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A Letter From a Soldier in Iraq

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posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 04:30 AM
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Anyone who connects patriotism with following the policies of an elected leader needs there head examined and is a danger to society at large. Real patriotism involves questioning any government action that is ill advised and being proud of those who serve even if there mission is half baked. Sure military leaders that dont stand up to civilian leaders aren't worth much but thats a topic I have covered else where.

I am as proud of Vietnam vets as I am of those who landed at ANZAC Cove.




posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by xpert11
Anyone who connects patriotism with following the policies of an elected leader needs there head examined and is a danger to society at large. Real patriotism involves questioning any government action that is ill advised......


Yes I agree with you up until this bit:



....and being proud of those who serve even if there mission is half baked.


Being proud of people doing wrong? Worshipping undying loyalty is one thing but does it become worthy of worship when it is loyalty misdirected?

Can someone explain the difference for me?



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 05:17 AM
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Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
Being proud of people doing wrong? Worshipping undying loyalty is one thing but does it become worthy of worship when it is loyalty misdirected?
Can someone explain the difference for me?


I can only give you my opinion here goes.
The private who obeys any order with in reason isn't doing anything wrong even if there civilian and political leaders have let them down badly. By with in reason I mean that they don't commit the likes of cold blooded murder of civilians. I am not referring to the political motivated references to war crimes that have surrounded the war in Iraq.

Take Vietnam for example I think that that Australian and New Zealand made the wrong decision to get involved in the conflict but I don't think that it is fair to blame those who fought on ground after all they didn't have control of over where they were deployed to.

I have no respect for those who spat on the likes of my Dad when he returned from Vietnam.


[edit on 12-12-2006 by xpert11]



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 05:27 AM
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What Kerry said is true in America. Good or bad. Get an education and a job. Or fall back on the Army. Many join to fight the good fight. Most join because they had no other options available to them so when the 'forces' attacked them at 18...

AND THEY HUNT YOU... believe me, my son just turned 18 and there is an officer at my door AT LEAST once a week. I tell them this hell hole isnt worth sending my son to fight for and slam the door in their faces.

Kerry made a remark. Stated a fact really, although with little class and at a very bad time for America, considering many feel we shouldnt have gone or should already be back.

But truth is:

In America, get an education, dig ditches or go into the military. Those are your options.

I wouldnt pee down Kerrys throat if his guts were on fire but he meant what he said because ITS TRUE.

Wisen up or go to war. No free rides so dont make the military your only option. Hell, probably the smartest thing he has ever said. Go Kerry!

Pro-education! Stop sending your babies to war... send them to a school of higher learning! Dont listen to those commercials on TV trying to make us, as parents, feel our child would be getting a 'good deal' by giving the military 4 yrs... DONT!

They leave with huge hopes and dreams. They return in body bags. Are you a gambling man, I ask? Im not... not when it comes to my baby.



[edit on 12-12-2006 by Little One]



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 05:51 AM
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Whiel I believe pathetic souls are taking as much fruit from this slipup in a speech as possible...

flame me if you like.. but isnt it the truth? Sorta?

If you drop out of school, your A GRADE MATERIAL for the recruiters.

Honestly... look at Farenheit..

they PREY on the under-educated people who arent in school there in the streets.

While this soilder is a true america, a real academic... he went to IRAQ for his own reasons.


But most of the uneducated people that sign up, are not signing up to learn languages, or meet people learn culture or to prusue a educational career.

they are doing it for the 'dough' for the 'thrill'

While Kerry was wrong to say what he said,

Its the unfortunate truth that the uneducated people who DONT have the ability for scholarships, or a decent job... are more than likely to be the ones signed up for this ILLEGIAL WAR.

why are you all jumping on KERRY for saying something ABOUT THIS ILLEGIAL WAR?

where the hell is your intellegence.

JUMP ALL UP AND DOWN ABOUT THE WAR if your going to cry so loudly.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 06:54 AM
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Originally posted by howmuchisthedoggy
You may have missed my point entirely. There is no need for insults and I am sure we can pull an interesting discussion out of this.



I sincerely apologize my friend....

I was having a VERY bad day at work and was truly embarrassed at my rant that you DID NOT deserve...

Please accept my apology....

