Dude, the cops are getting sloppy. they forgot to taser the kid repeatedly for crying when they arrested him. Oh and they forgot to let his mom beat the S*** out of him once they handcuffed him.

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
SO your kid shows ingenuity and resoursfulnes on discovering the where abouts of his christmas present early and playing with it. This is what kids are supposed to do.

Oh, please forgive us, we forgot! Little Junior was just expressing himself!!
Whatever we do, we should make sure we don't stifle his inner creativity!!

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I don't see anything wrong with limited physical discipline. If it's done in anger, it's not right.

If it's done to get the kid's attention, I think there's merit there.

After reading MCory1's response, I was still in disagreement. But after reading this as well, I stand corrected. I am against the physical punishment of a child, when it is done in anger. I do believe reinforcement is the ticket, but very limited physical discipline should be acceptable.

When I was about twelve years old, I had joked with an older man that easily could of been perceived as slightly offensive. He, I, and everyone else that heard it, understood that I meant no harm. My mother on the other hand, seen that it could of been portrayed as me being ignorant. She quickly put me in my place, and I knew damn well I would never let it slip again. Well, not in front of her.

So thinking back to that moment, I do agree with what has been said.

Back to this individual case.

Parents, especially this mother, need to step up and begin to take responsibility for their children. We can not depend on the state to govern the actions of our child, and expect them to bail us out when times become difficult.

I deal with a lot of children. I work with troubled youth and I also volunteer as a coach in youth sports. Every child is given my respect, and I expect it in return. When I am shown respect, I am much more tolerable. I believe first and foremost, the parents need to have the respect of the child.

If your child does not respect you as a parent, you need to rethink your strategy.

It is not enough to demand respect. You need to earn it, and retain it. If you want your child to respect you, you must respect the child.

Which is the crux of the problem with this family, in my opinion.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
He's been going through life, doing things, getting away with it - whose fault is that?

Lady, the police department is not an educational service. They don't exist to raise your kid, train your kid, punish your kid, or otherwise supplant your role in the kid's life.

Do your damn job! The kid is twelve years old, and you gotta call the cops on him when he disobeys you?

Parents are increasingly reliant on the cops in this country to do the parenting. Part of it, I think, is all the unwillingness to discipline children physically. Another major component seems to be the explosion of uncontrollable kids. If it was ever this bad before, I never noticed.

This is most definitely not a police matter. I doubt he'll be convicted of stealing something that would be a gift to him in a few weeks. Unless of course he broke into great grandmothers house while she was away and took the item.

Either way, I agree that this is a family matter and not a police/criminal justice system matter. What happened to the warning of if you go snooping for your xmas presents and find them then they'll just be taken back to the store or given away to needy children?? Following through with that sort of punishment would probably have a better effect on the child. It's not uncommon for children at this age to go find their christmas presents ... it is uncommon for someone to call the police on their own children over a trivial matter.

As far as the corporal punishment issue ... most states do not allow much in the way of physical punishment against children, as it is generally not neccessary. Here in California the rule of thumb is that corporal punishment must not leave any marks to be lawful. Even a small bruise would be considered excessive. This is one of the reasons many parents are hesistant to use physical force to reprimand a child. Personally, I rarely spank unless it is a safety issue ... time outs and other punishments work just as well; positive reinforcement works even better.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
I posted this in OCE because I think we're building towards something. Many parents see their children as a hassle, a bother, an inconvenience. They would just as soon have the state raise their kids.

We're basically there already. The state determines how your child is to educated, medicated, and disciplined. You, the parent, can go to jail if you disagree with the state in these matters. The police can interview your child without you present, without even informing you of the event. The schools can bring in psychologists, therapists, probably even hypnotists, without even informing you. They can mandate treatment, even dangerous treatment, and you have no say.

So what are parents doing, while all this goes on? They just keep ignoring the situation, and don't seem to care overly much. After all, there haven't been any large protests in Washington demanding more parents' rights.

Opinions?

There are some arguments that I can see in here ... the state largely decides how your child is educated and disciplined (ie mandatory education and limited corporal punishment) but without these rules there are parents out there who would severly beat their children (there's enough of that going on as it is) and there are others who wouldn't bother to teach their children at all. These legal requirements are the expectations that society places upon its citizens.

As far as the medicate issue that is by and far largely a parental issue. What type of medical attention you seek and what medication your child is on is up to the parent. They can't require, for example, your child to be put onto Ritalin ... they can push it and try to send you to their doctor ... but you have a choice of talking to other experts and deciding what is best or even if anything is needed.

The few cases I can remember where the state stepped in was children with cancer who were refusing, with parental support, to go to their treatments and choosing to either die or go to totally unproven alternatives instead. I can't say that its right for the state to step into those matters but it's much different than the state having total control over our medical concerns.

