JSF and British/American Ties

britain is a strategic ally of america and has profited greatly from an alliance with america, the US hardly views the UK as our dogs as you seem to believe the UK has been used. the US and the Uk are also business partners and have massive influence in the world in regards to world markets, this whole debacle is basically business, the US is protecting it's multi billion dollar investment such as the Uk would do.


also referencing old planes and technology shared with the US from the UK is irrelevant in regards to this topic, the JSF is not like any other plane developed and far surpasses anything the UK ever sold the US.

i'm an american from california and i highly respect the Uk and british culture, infact I cant wait till i go visit england and then europe .

[edit on 12-12-2006 by ape]

Originally posted by st3ve_o
yeah but your saying the UK signed and agreed to something that was clearly written on some paper and we agreed to this 'something' that we now shouldn't be entitled to it as it wasn't in the original agreement

- i'm asking you to provide me with what you've seen.

it must say something in the lines of "thou shall not have FULL operational sovereignty over the aircraft" then signed by a british offical, until then don't make out britain agreed to something that we never

as for joint strike fighter ^american, american, american^, read this:-

en.wikipedia.org...

and i think another member *above* as already provided source's that proves the JSF not 'soley' an aircraft developed by the good ol US of A.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by st3ve_o]

Hey look. Your the one wanting to know. You look it up yourself. My country doesnt owe you ppl sh*t over there in the land of delirium. Somehow you ppl over there think we do. You went with us to Iraq..... Im thankful and respect the british armed forces. But like its been said to think the US who has the most powerful military in the world couldnt have done it on its own is rediculous. We spend over $$$ 560,000,000,000$$$ on our military. To think we cant take out a third world power without the help of a few thousand brits is LUDACRIS. So what do we owe you chumps anyways? The war on terror? That should be everybodys concern NOT just Americas.

The US just put iceing on britians cake if this deal seriously went through. It brings a whole new meaning to the 'Great American Giveaway'. And know, BAE like Westpoint said, is subsidary to Lockheed, An american company. This is LOCKHEEDS BIRD! Not BAEs! Its part of acutally making the brits feel like there doing something even though we're paying the bills.. None of its possible without America baby!! Stupid on our part. But you by no means make or break this deal. So stop acting like you guys make a difference because you clearly dont.

[edit on 083131p://222 by semperfoo]

Originally posted by iqonx
As somebody who is British.

I have to agree with the American posters.

They do not owe us anything and they definently don;t have to give us any source codes.

First of all they are funding the whole project we are only paying something like $2 billion out of something close to $40 billion which is less then 5% of the costs. For that price you can't even buy crap nowadays.

We payed $2 billion and we are getting access to the aircraft for $35 million per aircraft.

Thats a pretty good deal considering we are there dogs since 1945 good thing the American's decided to throw scaps of the table at us.

We in Britain seem to be delusional about our importance on the world stage. British people need to realise we are seen as a joke and nobody takes us seriously not even America.

We have no special relationship between American and Britian. Why would they have one with us? There economy is 100x bigger then our's, there armed forces are 10x bigger then ours. We are not needed by them.

This is our own fault for destorying our own 1st class aircraft industry and then begging other countries for scraps from there aircraft industries. Why should America give us anything?

People in Britain seem to think the relationship between britain and America is like a Husband and wife where everthing is 50/50. This couldn't be further from the truth the relationship is more like that between a Pimp and a prostitute. We are the prostitute.

I'm surprised America didn't give us the middle finger and tell us to "F*ck off" when we asked them for the source codes.

If Britain want's control of it's own aircrafts then we should build there own rather then begging other countries who are bigger and more powerfull then us.

Personally if i was in control of our armed forces spending i would go to the Russians and buy naval Su-27(Insert navy version model here) jets and use those.

I think that Britain should cut it's connections to America and build connections with Russia atleast that way we get cool Russian kit like Mig-29's, Mig-31 and Su-27/30/etc .