Semper



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 08:25 AM
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One doesn't have to agree with the mission in question in order to honor the sacrifices of those tasked with executing it.

I think invading Iraq was a terrible mistake, and I think the War in Iraq harms this country as opposed to protecting it. That doesn't mean I think the soldiers in Iraq are somehow all goons just because the war is a foolish one - soldiers don't get to pick and choose the wars they are sent to fight in.

When a war is not strongly supported by the public, the soldeirs are aware of it, and many tend to get caught up in cynicism and apathy: "why am I here getting shot at?", which leads to events like Mai Lai or Haditha.

That doesn't mean that the soldiers themselves are in general any less honorable than those that fought in WW2, just that they're human beings subject to the same flaws and failings as any other group of human beings.

This is why we have these kinds of arguments: for soldiers, it's important in terms of motivation and duty to "support the mission" - to prevent the morale problems that lead to tragedies like Haditha.

For the rest of us citizens, it's important to question what our leaders are doing, and speak up if we think they're wrong. As citizens in a democracy that's our duty.

Thus I oppose the War in Iraq, not because I "hate the military", but because I think the war is a mistake that is bad for the country.


[edit on 12/12/06 by xmotex]



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 08:39 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis

I sincerely apologize my friend....

I was having a VERY bad day at work and was truly embarrassed at my rant that you DID NOT deserve...



Apology not required!

Hope you are having a better day today!

I look forward to your opinions on some of the other points that were brought up when you are feeling more on form.

HMITD



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Its the unfortunate truth that the uneducated people who DONT have the ability for scholarships, or a decent job... are more than likely to be the ones signed up for this ILLEGIAL WAR.


I agree with this.

And as regards the soldiers, this is about generalizations. If you generalize and say that the soldiers are stupid or uneducated, there's going to be trouble. Any time you generalize, with ANY group of people, there's going to be violent disagreement by those who cite the exceptions. And whether you generalize that soldiers are stupid OR that soldiers deserve our respect, there's a certain amount of truth, but also a certain amount of inaccuracy.

Many soldiers aren't educated and joining the service was their only reasonable choice. Generally speaking this is common. And while I generally have a high degree of respect for soldiers, some soldiers definitely DO NOT deserve my respect. I don't give respect to people who rape women, abuse children or torture and murder people. I don't care who they are or what uniform they wear. Period.

Now I realize there are some (like Semper perhaps) that lay blanket respect on ALL soldiers simply because they're soldiers. And I'm fine with that. But to expect or demand that everyone feel the same way is just unrealistic. And to expect or demand that we keep our opinions to ourselves flies in the face of the sacrifices that all soldiers have made fighting for our freedoms that we hold so dear.

So, keep in mind that generalizing a group of people, while useful in discussion, is never fully accurate and can cause emotional response.


As I said, I'm not a Kerry fan, but I don't hate him or anything. And I believe the emotional response he gets is because there is a lot of truth to what he says. Not 100%, but there's some painful truth in there, in my opinion.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 09:51 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
BH,
Maybe by the "lesser" services, but NOT A MARINE....

Semper

[edit on 12/11/2006 by semperfortis]




I wonder if all the vets, myself included [USAF], feel that their service was
"lesser"?

Pride is one thing, Arrogance is another.





[edit on 12-12-2006 by whaaa]

[edit on 12-12-2006 by whaaa]



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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You interject the words "Their Service" and blame that on me???

How typical...

The term Lesser Services is a Marine thing.... Not having gone through Marine Boot Camp, you can not possibly understand...

No direct insult intended, sorry if it hurt your feelings..

Semper


df1

posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
I was having a VERY bad day at work...

An emotional man having a bad day at work doesn`t give me a warm fuzzy feeling particularly when his job involves the use of a sniper rifle. I hope ATS provides you an adequate venue to vent your frustrations for all our sakes.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 01:24 PM
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I disagre with Little One that your options in America are limited to getting an education and a job or joining the Army. While it's true that many do take that path, there are many educated people in the miltary and many uneducated people working in decent jobs making a success of their lives. And for similar reasons I disagree with Agit8dChop. Kerry didn't make any earth-shattering revelations, nor did he disclose any dirty little secrets. He merely said something that is somewhat true some of the time. And the way he said it pissed a whole lot of people off.

