What's the connection? Take the challenge.

OK folks, let separate the true believers from the posers.

What relation do the Mayan calendar, Nazi symbolism, Freemasonry's Ouroboros and Johannes Kepler share?

No hints yet. Please be specific.

errr
the sun and time

the mayan calendar (although you might have mentioned that it originated with the Olmec) is a calendar that measures time and is knmown as the sun calendar because of the peculiar way that the people who used it described eons as suns

the Nazi Swastika is based on the sanskrit symbol which in turn is based on an ancient armenian symbol which originally was designed to show the suns movements through the year. as such it is a heliacal sun sign

the Ouroborus is another symbol that shows the passage of time although with the claim that it is circular so the further you go along the passing of time the closer you come back to the start

Johannes keppler was the dude (german mathemetician) who worked out that the planets move in elliptical orbits around the sun.(i.e. non circular)

so they all have to do with the suns movements over time although to be fair Keppler is to do with the planets and not the sun at all which he imagined was completely static

either that or the fact that they all have had a lot of complete crap written about them over the years
I'm hoping your idea is going to be different


[edit on 5-12-2006 by Marduk]

Originally posted by MrMicrophone
OK folks, let separate the true believers from the posers.

What relation do the Mayan calendar, Nazi symbolism, Freemasonry's Ouroboros and Johannes Kepler share?

No hints yet. Please be specific.

They've been tied together by a lot of folks who don't know much about the subject.

Seriously.

The calendar is just a calendar. It has days, dates, and an ending. It doesn't have any prophecies written on the face of it or around it. It's just a giant clock. Any prophecies/interpretations come from things that were NOT found with the calendar. They also failed to predict the end of their civilization (the Mayan civilization collapsed around 1000 AD.) The Aztecs, who picked up the calendar and carved it into stone also failed to predict a lot of important things.

As a prediction tool, it's about as useful as my Garfield calendar.

And Nazi Symbolism... ye gods... which symbols? They had a bunch of them, from the twin lightning bolts to the swastika and so on and so forth. If you're trying to change it into Jormungandr (the tree-swallower) of Norse legend, that's a real stretch:
altreligion.about.com...


Now, I don't know if that's where you're going, but frankly you need to stop and look at sources before you decide this has any truth to it.

As for the Masons, my dad was one (33rd degree and a Shriner) and my brother was one and so was my first husband. I was in the Eastern Star, so I know quite a bit about the subject. The "Freemasonry's Ouroboros" is the most absurd thing I've seen. Alchemy had the ouroboros... not freemasonry.

It doesn't matter how often we all say this:
freemasonry.bcy.ca...

...there's still a lot of stupid web pages by people who have never been within a mile of a Masonic lodge that keep insisting the link is there. It's part of a badge design for two ranks in one lodge house. My husband had those same ranks and it's not on his office emblems. Or mine. Or in the lodge (the women help clean the lodge... we know where the Stuff Is Hidden.) Masons aren't in to Kepler or astronomy (as a rule) or calculus. They don't like Nazis. We aren't interested in gnawing on the tree that holds the world up and we aren't on a grand mission to teach the world to be civilized. We don't use or believe in the Mayan calendar. We don't care if it's 12 Bakun or whatever.

The Nazis were into Norse mythology, so Jormungander was a minor part but didn't signify knowledge or esoteric teachings. Jormungander's sole purpose is to gnaw away at the root of the World Tree. They used Kepler's mathematics (and math derived by others who followed him) to calculate trajectories, but everyone else did, too. They executed Masons. They weren't into Mayans (whom they would have seen as a race to subjugate.) They didn't find the Gnostic libraries until after Nazi Germany fell... and I don't think the libraries were responsible for the downfall. I think Eisenhower and his fellow generals were.

Kukulcan was a cultural hero (emblem the winged serpent) of the Mayans and is more akin to Prometheus in that he taught people to be civilized. He isn't associated with esoteric or hidden learning, he isn't associated with the Masons, and he doesn't gnaw at the root of the tree that holds Earth so that Earth will fall and the Fimbulwinter can start and if he existed, he lived about 2200 years before Kepler. As far as we can tell, the Mayans weren't into calculus or Naziism.

Kepler may have had some attachment to the Ouroboros but he certainly didn't write much about it (speculation doesn't mean knowledge). He doesn't appear to be fascinated by tree-gnawing serpents or cultural heroes ala Prometheus ... and he lived long after the Mayan culture disintegrated and before the Mayan calendar was discovered or much was known about them. And the Masons didn't exist until 1717, so Kepler wasn't involved with them. He didn't know about the Nazis but probably wouldn't have approved of them. Gnosticism was before his time.

The Mayans weren't into calculus, Kepler, alchemy, fascism, gnostocism, or Nordic Mythology since their culture was dead and gone by the time all those came around.

