Days of dogfights over?

Just watched a program on smart weapons. In it they talked a bit about ANRAAM (?) and this got me thinking.
With such stand off weapons, are the days of true dogfights over?

The days of the true dog fight have been over for a long while.

AMRAAM...AIM-120 AMRAAM to be exact.

I think they are pretty much over but not totally.
There will be some cases of 'dog-fights' but they will be few and far inbetween....

The future of air-warfare, for any nation, is leaning, and has been, towards doctrines of BVR engagements.
Again, this doesn't eliminate the case of 'dog-fights' but it makes them very few in numbers.

Missile technology and electronics is slowly and surly making 'dog-fights' insignificant as a standard air-warfare doctrine.....for any nation.


regards
seekerof

I agree, Seekerof. Eventually directed energy weapons will mean that a kill can be made a microsecond after a target is detected. Human reactions will not figure in it at all... but it all depends what technologies will appear in the future.

Remember, 80% of all kills are made on the first pass, anyway.

I think the future will eliminate the cockpit pilot. As aircraft moves faster.-> that is above the limits of human endurance, the pilots will be on the ground in vr simulators..

Originally posted by groovyguru
I think the future will eliminate the cockpit pilot. As aircraft moves faster.-> that is above the limits of human endurance, the pilots will be on the ground in vr simulators..

This sucks we will not have anymore DOGFIGHTS.

I hate COMPUTERS!

Its all about SKILL of the HUMANS!

STOP WORLD STOP THE TECHNOLOGY ADVANCE toward the UCAV!

Originally posted by Russian

Originally posted by groovyguru
I think the future will eliminate the cockpit pilot. As aircraft moves faster.-> that is above the limits of human endurance, the pilots will be on the ground in vr simulators..

This sucks we will not have anymore DOGFIGHTS.

I hate COMPUTERS!

Its all about SKILL of the HUMANS!

STOP WORLD STOP THE TECHNOLOGY ADVANCE toward the UCAV!

this is the truth even if we tried to completely stop, would we really everyday, everythign we do wouldnt that be contributing to technology, wouldnt we all be advancing ourselves in skill physically and mentally? think about it!

Dogfights will happen when you do not have anything else to fight with.

A skilled pilot may be the only pilot that survives in the long run.

Originally posted by THENEO
Dogfights will happen when you do not have anything else to fight with.

A skilled pilot may be the only pilot that survives in the long run.

and that will be very rare occations.

Originally posted by Russian

Originally posted by THENEO
Dogfights will happen when you do not have anything else to fight with.

A skilled pilot may be the only pilot that survives in the long run.

and that will be very rare occations.

true since now everything is done using navigation and computer, a pilot nearly needs to flip a switch and then the enemy is dead no skill envolved, a monkey could do it, all he needs to know is how to fly a multi million dollar piece of military hardware

Dogfights, although brutal, was what fascinated me about air-wars when I was a kid but all this # justs takes all the romance out of air combat.

[Edited on 24-11-2003 by UndergroundNetwork]

Those pilots who fought in World War I were some real warriors. Out there in the open air, twisting and turning, trying to get a bead on your enemy... They actually had some idea of chivalry and mercy too. They were close enough to actually see the other pilot.

Now our pilots just sit in their comfy little high-tech jets and press a button. They rarely ever even see the plane they're destroying. They don't even face any real competition. The only thing they have to worry about is ground fire. I mean, when's the last time a US plane was shot down by an enemy plane? Vietnam?

edit: Red Baron and Red Baron II are the #!!!

[Edited on 11/24/2003 by Flinx]

I don't think so. The term dogfight refers to air-to air combat in which the combatants try to out menuver each other in order to gain the advantage and make a kill. As for the issue of tradition, Remeber: the dog fight has been evolving steadly since the First World War. The tactics change contantly as the technology of the aircraft change.

