It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Hugo Chavez looks set to be re elected

page: 3
1
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 07:16 PM
link   

Originally posted by Muaddib
That's just because the U.S. is not going to invade Venezuela, despite some people including Chavez claiming the U.S. is going to invade them.....but the fact remains, there are millions of Venezuelans who don't want Chavez and their voices are being silenced.


It might be a shock to you, but that is Democracy. 50% of Americans don't want bush, if not more right now. But it depends on who turns out to vote at the end of the day.

Labour, in the UK, won with only 30% of the popular vote. Is Blair a Dictator? He likes socialism you know....

EDIT: Please see my previous votes debunking your "Protester" pictures, in case you missed it.

[edit on 5/12/06 by stumason]




posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 07:21 PM
link   
No, nice attempt by you to downplay this...

I wonder what in the world is a demonstration in favour of Rosales?....

Those people were marching to support Rosales, which means they are against Chavez.

BTW, I never claimed those pictures were from different demonstrations, even in the last post I gave before yours you can see exactly what I said...

So yeah, nice try....



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 07:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by Muaddib
No, nice attempt by you to downplay this...

I wonder what in the world is a demonstration in favour of Rosales?....

Those people were marching to support Rosales, which means they are against Chavez.

BTW, I never claimed those pictures were from different demonstrations, even in the last post I gave before yours you can see exactly what I said...

So yeah, nice try....


You posted the pictures in response to me saying "there are no reports of demonstrations against the election".

You said they were.

Now your backtracking. You can deny it till your blue in the face, but your posts are there to read. You have been caught out and are to afraid to admit it.

You might, if your feeling in anyway non-partisan, dig out the pictures of HUGE Pro-Chavez rallies.

This is what they do in that part of the world. Have a few rally's, get your supporters out, then go and vote.

I rest my case in that there have, so far, been no post-election demonstrations.



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 07:33 PM
link   
Oh boy, if anyone is trying to spin anything it is you...


The following is what I said and what you responded...




Originally posted by Muaddib

Oh, so i guess there are no protests by Venezuelans as to what is happening over there huh?...it is just "my" opinion?...



: Originally posted by stumason
There's none being reported on the news. even the US amabassador has congratulated venezuela on a free and peaceful election:


But I guess you want to keep claiming a demonstration in favour of Rosales is not a demonstration against Chavez...



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 07:40 PM
link   
And BTW, here is what one of the Venezuelans who toiok those pictures had to say.


The massive outpour seen today in Caracas is by no means an isolated event. Tomorrow or the day after I shall post photos of this week's events in Carora, San Carlos, Valera, Barinas, Merida, Caracas, Valencia and San Felix. A few days ago I invited chavistas reading this site to send pictures of Chavez' rallies similar to the ones I have posted, Chavez being the guy who's going to win hands down the election with 80% support and all, to gather similar crowds would be a piece of cake, wouldn't it? Pictures say otherwise for not even in his native Barinas two days ago was he able to outnumber Rosales' crowd. Don't tell this to MSM representatives though, they may choke with reality.


www.vcrisis.com.../200611251658

But i guess all those people did not rally against Chavez according to you.

BTW, why don't you show me the pictures and videos of the marches in favour of Chavez? The few I have seen are really depressing and i haven't found any pictures of Chavistas in the same manner as those pictures of the demonstration in favour of Rosales.



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 07:40 PM
link   
Just in case you didn't feel like finding pic's of Pro-chavez rallies, i went to the trouble for you:








posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 07:43 PM
link   

Originally posted by Muaddib
Oh boy, if anyone is trying to spin anything it is you...


The following is what I said and what you responded...




Originally posted by Muaddib

Oh, so i guess there are no protests by Venezuelans as to what is happening over there huh?...it is just "my" opinion?...



: Originally posted by stumason
There's none being reported on the news. even the US amabassador has congratulated venezuela on a free and peaceful election:


But I guess you want to keep claiming a demonstration in favour of Rosales is not a demonstration against Chavez...



Your grasp of the English language is obviously limited.

As you can see, I said "There's none being reported on the news. even the US amabassador has congratulated venezuela on a free and peaceful election".

Ergo, as any simpleton can figure out, I was clearly saying there have been no demonstrations after the election.

Those "demonstrations" were political rallies before the vote. Not the same thing.

Chavez had one too that was as equally as large.

[edit on 5/12/06 by stumason]



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 08:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by stumason
Your grasp of the English language is obviously limited.

As you can see, I said "There's none being reported on the news. even the US amabassador has congratulated venezuela on a free and peaceful election".

