Today a girl told me that I was going to hell.

Your examples are of Children. In Matthew, it is a child who walks among them. Definately a child of an age where he can make decisions, such as accepting Jesus, and being baptised.

No mention of babies .

Originally posted by Rasobasi420

The necessity of baptism was defined by a general council of the church, the Council of Florence, Session 11 (Bull Cantate Domino), Feb 4, 1442, and had earlier been affirmed at the local Council of Carthage 417 AD. John Wyclif's attack on the necessity of infant baptism had been condemned by another general council, the Council of Constance, Session 15, July 6, 1415 AD. However, the Council of Trent, Session 6, 1547[2] taught that either baptism or desire for baptism is necessary for salvation, so it is possible to be saved without receiving the actual sacrament of baptism.

So officially, baptism, or the desire for baptism is necessary for salvation. If there is no desire, there is no salvation. Since a baby couldn't possibly know, then babies go to hell.

You would cite examples of men’s decisions made 400 to 1500 after the death of Christ, and all from the Roman church? The same church that believes that a man appointed by men can be declared the representative of Christ? The same church responsible for the death all who thought differently than them, yet claims to be compatible with Christ’s teachings of love and turning the other cheek?

Find me scripture that implicates infants, please.

No, find me scriptures that exclude infants. It has already been established that if you don't accept Jesus you're toast. At this point, it's about the exceptions.

You cannot need your sins taken away if you have none. The only case one could make for infants having sin is original sin inherited from Adam. HOWEVER, as I already stated, Ezekiel tells us that we CANNOT inherit the sins of our fathers.

Ezekiel 18:20 -
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.


Now, that is enough and you know it is. You may have some sort of vile disdain for the bible and for the church, and that is for you to sort out yourself. It does not concern me, as your spite cannot pollute me. This is why we are not to throw pearls before swine, because what do swine know of pearls? The swine will only twist the truth to try and trap you, emboldening and further hardening their hearts. I am sorry that I have contributed to that, except that now you may not say to others with the look of truth in your eyes "YHWY, the accuser of infants," or "Christ, the denier of the innocent.”

I hope your hardened, spiteful heart finds peace.

I love you.

Originally posted by spines
Today a girl told me that I was going to hell.

Are you or should you, according to the catholic/christian belief system?

Personally I don't believe in condemning or judging.

God will be your judge, as he will for all men.

This doesn't mean that we shouldn't point out sin as in your support for homosexual relationships, clearly God considers it a sin. Not THE sin but a sin like any other sin but indeed a sin.....sin (just thought I would throw in one more sin) lol

Originally posted by kinglizard
Are you or should you, according to the catholic/christian belief system?

This would beg the question of whether or not I believe in hell.

The answer to that is no.

Do I believe in god with a capital G? No.

So if there is a hell as defined by the Abrahamic scripture then yes, I will be in hell. No sense in changing my beliefs because a book written by men found a way to scare people into submission to the church.

Originally posted by spines
This would beg the question of whether or not I believe in hell.

The answer to that is no.

Do I believe in god with a capital G? No.

So if there is a hell as defined by the Abrahamic scripture then yes, I will be in hell. No sense in changing my beliefs because a book written by men found a way to scare people into submission to the church.

Your disbelief has already been established.

I'm not looking for your rationalization I'm looking for the persons that said you were going to hell. Does she have any biblical support for the things she said?


[edit on 12/15/2006 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard
I'm not looking for your rationalization I'm looking for the persons that said you were going to hell. Does she have any biblical support for the things she said?

I do not believe that she does. Only her arrogance and her strong belief that homosexuality is a horrid sin...I guess my support of same sex rights makes me just as bad in her mind.

Originally posted by spines
I do not believe that she does. Only her arrogance and her strong belief that homosexuality is a horrid sin...I guess my support of same sex rights makes me just as bad in her mind.

Generally speaking if one has accepted Jesus I agree that a sin will not send you to hell. Jesus died for the sinners not the richeous.

Yes Homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible, like I said homosexuality is not THE (horrid) sin but A sin, like any other. So certainly supporting a sin is also a sin but I don't at all agree with what she said to you.

[edit on 12/15/2006 by kinglizard]

all belief in supporting a claim of damnation with the bible aside
does a human being really have the right to claim that another human being is going to hell?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
all belief in supporting a claim of damnation with the bible aside
does a human being really have the right to claim that another human being is going to hell?

No, as I said a few posts back man should not be condemning man to death or hell. God will judge all men.

A person can find salvation in Jesus Christ, all sins are washed away. I believe a person has the term of their life to find and accept this salvation. If I were to condemn you to hell for a sin when you were twenty and you found Jesus when you were 21 then it is I that sinned. Worse yet, if I sentenced you to death for a sin then I would be taking away your God given right to find salvation in his son and to have all sins washed away.

So no, I don’t believe in condemning anyone though it may be important to tell the person that he could spend eternity without God (hell) if (s)he doesn’t find salvation.


[edit on 12/15/2006 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by kinglizard
No, as I said a few posts back man should not be condemning man to death or hell. God will judge all men.

A person can find salvation in Jesus Christ, all sins are washed away. I believe a person has the term of their life to find and accept this salvation. If I were to condemn you to hell for a sin when you were twenty and you found Jesus when you were 21 then it is I that sinned. Worse yet, if I sentenced you to death for a sin then I would be taking away your God given right to find salvation in his son and to have all sins washed away.