I do have problems with filling people with drugs

my example is a common one

My mother had troubles with her... hmm monthly problem...

It would hurt bad

So dailily, she gets an injection that prevents her from being... you know

So far so nice.... the problem is that her personnality changed a lot...

She stress a lot more than she used to...

Oh I still love her as much but even my brother and father think she changed since those injections....

Ok, I am a teen right now, im 16, and Id have to say that a smack when i act disrespectful does do a lot better than just "asking nicely to stop." Parents today just dont command the kind of respect over thier kids like they should, or used to. I dont really see a problem with "spanking", or similar stuff, because it works. If its done in anger or fustration, then I see it as wrong, but if the parent really belives that it wil help make the child listen, then why not do it. Belive me, being punished in my room, doesent work, besides, since when is the government supposed to tell parents how to raise thier children? I think it should be up to the parents to raise thier child, and they should use whatever tools they have avaliable. Corporal Punishment may not be "moral" in most peoples opinions, but id have to say that it works.



[edit on 12/10/2006 by The_Time_is_now]

Ethnic cleansing also works, but Im not an advocate of that

BUT, I do agree that a little corporal punishment should be allowed

I got a few smacks when I was younger, and Im glad for it

It did a better job and it made me understand how wrong I was

I bet he was angry that she was giving him a Game Boy, which has been obsolete since 1995.

I doubt the child will have this on his record, the mother wanted to teach something to the "teenager", and the police agreed to do this, maybe they even knew the 12 year old and some of the things he did, which is why I think they would have agreed to do this.

If a parent consents police officers sometimes use these sort of tactics to keep teenagers from comitting crimes, and instead to teach them a lesson, it has been happening for a long time...

Did you know that there are different programs to be used for "difficult teenagers" when they go over the line? Such as bootcamp for teenagers, for teenagers who insult their "single mothers and go over the line insulting or abusing their own mother"... or teenagers visiting prisons and the police letting prisoners talk to them, under supervision of course, so they can see what is waiting for them if they continue with the life they lead.... but i guess some people think teenagers should do whatever they want no matter what....


[edit on 11-12-2006 by Muaddib]

Woah, wait a second Muaddib. Who's saying that the kid should be able to do what he wants?

I think what most folks are saying boils down to 'the state is not a nanny or a surrogate parent, don't use the cops to discipline your kid' - in so many words.

Parents these days seem less and less willing to discipline their own children, or even pay attention to them half the time. As a result, we've got packs of feral children running wild all over the country.

People don't seem to be saying that kids should be able to do whatever they want. People seem to be saying the exact opposite, that parents need to be parents, set boundaries, enforce them, and serve as a positive example.

Who here is saying that kids should be able to do whatever they want?

Originally posted by Muaddib
I doubt the child will have this on his record, the mother wanted to teach something to the "teenager", and the police agreed to do this, maybe they even knew the 12 year old and some of the things he did, which is why I think they would have agreed to do this.

If a parent consents police officers sometimes use these sort of tactics to keep teenagers from comitting crimes, and instead to teach them a lesson, it has been happening for a long time...
[edit on 11-12-2006 by Muaddib]

The problem is that police officers are not parents nor are they some sort of security officer for the parents to use to "scare" their children. Unfortunately it has becommen somewhat common for parents to call police when they're children act up. What exactly do you want the police to do with a 14 year old who won't do his homework ... won't finish his chores ... or is being mouthy with his parents (all prime examples of reasons people call). Basically the parent has had 14 years to mess up their child but want someone to come over and fix the situation within a few minutes. In my opinion having the police show up because mom/dad can't control their child does nothing but reinforce to the children that their parents have no control/authority over them.

The other issue is in most cases the police can not do anything, save maybe a stern lecture (which is a parental responsibility), as they have to have specific legal cause to detain someone or put them into handcuffs, regardless of parental wishes. Police can't just throw little Johnny in cuffs and take him down the station and put him in a cell for an hour to "scare" him straight, unless he committed a crime. If he did commit a crime then they can do that if they plan on filing charges with the DA's office ... most parents don't want that. The bootcamps are private outfits and if parents want to sign releases of liability with them that is a personal choice.

Here's an example of some of the typical requests people will make to the police on the child rearing lines (at least ones I've heard of personally):

* My 6 year old won't put away his toys and is throwing a tantrum.

* My 7 year old and 9 year old are fighting again. You guys need to have somone come over and take care of them, but don't arrest them for anything.

* My (fill in any age from 10 to 17 for this one) won't get up and go to school. I need an officer to come make them go to school. This also applies to my 10-17 year old won't do their homework.

* My 12 year old is talking back to me and I want someone to come over and put the fear of god into her.