And you know what the real funny thing is we British refure to sell our military equipment to the chinese as not to offend the Americans. what a joke Britain has become.

You don't sound very proud to be British that's for sure!

To be honest i don't think people are talking about the funding of the project, everybody knows the United States are funding the majority of the money into the Joint Strike Fighter Project, but i think all this worry (ie) technology passing on from the American side is stealth technology, from a British point of view we want to be FULLY in control of something we are paying for and for something that we have contributed to developing and adding our own little secret too (the unique V/STOL), see we limeys are proud and stubborn we wouldn't want to operate anything that is 100% developed by another nation, this is why F35(b) is our choice because we've added our own little ingredients to it, something that is British.

Interesting thread though, but let's keep it civil

[edit on 12-12-2006 by Sepiroth]

Just like to point out that even though the US could have shut out BAE, we didn't. True part of it's due to the fact that BAE was/is the only one capable of producing those specific parts to such a high and capable standard for the offered price. But part of it also has to do with the fact that BAE is British, as such, we are not as concerned and are more willing about giving jobs, money and technology to BAE as we would be about Sukhoi for example. We have given BAE a good deal of share in our defense market often in competition with US firms, so don't think the US doesn't appreciate Britain.

Another case I'd like to bring up is the F-136, yup that's right, RR's engine that the US military and LM does not want. We cancelled funding and plans for this engine and the UK complained. We then restored the funds to give RR some more money and jobs. Think that thru slowly for a second and what it means.

And I'd like to further point out that I am appalled and embarrassed that some Americans view the UK with such hate and vitriol. This is a specific disagreement and I know that I have a strong position on it but I do not hate or deny the general special relationship the US has with the UK. In general I am grateful for it, it would be foolish to think we as Americas do not benefit from it or that it is not important, in the coming decades it will arguably be as important as it was in WWII and during the Cold War, for both sides.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

your country contributed less than 5% of what the costs were to develope this plane, alot of what your country contributed to has nothing to do in regards to reasoning in why they want this aircraft, they want this aircraft because of certain US technology thats implanted in this beast, somthing your country did not contribute to and im sure westpoint could explain that better than I can, point is you can still operate and modify your craft without knowing certain information you wouldnt be able to crack anyways, nobody competes with the US in regards to airpower and as so greatly put before we are not going to simply give you the keys to our kingdom only forit to be used to compete with us later on. not a sound business decision.

if you dont like it your country should develope their own technology and stop bellybitchin, of course that would require almost 2 decades worth of research something your country is trying to avoid apparantly.

Originally posted by Sepiroth

You don't sound very proud to be British that's for sure!

Maybe hes being realistic?

To be honest i don't think people are talking about the funding of the project, everybody knows the United States are funding the majority of the money into the Joint Strike Fighter Project, but i think all this worry (ie) technology passing on from the American side is stealth technology, from a
British point of view we want to be FULLY in control of something we are paying for and for something that we have contributed to developing and adding our own little secret too (the unique V/STOL), see we limeys are proud and stubborn we wouldn't want to operate anything that is 100% developed by another nation, this is why F35(b) is our choice because we've added our own little ingredients to it, something that is British.

Interesting thread though, but let's keep it civil

[edit on 12-12-2006 by Sepiroth]

Then why doesnt Britian build there own air craft? Your blokes just slid a buck 50 on the table while the americans just paid for you meal. Simply put you wouldnt be buying jack crap if it wasnt for america paying your way into the night club.

The british might have added a few odd trinquets here and there who knows. But none of it would be possible without the 35 large america just put down for it. Not to mention Lockheed making it all work.

Originally posted by ape
your country contributed less than 5%

actaully 10% of the costs monkeyboy 50% or more in development/

i think i got my earlyer analysis of america spot on too:-

====================

Originally posted by st3ve_o

1) arrogant- 'we are right, you are wrong'

2) ignorant - the rest of the world doesn't exist to a huge part of americans, it seems most live on ^PLANET AMERICA^ most of the time.