So no, I don’t believe in condemning anyone though it may be important to tell the person that he could spend eternity without God (hell) if (s)he doesn’t find salvation.

So tell me: Why would a loving and accepting god not be satisfied with my happiness. I lead a good life, help others whenever I can and lead a spiritually fullfilling life. I may not worship God but I find comfort in the feeling that there is something beyond me and that the physical form is not the last step in my journey.

Why would God not be happy with just that. Why must I lead my life worshipping him?

I doubt that if he is as loving as you all say he is that he would mind.

Originally posted by spines
So tell me: Why would a loving and accepting god not be satisfied with my happiness. I lead a good life, help others whenever I can and lead a spiritually fullfilling life. I may not worship God but I find comfort in the feeling that there is something beyond me and that the physical form is not the last step in my journey.

All those things are good and honorable but the bible says the only way to the father is through the son. Good deeds and intentions won't get you to Heaven, salvation found through Jesus Christ is the only way.

I've seen Heaven and felt how much God loves his children, I want you to experience the same.

Originally posted by spines
It is as simple as my belief that same sex couples should be able to marry and that I don't understand how, as a country, we feel that we have the right to debate this.

There are lots of reasons why a country would deny the privilege of marriage to same-sex couples, but the most compelling is that there is no reason for a nation to sanction such arrangements.

However, when someone tells you that you are going to hell, tell them to go to hell. Miss Manners wouldn't approve, but that should set the record straight on where you stand on the issue.

It is odd that it is considered rude to tell someone to go to hell, but it is perfectly acceptable to tell someone they are going to hell.

[edit on 2006/12/15 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by spines

So tell me: Why would a loving and accepting god not be satisfied with my happiness. I lead a good life, help others whenever I can and lead a spiritually fullfilling life. I may not worship God but I find comfort in the feeling that there is something beyond me and that the physical form is not the last step in my journey.

Why would God not be happy with just that. Why must I lead my life worshipping him?

I doubt that if he is as loving as you all say he is that he would mind.

Not only is God loving, he is righteous and just. His ways are far above our ways. He says if you break one part of the law you have broken all the law. No matter how good you think you are you can't stand in his presence without his grace. He loves you so much that he sent his son to pay the price for your sins and all the sins of mankind. We must accept the free gift through faithn and be spiritually born to be a child of God.

Psalm 51:5

1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your unfailing love;
according to your great compassion
blot out my transgressions.

2 Wash away all my iniquity
and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is always before me.

4 Against you, you only, have I sinned
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are proved right when you speak
and justified when you judge.

5 Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
what about those people who never had any exposure to christianity and the bible?

and why do we have to place faith in something to be saved?
can we not gain salvation through good works?

Here's the deal on that. God placed you in the year 2006(and some years before that and some years after that). He didn't place you in 1582 A.D. or 727 B.C., so your response to Jesus Christ is in the here and now. Have you heard about Jesus Christ and the salvation and forgiveness for sin that He alone gives? If you have then you have been faced with a decision, believe in Him or reject Him. To believe and trust Jesus for your salvation is a decision made. Rejecting Who He is, is also a choice. To not choose Him, is also a decision made. Your responsibilty is right now, to make a decision for or against giving your sin to Christ and receiving forgiveness and eternal life. If you choose to reject Him, then go on about your life and live however you want(realizing at any moment that greater events in your life could bring about, other moments of decision regarding Christ, or maybe there will be no other chances to hear the Gospel and be faced with a choice). And at death, if Christ hasn't become your Savior, you will forvever be apart from God. If you receive the forgiveness found in Christ, then you are freed from your sin and will forever live with God, and at death you will face no condemnation. If received, then your responsibility factor jumps up several notches. Then you are to tell others who live in 2006 about Him, in word, deed and action. You aren't responsible for those alive before you. God took care of them, by having other believers, who lived during their time, be witnesses to them.



No good works required(but they will become part of yourlife after salvation). They will lead to reward, not salvation. A christian does good works because they are saved, not to be saved. Faith is required and faith is a noun and a verb. People are not robots. We have the capacity to choose. Mankind chose to reject God's instructions in the beginning, and sin entered. Now each must choose whether or not to keep their sin(which they can) or rid themselves of it by following God's instructions on how to do this( through Jesus Christ).

It's very simple. Say you are drowning and someone throws you a life preserver. To be saved you must grab it and/or put it on. If you refuse to take hold of it and receive it you will continue to drown and die. God has also thrown you a life preserver, Jesus Christ to keep you from drowning and eventually dying. He's been thrown to you, grab onto Him, and you will be svaed form drowning in your sin. Choose to not reach for the "preserver"(Jesus) and the choice is the same as rejecting Him.

Basically, madness, what it all means is that someone like Jeffrey Dahmer who decided to take the 'preserver' but killed many people and ate their brains, will be saved. Hurrah!!! However, he will not be rewarded for good works and will clean the toilets of heaven for eternity.

Whilst Ghandi will go to hell. So if this is all true, I hope to see Ghandi there. Oh, and Douglas Adams

[edit on 16-12-2006 by melatonin]

Originally posted by melatonin
Whilst Ghandi will go to hell. So if this is all true, I hope to see Ghandi there. Oh, and Douglas Adams

If they didn't accept the salvation provided by the blood of Jesus they will not spend eternity with God.

[edit on 12/16/2006 by kinglizard]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Psalm 51:5

To keep this thread on topic, I have started a new one. Ask your question about David's poem there and I will throw more pearls your way.

BTS Topic: Do infants go to hell?