Germans, US, or UN had at least kicked down a travel trailer and a goat to each of the Jew-displaced Muslims.



This type of conference would have been banned in Europe and America.


Maybe I'm the only one that sees something wrong in that. I am probably the only one who does more than gloss over the Orthodox Jews at his conference as well.

I am,

Sri Oracle



posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by Lecter
It takes about 2.5 hours to cremate a body, if they gassed/killed so many people at those camps it would of been impossible to burn or even bury so many bodies.


Uhhhhhh......................You can do more than one at a time.



posted on Dec, 16 2006 @ 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by Sun Matrix

Originally posted by Lecter
It takes about 2.5 hours to cremate a body, if they gassed/killed so many people at those camps it would of been impossible to burn or even bury so many bodies.


Uhhhhhh......................You can do more than one at a time.


I think not, I have actually visited several of those camps. The Topf ovens at Auschwitz-Birkenau, which were designed and constructed to hold one corpse at a time, required an average of approximately two hours to cremate each corpse. In fact, because of their limited heat potential, it was not economically feasible to cremate two or more bodies together, from the point of view both of duration and of coke consumption.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 11:03 AM
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Check this out before you get indignant!

www.zundelsite.org...


This report seems perfectly credible to me. I've always wondered why the supposed 6 million Jewish deaths of the Holocaust has always been emphasized over the supposed 20 million other casualties of this war.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 12:33 PM
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This report seems perfectly credible to me. I've always wondered why the supposed 6 million Jewish deaths of the Holocaust has always been emphasized over the supposed 20 million other casualties of this war.



Exactly why is it that universally most history books in schools & anywhere for that matter tend to concern over the supposed 6 million Jewish deaths. Do you think maybe it is more likely that thousands of Muslims also died? were the Catholics & Protestants excused?



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 03:30 PM
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Originally posted by dollmonster
This report seems perfectly credible to me. I've always wondered why the supposed 6 million Jewish deaths of the Holocaust has always been emphasized over the supposed 20 million other casualties of this war.


Dollmonster, so it does to me. With Zündel I have a problem that he seems to admire Hitler (from what I´ve read). The report seems to make sense though.

As far as Leuchter and Rudolf is concerned, isn´t it funny how experts are called in to testify or create reports and all of a sudden cease to be experts once their findings oppose popular beliefs?

What bothers me most is the "common knowledge" argument made by the German judge in the Remper case. Common knowledge?

I do not think so. Eye witnesses could be wrong and/or exaggerate facts they have witnessed. The only true evidence which must be taken into account is forensic evidence....

I liked the post about the depth of the Rudolf sample taken, but if you read the report well, you´ll see that that post is misleading, as they have taken several samples of surface morter as well, as they should have done. The smoking gun is the absence of Iron Blue (the blue staining of the walls due to cyanide saturation (or whatever you may call it).

This was clearly present in other locations where clothing was deliced, but not in the areas which were marked as the death or gas chambers.

Nope, the more I think about it, the more this bothers me...

What if it indeed was a lie? Think about the implications... Was Hitler less of a bad guy than we are made to believe... Scary prospect.

Could one of the possible reasons for lying about the death camps be that we are made to hate Nazi´s, forever and raise sympathy for the Jewish people? This drives me nuts thinking about it.

What else was lied about? That Werner von Braun was not a nazi?
He damned well was, and intelligence changed his records to get him into the United States after the war to work on rocket technology.

But that´s another subject



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 04:40 PM
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The holocaust happenned, I think people take that as a given..... other holocausts have also occurred (such as the much ignored slaughter of Armenians after WW1 by the Ottomans). However there appears to be varying levels of holocaust (apparently only the Jewish Holocaust merits a capital H), in the words of Rivka Cohen (Israeli Ambassador in Yerevan):

While the Armenian genocide was 'a tragedy', the (Jewish) Holocaust 'was a unique phenomenon, since it had always been planned and aimed to destroy the whole nation'

Apparently the Turks didn't kill enough Armenians.

Norman Finkelstein's "Holocaust Industry" examines the exploitation of suffering in depth.

What's happenning in Iran in simply a media circus to court controversy. After all, we don't hear Ahmadinejad chastising Persians for their ancestors freeing the Jews from Babylonian slavery, giving them back their lands and rebuilding (and kitting out) the Second Temple! It looks like we Persians have no ground to stand on when it comes to this particular question...... Cyrus was always the most gifted of monarchs.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 06:11 PM
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www.cbsnews.com...


looks like they just found these. what a coincidence the timing...they say they have been hidden for 60 years....