Tim

I seem to remember before vietnam the airforce said dogfights are over get rid of guns welcome F4 Oh dear
better have a topgun school to teach what had been forgotten

Yes, I remember those articles speaking such about Vietnam....
The difference is that electronics, missile technology, etc. has greatly increased since Vietnam....
Also, world Air Forces were not building air doctrines and aircraft around todays concepts and advancements....in such, todays world air forces are doing such.
Again, the age of "dog-fighting" as being the majority of air combat are virtually over. Today's air doctrines and future doctrines will and are leaning to position, who detects first, who fires first.....
Dog-fights will occur but will be minor cases, not the norm.


regards
seekerof

The most important mind when it comes to dogfighting is the one that taught Manfred von Richtofen his deadly craft. Oswald Boelke. He commanded the jagstaffel that Richtofen joined and he was the great aces "master".

Oswald Boelke developed a series of "commandments" he called his Dicta Boelke. They are so fundamental to aerial combat they are still taught today.

The Dicta Boelke by Oswald Boelke
� Rule 1:
Try to secure advantages before attacking. If possible, keep the sun behind you.
� Rule 2:
Always carry through an attack when you have started it.
� Rule 3:
Fire only at close range, and only when your opponent is properly in your sights.
� Rule 4:
Always keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses.
� Rule 5:
In Any form of attack it is essential to assail your opponent from behind.
� Rule 6:
If your opponent dives on you, do not try to evade his onslaught, but fly to meet it.
� Rule 7:
When over the enemy's lines never forget your own line of retreat.
� Rule 8:
For the Staffel: Attack on principle in groups of four or six. When the fight breaks up into a series of single combats, take care that several do not go for one opponent.

These rules are posted in every manual on aerial combat. They are the airman's ten commandments. The tools of today's air warrior haven't change the reality of air combat just increased the distance that you can effect your will upon the enemy, and the speed of which it happens.

In the evolution of warfare defense overcomes offense then offense overcomes defense and tactics adapt with all.

One of the major keys to US military doctrine is to attain theatre air superiority. It has been this way since WWII, and in a combined arms war it will always be this way.

The only thing that technology has done it has shortened the amount of time that it takes for one side to attain air superiority.

Dogfighting will never go away. The only thing that changes is how far away, how long does it take.

hrxll

[Edited on 1-12-03 by HerExcellency]

US air doctrines are shifting as per this example:
"Stealth gives the F-22 the advantage in beyond visual range (BVR) engagements by allowing him the choice of engaging or avoiding a hostile aircraft. His situation can unfold rapidly because of supercruise. The ability for the pilot of the F-22 to not be detected until it is too late is very important in a BVR engagement."
Link:
f22rap.virtualave.net...

The ability to remain undetected, unseen, at BVR ranges, amounts to who detects first and who fires first.
No...dog-fights will remain, as a last alternative, but the modern air doctrines are going the way of BVR.
If you have two 'Raptors' flying in formation, one that is 'active' and the other that is not......when encountering another hostile formation, the one that is active will be detected while leaving the other undetected.....just a scenerio but it is effective in luring a hostile aircraft(s) to the prey.


regards
seekerof

Originally posted by jetsetter
The days of the true dog fight have been over for a long while.

When pilots on both sides know what it is that they are supposed to do, these actions usually still end up in dogfights with cannons and ir-missiles..

Ranges are just little more greater and speeds higher than in ww2..

But like in Vietnam..

Both sides had cannons, ir-missiles.. and US had Sparrow bvr-missiles.. yet fights usually were dogfights.. or at least ended up as ones..



USAF/USN desperately trying to down NVAF jets at long range with Sparrows.. which mostly just missed.. and NVAF pilots getting close for gun kills..

The result was that NVAF got 3 US planes for each one lost.. and AAA and SAM got thousands more.. (from 1500-2000 downed.. and god and pentagon knows how many damaged and writen off.. but they wont tell..)

No more dogfights. atleast we have video games