Originally posted by ape
you are the one getting out of line taking shots me at me, first of all why dont you use some logic and recognise that pakistan is only a threat if
musharaff falls something you did not highlight on at all, you just stated that pakistan has the same views as iran WHICH IS FALSE and if they are a
threat to israel with nuclear weapons and I answered and will do so again...
You said I should do more research on Pakistan. I felt that was unfounded and irrelevant esp since you didn't know how much I knew or didn't about
Musharraf is NOT Pakistan.. Pakistan POLICY is Pakistan. It would suit you to do a bit more research on Pakistani policy vis-a-vis Israel..
Here's an appiteser:
A large majority of the a2a kills during the Yom Kippur wars and indeed wars leading up to it by non-israeli aircraft AGAINST Israeli is by PAF pilots
outsourced to various middle eastern airforces. Yes, Pakistan overtly supported the anti Israel coalition during these wars.
my whole opinion is based on what you presented in your first post, I quoted only what you said and you did not highlight wether or not you meant if
the jihadist take over so I based my reponse on musharaffs leadership.
Musharraf operates on a strategic roadmap laid out for Pakistan and the only deviations from this roadmap has been the severance of ties with the
taliban. All other primary objectives are unchanged.Infact Musharraf was instrumental in carving out this map for the better part of the last decade;
if you would like, see how Israel fits into this roadmap
Agreed Pakistan is not as vocal as Iran is w.r.t. its views on Israel. That doesn't change anything.
And a good example is Osirak. Israeli judgement on that operation showed that it recognised a threat from a US ALLY and engaged that threat even
though the threat was not imminent at the time. Iraq was NOT a radical Muslim state when Osirak happened. It was probably one of the most secular
outfits in the middle east at the time. Also it showed no 'open' and immediate hostitlity to Israel, esp since it was involved in an all-out war
Some people need to look beyond the belief that anti-israelism is only islam-radicalism driven.
en.wikipedia.org...:GreaterMiddleEast2.png pakistan is apart of the 'greater' middle east and ends with pakistan, I dont care what
excuse you give me this is documented I suggest you do some reading.
I wouldn't rob you of that:
The term 'Greater Middle East' is not coined on geographical proximities or similarities. I'm sure you know that.
The collective term is grouping countries on an other marker:
A marker introduced by none other than :
This expanded term was introduced in the summer of 2004 at a G8 summit by U.S. President George W. Bush as part of a proposal for
sweeping change in the way the West deals with the Middle East. This initiative is aimed at the Muslim world in the region and promoted heavily by
neoconservative think tanks such as Project for the New American Century.
It includes countries like Mauritiana, yes Mauritiana. Mairitiana a part of the middle east: Why? Because the grouping factor here is not geography,
Then I thought, if we're talking religious profiling of nations than why not include India as well? After all India has more muslims than any other
'greater middle eastern' nation..
(from your source again)
Occasionally North India is also included because of the role Islam and Muslim culture plays there.
Whoever wrote that wiki doesn't know that the muslim presence in central and south India is also just as significant.
Here's a bit about the this 'greater middle east' eating into the CARS as well:
Various Central Asian countries and the lower Caucasus (Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Georgia) are sometimes also included
Infact if you're looking for the 'greater middle east' then you might as well use
definition. If you include India, you can
contiguously extend all the way to Indonesia: the state with the highest muslim population in the world.
So there: your greater middle east
is nothing but neo-con redraw attempt of world map. We who leave in this region think otherwise, thank
ok back to topic:
NO, they are not a threat because musharaff is somewhat stable and would recognise that MAD would come into play, israel has SSBN's how many SSBN's
does pakistan have? full retaliation infact I think israel would wipe out pakistan and still exist, no way would they get caught off guard.
Israeli SSBNs from a peripheral google search here
Please share some info with us on these 'Israeli SSBNs'.
While you're at it, take a look at the publicised and documented n-weapons arsenal and delivery systems possessed by Pakistan as of today.
The only thing that even comes close to your Israeli SSBNs is the speculation that the new Dolphin class SSKs(note: not SSBNs) to be obtained by
Israel will have a cruise missile capability. This capability can possibly take on a nuclear avaatar.
Now what kind of nuclear cruise missiles IF at all any:
1) Possibly nuclear-tipped Harpoons? That would severely limit the capabilities only to the 'real' middle east. A second strike on Pakistan using a
SSKs would require it to come all the way down to the Arabian Sea. Also these are ASCMs and wouldhave to be converted to LACMs.
2)Popeye-Turbo? Again even the optimistic estimates limit it to under 300km. Not much better than the harpoons, in terms of reach.
3)Nuclear-tipped long-range BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missiles would be a better bet. Range would be about 1500km and LACM capability would be
inherent. I believe there are some rumors that Israel tested this in 2000 sometime in the Indian Ocean. Unsustantiated but lets give it the benefit of
Lets say they conceivably can fit SLCMs onto those Dolphins with nuclear warheads. What kind of payload/yield capability would these LACMs have?
Again one must optimistically assume that Israel has mastered the art of warhead minaturisation, to the extent that they can fit these onto SLCMs(Only
the elite N weapons states have this capability).
A 200KT W-80 type warhead onto each missile would be the wildest outer estimate of such a capability. Again the thermonuclear capability of Israel is
also highly unlikely; they are perceived to only possess boosted fision devices.
It is ONLY in this BGM 109 SLCM+W-80 type 200KT+Dolphin SSK scenario that Israel can possibly concieve a MAD capable second strike ability with
Pakistan. And that too only if they are able to succesfully use atleast 5 of these.
Too many ifs for me.
Pakistan on the other hand needs a single(maybe a couple)5-15KT warheads
to decimate Israel.
Israel does have the upper hand with respect to ABM defenses, however.