Plus, your statement that enlistees only sign up for the thrill or the money is ridiculous and ignorant.

Life is what you make of it, folks. Stop painting such a bleak picture. And before you defend Kerry so strongly, look at his record and ask yourself if this is the guy you would want watching your back, or standing up for you if something not your fault went wrong.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 01:27 PM
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Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by semperfortis
I was having a VERY bad day at work...

An emotional man having a bad day at work doesn`t give me a warm fuzzy feeling particularly when his job involves the use of a sniper rifle. I hope ATS provides you an adequate venue to vent your frustrations for all our sakes.


Well, I for one am glad that he uses his writing skills as an outlet instead of keeping it inside until something else happens.

He's a human being for chrissakes. Examine yourself before you judge him.


df1

posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 02:37 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
He's a human being for chrissakes.

Stop raining on sempers parade. He says that he is a marine and that this experience gives him superior judgement and abilities in comparison to an ordinary human being. Heck he even claims that he is superior to other marines.



Examine yourself before you judge him.

He's a marine, he wouldn't ask for slack. Would he?

[edit on 12-12-2006 by df1]



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 04:02 PM
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Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by jsobecky
He's a human being for chrissakes.

Stop raining on sempers parade. He says that he is a marine and that this experience gives him superior judgement and abilities in comparison to an ordinary human being. Heck he even claims that he is superior to other marines.


Examine yourself before you judge him.

He's a marine, he wouldn't ask for slack. Would he?

[edit on 12-12-2006 by df1]

I never heard him say he was superior to other marines. Maybe I missed that.

How about you tell us what your profession is. Then we can go back through every post you ever made and tell you where we don't feel warm and fuzzy whenever you said something we think was untoward.

Semper doesn't need me to stick up for him, believe me. What I said had less to do with him and more to do with what you said.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you over this. It's just derailing the topic.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I disagre with Little One that your options in America are limited to getting an education and a job or joining the Army. While it's true that many do take that path, there are many educated people in the miltary and many uneducated people working in decent jobs making a success of their lives. And for similar reasons I disagree with Agit8dChop. Kerry didn't make any earth-shattering revelations, nor did he disclose any dirty little secrets. He merely said something that is somewhat true some of the time. And the way he said it pissed a whole lot of people off.

Plus, your statement that enlistees only sign up for the thrill or the money is ridiculous and ignorant.

Life is what you make of it, folks. Stop painting such a bleak picture. And before you defend Kerry so strongly, look at his record and ask yourself if this is the guy you would want watching your back, or standing up for you if something not your fault went wrong.


I never stated enlistees only sign up for the trill. Dont put words in my mouth, thank you kindly. I still stand firm to my post 100%. The truth hurts but it needs to be told. And it *IS* the truth, as you yourself, admitted.


df1

posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 06:17 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
I never heard him say he was superior to other marines. Maybe I missed that.

Clearly he thinks himself superior and qualified to render judgement concerning other marines. link: semper insulting and degrading another marine.



How about you tell us what your profession is. Then we can go back through every post you ever made and tell you where we don't feel warm and fuzzy whenever you said something we think was untoward.

For your stated purpose, you may consider my profession to be a residential trash removal engineer junior grade trainee. Jump all over it.



I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you over this. It's just derailing the topic.

It seems to me that the thread was derailed by the person that started it when it became evident that not all marines share the views of his letter writer. Imho semper and his letter writer prove kerrys point, while philip martin refutes kerry.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 08:39 PM
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Originally posted by Little One
I never stated enlistees only sign up for the trill. Dont put words in my mouth, thank you kindly. I still stand firm to my post 100%. The truth hurts but it needs to be told. And it *IS* the truth, as you yourself, admitted.

I never said you did. I was referring to Agit8dChop. And it also appears that you misinterpreted what I said as agreeing with your version of the "truth".



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 09:26 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
The term Lesser Services is a Marine thing.... Not having gone through Marine Boot Camp, you can not possibly understand...

No direct insult intended, sorry if it hurt your feelings..

Semper



No but I do understand propaganda, mind control, and youthful acceptance of authority. I also have 2 degrees. BFD.

Don't worry about my feelings; I can take it as well as dish it out.



[edit on 12-12-2006 by whaaa]



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