I could go on but what's the point ... these parents have very unreasonable expectations of thier local law enforcement. The best of all is the occasional parent who is tired of arguing with the pre-teen or young teen and wants the police to come and take junior away (like to a foster home). We're not talking about the kids who are stealing cars, committing crimes and can't seem to stay out of trouble and making the family life terrible ... but just a typical kid going through growing pains or whatever and mom/dad don't want to take the time to weather out the storm of having to argue with them everyday and force them to be responsible and act properly ... they'd rather have them taken off to a shelter and put into the foster system. To me that's scary ... why'd you have the kid in the first place???

Remember that police dispatcher (in TX I believe) from a few months ago that asked the mom "what do you want us to do come over and shoot them?" (the kids were fighting or something). Definitely an inappropriate comment but the reason he let it out was these calls are becoming fairly commonplace and it's such a tax on resources.

Originally posted by Muaddib
I doubt the child will have this on his record, the mother wanted to teach something to the "teenager", and the police agreed to do this, maybe they even knew the 12 year old and some of the things he did, which is why I think they would have agreed to do this.

If a parent consents police officers sometimes use these sort of tactics to keep teenagers from comitting crimes, and instead to teach them a lesson, it has been happening for a long time...

If all that the police had done was put the kid in the back of their cruiser and drive around the block a few times I might agree with you, but taking the kid to the local station in cuffs and then actually booking and charging him with a crime is completely different. The only way this kid avoids a blotch on his record is if the DA declines to prosecute, which I hope he will. It send the wrong message to parents who refuse to take responsibilty for their own children's behaviour.

Well I will tell all of you this .. I have been BEATEN .. not Spanked or Whooped I was beaten many times ... Till I bled on my legs a couple times .. My parents beat me outta frusturation sometimes just having abad day and I wouldn't be able to fin dthe Channel Changer or something ... But over all I grew up and it has all taught me that fighting is not the way to go ... Don't let your emotions run your life ... and lots of other things that I will be able to pass onto my kids because of these things that I would have never learned if it weren't for my dad beating the hell outta me .. Anyways .... adios

Reading things like this make me very thankful for my parents.

Mom spanked me a couple times, but it was no big deal. It didn't really have much of an impact on me.

Dad hit me once... and I hit him right back. We came to an understanding right there and then.

Overall, they were able to keep me (mostly) in line through teaching me respect (which I was afraid to lose) and by making me dealing with the consequences of my own actions. If I got in trouble they would be there for me, but I had to deal with it myself. It helped tremendously that they would listen to my side and would back me up if they felt I was in the right (which occurred a couple times when I came into conflict with some bad teachers).

Because I was so lucky with my good parents, I've always been somewhat mystified by bad parents. How could you possibly inflict this sort of crap upon your own offspring? How can you make your petty greed a higher priority than raising your children? How can people be so damned selfish?

Well... I guess it's all part of the same big problem. These days the social pressure and mass-media message of blind consumerism has conditioned too many people into having screwed up priorities.
It's bad now and it's going to get worse.

Side note: on the forced medicating of children...
HOLY CRAP!
Umm, how much more Orwellian can you get? That smacks of 1994 all over the place! Happy little collectives of drug addled youths that will grow up destroyed by mind-numbing chemicals.
Stuff like this makes me think we're just flat out Doomed.

Respect !?!?! HAHAHAHA ... You hit your dad back !?!? I would never hit my dad .. if he asked me to go get the belt .. to this day I woudl respect him and go get it for him ... It taught me that although I thought I was right .. and there were times I was right that it didn't matter !!! ... It also taught me basically there will be situations in life that you will run into that you can't change ... Such as things that most of you will never be able to ever understand. It is more feelings towards situations that others just don't feel because they weren't raised the same ... ...

Originally posted by BitRaiser
Reading things like this make me very thankful for my parents.

Mom spanked me a couple times, but it was no big deal. It didn't really have much of an impact on me.

Dad hit me once... and I hit him right back. We came to an understanding right there and then.

Overall, they were able to keep me (mostly) in line through teaching me respect (which I was afraid to lose) and by making me dealing with the consequences of my own actions. If I got in trouble they would be there for me, but I had to deal with it myself. It helped tremendously that they would listen to my side and would back me up if they felt I was in the right (which occurred a couple times when I came into conflict with some bad teachers).

Because I was so lucky with my good parents, I've always been somewhat mystified by bad parents. How could you possibly inflict this sort of crap upon your own offspring? How can you make your petty greed a higher priority than raising your children? How can people be so damned selfish?

Well... I guess it's all part of the same big problem. These days the social pressure and mass-media message of blind consumerism has conditioned too many people into having screwed up priorities.
It's bad now and it's going to get worse.

Side note: on the forced medicating of children...
HOLY CRAP!
Umm, how much more Orwellian can you get? That smacks of 1994 all over the place! Happy little collectives of drug addled youths that will grow up destroyed by mind-numbing chemicals.
Stuff like this makes me think we're just flat out Doomed.