Millions of Nazi files that describe the mechanics of mass murder were a step closer to being opened to researchers following an agreement Tuesday by an 11-nation panel that has kept the archive locked away since World War II, officials said.

www.cbsnews.com...




[edit on 17-12-2006 by Funkydung]



posted on Dec, 19 2006 @ 11:31 AM
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wow i guess nobody heard about the government finding these files. if somebody did hear about it do you think its perfect timing or what??



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 03:40 AM
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This is a tricky subject...

There is no doubt there was a holocaust during WW2...
There have been MANY holocausts in this world throughout history.

Do the number of jews killed matter??? NO
but i do not think the number is 6 million... at Auschwitz it used to state the numbers killed was 4.1 million... it is now at 1.1 million...

now some will say... SEE they lied about 3 million deaths... I say they had good reason to believe that 4.1 million had been killed... but through further analysis they changed the number... as they should have.

It is things like that that give the deniers that strong footing...
I have watched most of those denier videos... and I admit that a lot of things don't add up.... like... Why they tell vistors that everything is original when lots has been rebuilt...

there are even more things. but that is not what this thread is about.

My father went to a concentration camp... I forget the name [sorry] and he said that it is just rubble today... but he said it was one of the scariest and life changing things he has ever seen.

some background on myself:
I'm canadian... grandfather fought in WW2
my dad is a non-practicing catholic... and I am a ... lets just say I beileive in god but not in organized religion...

.........................
Do i think the jews should have recieved their own homeland after WW2...
that is a NO. Especially not in such a powder keg of a holy land... even if it was biblically theirs at one point of another.

IF you think they should have then you can make Cases for Dozens of countries around world.
..........................
I think that is israels fault for the problems in that region... not the people of israel though... the decision to place them there.

If a country was given land in the middle of my coutry I would be fighting them aswell.
...........................

This conference in Iran is nothing more than a way to spark hatred against Israel... Anyone who thinks that confernece had people from both sides is insane.

But i do beileve their right to talk about any issue...
FREE SPEECH should be something everyone has. I hate the idea that counrties have banned and made it illegal for people to deny the holocaust.
why only the holocaust???
why don't people make it illegal to have people deny jesus died on a cross for our sins???

Free speech is a must, even is it may be harmful.
This is what ATS is all about... and that is why I come here.



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 05:02 AM
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Who has been feeding us with propaganda.... Iran or our own governments?

Could it be that all the media world wide and all governments with a so called democracy have been lying to us about the holocaust?

No they have been lying about more then that... Our politicians are just a mask for the real rulers of this world. In anytime in history where The british went to colonize a land they inmediatly installed masonic lodges which where there to create the beaurocratic system that would give them the possibility to rule from behind the scenes.

To come back to the holocaust. Try to take a look at this:

Jewish documentary maker at Auschwitz

Some facts about Auschwitz

Before the jews went to the so called gas chambers, they could play on the soccer fields or go swimming in the camps swimming pool which was situated directly next to the baraks. They could even go for a refreshing drink in the canteens and pay with the camps own printed money. One who liked to read could go to the camps library to borrow books from the forty five thousand volumes available. They could even go to the camps theater or the camps cinema

Who is lying to you and who is telling you the truth?



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 06:15 AM
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I have a question about Leutcher's report.

If the gas chambers were mostly destroyed after the war and then rebuilt for the museum at Aushwitz in 1948, how could you possibly expect to find traces of chemicals in the walls?





[edit on 29-1-2007 by Duzey]



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 07:11 AM
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Originally posted by Duzey
I have a question about Leutcher's report.

If the gas chambers were mostly destroyed after the war and then rebuilt for the museum at Aushwitz in 1948, how could you possibly expect to find traces of chemicals in the walls?


[edit on 29-1-2007 by Duzey]


Very good question !!

Please watch the Documentary the truth behind the gates of auschwitz by the jewish revisionist David Cole as mentioned before

[edit on 29-1-2007 by buddhaLight]



posted on Jan, 29 2007 @ 07:19 AM
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I'm watching it now, thanks.

I really hope that if I sit through the whole hour, I will get the answer to my question.



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