==========================

Originally posted by ape
if you dont like it your country should develope their own technology and stop bellybitchin, of course that would require almost 2 decades worth of research something your country is trying to avoid apparantly.

we do, here's a few links of your precious stealth technology that we have already built

Originally posted by st3ve_o
www.baesystems.com...

www.youtube.com...

www.defenseindustrydaily.com...

www.flightglobal.com...

more

www.baesystems.com... (world's most advanced warship)

more

en.wikipedia.org...

and more

en.wikipedia.org...

next

[edit on 12-12-2006 by st3ve_o]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
And I'd like to further point out that I am appalled and embarrassed that some Americans view the UK with such hate and vitriol. This is a specific disagreement and I know that I have a strong position on it but I do not hate or deny the general special relationship the US has with the UK. In general I am grateful for it, it would be foolish to think we as Americas do not benefit from it or that it is not important, in the coming decades it will arguably be as important as it was in WWII and during the Cold War.

I think we are close allies. Not as close as we used to be but still pretty tight. Its just frusterating that we americans get bashed for stupid crap, and yet we do so much for other nations. We just gifted wrapped the F-35 to the brits, And if we did it for them whats going to stop us from doing it for the Italians, the Aussies etc? Making it alot easier for other countrys to steal our technology we've worked so hard on. We're called arrogant because we have pride for our nation and show it and defend it when others bash it. But we're supposed to be the arrogant ones... Figures. I by no means hate ppl by their nationalities just a lil show respect would be nice every now and then.

Steve O

Oh lord (funny), here we go again, been there done that. Next. Lets not drag this already degrading "discussion" into a dumb military pissing match while under the high effects of nationalism. Trust me it's not good for ya, found out the hard way, several times, and I still do on occasions.

Ape, don't worry about it, we all do it, show contempt and ungratefulness for one another, however overall both our respective populations don't want it to go away. I suspect most of the rational British members on heredo appreciate the US and our relationship with the UK, even if they're too stubborn to admit it.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Oh lord (funny), here we go again, been there done that. Next. Lets not drag this already degrading "discussion" into a dumb military pissing match while under the high effects of nationalism. Trust me it's not good for ya, found out the hard way, several times, and I still do on occasions.

How is it 'degrading' Ill admit Stevo is trying to make a pissing match out of it. Usually the last line of defense for the defensless But this thread is a good thread. Its no fun when everyone is agreeing with each other. Does it need to be more civil. Sure. But if you cant handle it then get out.

[edit on 083131p://222 by semperfoo]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Steve O

Oh lord (funny), here we go again, been there done that. Next. Lets not drag this already degrading "discussion" into a dumb military pissing match while under the high effects of nationalism. Trust me it's not good for ya, found out the hard way, several times, and I still do on occasions.

Ape, don't worry about it, we all do it, show contempt and ungratefulness for one another, however overall both our respective populations don't want it to go away. I suspect most of the rational British members on heredo appreciate the US and our relationship with the UK, even if they're too stubborn to admit it.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by WestPoint23]

ok m8, i don't want to go down that route myself, afterall there's about 3 threads like that in the weapons section already (just on page 1)!!

i didn't want this thread to turn into a slagging match (although i knew it had the potential to turn into one ) ^2 nation's with different opinions^...but i feel it's a good subject and a subject i have learnt from actaully (from both sides) that's what the net is all about, debating/learning/porn

but if somebody slags off my country, i'm going to slag off theirs in return, unfortunity that's how things end up in british and american threads, it's strange actaully because if we saw each other on the outside we'd probably have a good laugh with each other.

a few family members/friends have been to various parts of the US and they've come back saying how much the americans love the brits over there, as said earlyer though - it's banter and handbags NOT hatered

[edit on 12-12-2006 by st3ve_o]

originally posted by st3ve_o
actaully 10% of the costs monkeyboy

apes are not monkeys.

is this incorrect?