You can force the connections, but when you look deeper you see that the threads run different ways. Now, the connection between the Germans and the idealized Nordic mythology... that's fascinating and deserves exploring.

The connection between Kepler's personal beliefs and his approach to math...that's fascinating, as is Tycho Brahe's and the group of scholars known to be interested in both science and alchemy and how that impacted modern science. Fascinating stuff and deserves more exploring.

Kukulcan's transformation from a Hiawatha figure (another culture hero who taught the same thing) to a god is interesting. Looking for an older culture figure just like him in the Olmecs may point to an original model. And there were some AmerInd figures (Hiawatha) who were real people but were turned into culture heroes (and maybe some to gods)... following those heroes through languages related to one another -- that could show some interesting insights about what folks thought when.

But culture bashing stuff together just because you find the symbols similar?

If that's where you're going, then "Naaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhh."

[edit on 5-12-2006 by Indellkoffer]

ok so its been two days since i took the challenge
and it looks like it was nonsense after all

Sorry for the delay, I've been swamped at work and my laptop crashed.

And yes you are absolutely correct. Where I was going with this thread was the mathematical correlations. I noticed that during runs on simulations with the flows of vector fields, it was possible to not only produce representations of the Ouroboros, Swastika, and the calendar within a calendar, within a calendar of the Mayan's.

I believe there is a deep mathematical connection between all.

Thank you for your detailed post, very informative, you know your stuff!

did you play too much with Spirograph as a child. Vector fields produce circular pictures that are open to interpetation. all the things you mentioned already have a very well established reason for being that shape.
there are examples of swastikas in the caucasus mountains in azerbaijan and Geogia that dates to 8000bce. the people who made them did not know what vector fields were. they did know what the sun was

this will show you what the swastika represents and how it is constructed
this first image is the usual way that the heliacal risings of the sun is represented
this information was known by anyone who ever built a henge aligned to a solsitice (i.e. as far back as 3500bce)


this second image shows you what the radiating lines that change the former image into a swastika represent.

Its not Rocket science is it
its not vector fields either I'm afraid
I am using this iamge as an example but the others that you mentioned sun calendar, ouroborus are just as easily expalined without advanced mathematics

Actually I did have one as a child

I'm referring to the flows of vector fields is the divergence of the vector field while the rotation of the sides: the curl. (-y/(x/\2+y/\2), x/(x/\2+y/\2))

There is also evidence of ancient civilizations with extensive knowledge of astronomy and the mathematics to make the computations possible.

The alignment of the certain constellations predicted thousands of years before with amazing precision, geographical and celestial alignments of structures, etc. not done by persons ignorant to mathematics.

Also, why the adversarial tone? Again, thanks for the response.

What do these things have to do with one another?

EVERYTHING...

and the rest of everything, too....it is just not apparent all at once (it would suck you in with the force of the biggest supernova blackhole there ever was! )

...nor is it apparent to anyone who see things through filters.

Filters:

labels
clique-ish social tendencies
comparison as a means for validation
self-justification

There is only ONE truth that is the underlying reality (in the sense that love is and also light)

LIFE

there is NO death...the cycles of the Earth - in which mortal flesh is an inherent part of the whole continuous rotation...is eternal life on the higher scale!

If you can step back away from personal, inherent, and oft-disguised, mortal fear and look at it from say, maybe....Pluto or Chiron...(maybe even the moon - after seeing Apollo 13 I have my suspicions about such an experience and what it brings)

The swastika is fundamentally a symbol for the life force...that drives all..the circle with the x in the middle represents earth and is the same, essentially, as the swastika....LIFE.

Life goes on.
There is no 'after' life...what comes after something which does not end?

Obladi Oblada Life Goes On
yeah la la la
Life Goes On

:shk:

Of course - try and convince someone of that! Even with your beautiful and perfect mathematical PROOF of the infinite curve....no one wants to really possess the immortality that they outwardly seek.

Prisoners of our own devices, for the most part!


Have you tried the Fibonacci sequence in your equation?

Also, why the adversarial tone?

there wasn't one
but you should realise that the examples you give make no sense being fitted into modern mathematics just because you can
its like saying that the Egyptians had all the materials to make a stealth bomber but they didn't but they could have because we can
but they didn't
but they could have
know what I mean

Of course - try and convince someone of that! Even with your beautiful and perfect mathematical PROOF of the infinite curve....no one wants to really possess the immortality that they outwardly seek.

try to convince someone of that when they have done the neccesary research that proves otherwise and they'll tell you that you can stick your immortality where the Fibonnacci don't shine
thats because they know better than to ascribe to ideals that have already been proven highly speculative if not totally imaginary
you sound like Madame Blavatsky Queenannie
case of reincarnation methinks

but of course don't try to prove that either
all the best proof is that which you know for yourself which can only be learned by experience
you can't teach that
so don't bother