USA $35,475,000,000
UK $2B
Italy $1B
Netherlands $800M
Turkey $175M
Canada $150M
Australia $150M
Denmark $125M
Norway $125M

enough said.

westpoint can you please point out some of the specs and features in regards to the f-35 that the brits were not involved in, also can you please remind us about the source code something they had nothing to do with and how much it cost to develope this type of technology.

[edit on 12-12-2006 by ape]

Originally posted by ape
apes are not monkeys.

SHOCKING

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Can you elaborate?

We've been fighting "terrorists" for over a century, boer war?

Ahh.. fair enough..
I was curious since the definition of 'terrorism' has been skewed ever since..
well its been skewed for ages..

One could argue that the first proper attempt at an act of terrorism was Guy Fawkes and his plot... That was in the 1600's...

Unless someone has new figures to post the total JSF/F-35 R/D cost up to December 2005 was 45.7 Billion according to the GAO. The UK supplied 200 Million USD in the 1997-2001 development stage and a further 2 Billion in the subsequent stages after the X-35 was selected. Unless mathematics has changed that equals about 4.8% of the cost, and no I don't care what Wikipedia says, I ought to edit it right now...

GAO Report, March 2006 - PDF

This is a good overview of the entire F-35 program and situation, I recommend everyone read it.

CRS Report to Congress - PDF

One more thing I feel I need to mention again, Lockheed Martin is the main program developer, it's their airframe, their design and production, but like all projects it has subcontractors. Numbering in the dozens I might add, from big name companies to obscure ones. Without Lockheed there would be no F-35, their research and design, programs and testing are what makes the fighter. Think of it this way, Lockheed built the house others provide the furniture.

This website lists major F-35 subcontractors and what they developed for the fighter.

Link

And here is a list of how much and which British companies are and will gain from the F-35. Look at their goals and plan, that is why we are rightly worried.

Link

Sorry, I've avoided this discussion because this was certain to be the outcome of the debate, regardless of ATS members personal feelings.

And here is a list of how much and which British companies are and will gain from the F-35. Look at their goals and plan, that is why we are rightly worried.

Sorry, rightly worried about what? That they get access to new tech? I said it before, but I'll say it again. If you are that worried, don't sell the bloody aircraft. What more do you want?

That seems to settle it then.

Jolly good show lads thanks to the Yanks for being good sports

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Unless someone has new figures to post the total JSF/F-35 R/D cost up to December 2005 was 45.7 Billion according to the GAO. The UK supplied 200 Million USD in the 1997-2001 development stage and a further 2 Billion in the subsequent stages after the X-35 was selected. Unless mathematics has changed that equals about 4.8% of the cost, and no I don't care what Wikipedia says, I ought to edit it right now...

GAO Report, March 2006 - PDF

This is a good overview of the entire F-35 program and situation, I recommend everyone read it.

CRS Report to Congress - PDF

One more thing I feel I need to mention again, Lockheed Martin is the main program developer, it's their airframe, their design and production, but like all projects it has subcontractors. Numbering in the dozens I might add, from big name companies to obscure ones. Without Lockheed there would be no F-35, their research and design, programs and testing are what makes the fighter. Think of it this way, Lockheed built the house others provide the furniture.

This website lists major F-35 subcontractors and what they developed for the fighter.

Link

And here is a list of how much and which British companies are and will gain from the F-35. Look at their goals and plan, that is why we are rightly worried.

Link

Preserve UK as a leading military, aerospace and industrial power.

Do the american tax payers know that we will also be funding the UKs
airforce? It goes onto say the following.

Retain benefits of early commitment to JSF through programme life.

Basically Americans whatever new findings over the next 40 years with future research on the JSF, report to us any new findings because we cant do it on our own! Nice one britian! Not to mention the espionage thats going to be unleashed. You know countrys in Europe and Asia have been watching this very subject closely.
Is the UK blackmailing the US for these source codes?

[edit on 113131p://222 by semperfoo]