Originally posted by Marduk
try to convince someone of that when they have done the neccesary research that proves otherwise and they'll tell you that you can stick your immortality where the Fibonnacci don't shine

Proving otherwise as in: there is a death that is an end?
How can anyone prove that? Only by coming back and knowing it can LIFE be proven...but death is still just a suspicion.

thats because they know better than to ascribe to ideals that have already been proven highly speculative if not totally imaginary

Well, surely that is true - for them. However I know better than to distrust my visions and such when I've had a 100% hit ratio, so far...

you sound like Madame Blavatsky Queenannie
case of reincarnation methinks

Actually, no - it was Annie Besant. Go figure...

but of course don't try to prove that either
all the best proof is that which you know for yourself which can only be learned by experience
you can't teach that
so don't bother

EXACTLY! But - by the same understanding I also can't overlook any opportunity to share my understandings with someone who might be of similar experiences leading to their own personal convictions and further learning. Because while i would not attempt to change or shape another's understanding...i can confirm that which is shared and in that way they might become stronger in their ability to discern...you know confirmation is important for all human beings - in all things.

It is resonance that will bring things together - not any human voice or mind...or even God...or whatever..

Just one vibration with intent is needed to bring all into the same frequency, eventually.

So far, for 1000's of years we've had bits and pieces here and there...and little scattered fires in the corners...but the world is soon to be ablaze! Watch and see!

We all have a part in it, too...we just don't realize that these are parts and not complete in themselves - they make us both individually important as well as united...

Originally posted by MrMicrophone
Where I was going with this thread was the mathematical correlations. I noticed that during runs on simulations with the flows of vector fields, it was possible to not only produce representations of the Ouroboros, Swastika, and the calendar within a calendar, within a calendar of the Mayan's.

Erm... does that mean you were playing with this page and decided the patterns reminded you of those things? (I don't see the Masonic connection at all, BTW.)
sunsite.ubc.ca...

I'm referring to the flows of vector fields is the divergence of the vector field while the rotation of the sides: the curl. (-y/(x/\2+y/\2), x/(x/\2+y/\2))

Erm... that's not actually the equation that forms the shapes you see. That's just the variable (the "magnitude" referred to in this Wikipedia article: en.wikipedia.org...(spatial) ) and requires more differential geometry than I'm able to deal with.

I know the ancients had some sophisticated mathematics, but I think you'll have problems proving that they could actually calcuate a scalar field using the tools to do this with, differential geometry.

It does make a series of pretty pictures, though.

I thought I'd explain a bit more about the previous.

The page in my link (if that's the one you were studying) shows a flat area; a "matrix" of numbers and positions. The equation you listed says "what kind of warp do you want to put in that area."

So we have a table of numbers, but some of them are replaced by a "if you put a number here, this is the math you have to do to it" formula.

You then draw a shape on that landscape (area) and the program starts running. It first moves the shape across the field (so you need the math to calculate what happens to it as it moves so you know where it is and what shape it is at what point of time. Then it hits the "warp" area.

When it hits the warp area, it starts doing functions on the function. So, say the first number is 25... then it hits the "warp" and is told that the next position is (this is a simple example) x+3, y/2. It moves to the new position and a new function (like x*4,y/2) is given to it and that is processed.

And that is done for every point on the line or shape that you draw, and the whole thing is constantly in motion.

To get a simple circle out of it, the computer has done upwards of a thousand calculations on that field of numbers... and then plotted the results several hundred times.

Sooooo... the Mayans/Masons/Norse/Nazis, etc would have had to perform complex math functions several thousand times to derive just one circle. I don't know if you've ever tried to do 400 equations for one location, but it's awfully time-consuming. Multiply that by one location for every pixel on that screen, and you're talking an awful lot of math, even if it is very simple.

Kepler did have the advantage of knowing about calculus, but we're still talking about several hundred equations, even in a number system far less cumbersome than Mayan numerals.

...and that's why it doesn't seem to be a very likely explaination. And I think you'll find that ancient civilizations didn't do things that required thousands of calculations.

[edit on 7-12-2006 by Byrd]

Byrd,

What? You been boning up on your math?

Surprised to see you waxing eloquent on Vector Analysis.

Mr. Microphone,

Mathematics applies to practically every single thing that exists or can be imagined. There are huge fields of math that were completely abstract when they were founded, yet today apply in a perfectly logical way to physical models that were previously unconsidered.

Vector analysis is but one such area. No doubt someday in the future even more physical models will be constructed that other mathematical constructs, that are today abstract, will apply quite well to.

It's not unusual, IOW, to find a thing that advanced mathematics can be applied to or used to create a mathematical model of.

Harte

[edit on 11-12-2006 by VitalOverdose]