Ergo, as any simpleton can figure out, I was clearly saying there have been no demonstrations after the election.

Those "demonstrations" were political rallies before the vote. Not the same thing.

Chavez had one too that was as equally as large.

[edit on 5/12/06 by stumason]


Your attempts at ridiculing me are not going to work stumason, if anyone is a simpleton it is oviously you...

How can you respond to my previous post in which I didn't say anything about protests after the elections, and then you want to change the meaning of your response when it is obvious you did not specify what you meant?.... and you were anwsering my post were you not?.... Where did I say anything about protests after elections?... It is still early the election was conducted two days ago.

A demonstration in favour of Rosales, is a demonstration against Chavez, whether it was a week before or after the elections... Those people were there to back Rosales, because they think Chavez is not the right person.

Stop patronizing me and get back on topic.

BTW, over there they also used the Diebold machines. They didn't have only manual centers, there were also automated centers using the Diebold machines...but I guess the same people yelling and screaming that you can rig those machines when they were used in the U.S., have nothing to say when they are used in Venezuela...


[edit on 5-12-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 08:20 PM
link   

Originally posted by stumason
Just in case you didn't feel like finding pic's of Pro-chavez rallies, i went to the trouble for you:







Sorry if I don't put much faith in the last photo you gave, it is not that hard to photoshop, and you can't zoom in the last photo to see whether or not it is real.



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 08:23 PM
link   
Ok, ignoring the attempts by you to spin and slither, lets get back to the subject shall we.

What about the people who turned out to support Chavez? what about the US ambassador and other international groups saying the vote was fair and peaceful? What about the Rasales himself saying the election was fair and they condeded defeat?

How are you going to spin that then, Muaddib?

Regardless wether millions support Rosales, millions more support Chavez. That is democracy, Muaddib. In the US, RIGHT NOW are millions who didn't vote for Shrub. Is the US a Dictatorship?

RIGHT NOW in the UK are millions (more than actually voted Labour, in fact) who don't want Blair as PM. Is that a Dictatorship? Blair is a Socialist too, you know...



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 08:24 PM
link   

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by stumason
Just in case you didn't feel like finding pic's of Pro-chavez rallies, i went to the trouble for you:







Sorry if I don't put much faith in the last photo you gave, it is not that hard to photoshop, and you can't zoom in the last photo to see whether or not it is real.


OMFG! You are not seriously doing that are you?

Oh wait..

You are! Clasping at straws, Muaddib, clasping at straws. If you like, I can produce hundreds of pictures.

How long have you got?



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 08:29 PM
link   
Here's another one to get you started:





posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 08:29 PM
link   
Oooh, here's another:





posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 09:06 PM
link   
Those other pictures are better to see, but still the whole point was when I said there were demonstrations against Chavez you claimed none existed. You were responding to my statement, yet you did not specify anything about before or after elections, you just said none existed and even the oposition leader conceded the defeat. You made the mistake, so now don't try to spin this to your advantage...

OMFG is what I have to say too... Chavez sees a dictator as his mentor, father, and friend, and sees other dictators also as good friends who are also, according to him fighting for the people, when they are not...

Chavez himself has said that whoever signs against him will have to respond to history, because their names will be kept with all their information. These lists have been used against people who opose Chavez... Again, I haven't seen anyone in these forums say a thing about this...

For those who can understand Spanish, here is a video with Chavez saying this clearly.
video.google.com...

At 50 seconds in the video Chavez makes that declaration...yet i guess he is for the good of the people...

Chavez has made several statements in which he mentions that he would like to be in power for as long as castro has, and he has even said he would be in power until 2031 if the people ask for it....but then again, he has also said that if there is a referendum against him and even if the government can certify 90% of the votes are authentic, he will not quit the presidency.... Which is a far cry to what article 72 of the new constitution is supposed to be about, which states clearly that there can be a recall of anyone in power, including the president if 20% of the population signs for such referendum.

In the following link if you go to 6 minutes 40 seconds you can see and hear Chavez say this. Yet some people claim he is for the people?....

www.ideaspublicas.org...

Marg, since you are one of the few people who understands Spanish in this thread can you please look at those videos and tell us whether or not I am saying the truth? Thank you.

I will try to find this in english but I am not sure if I will find it.


BTW, there were threats to Venezuelans in their jobs that if anyone signed the referendum they would be fired, and Venezuelans were fired from tehir jobs for signing the referendum.

at 10 minutes 45 seconds in the link below, which is the same as one of the links above...., you can see some of the Venezuelans who were fired for signing the referendum amke statements as to what happened.
www.ideaspublicas.org...


[edit on 5-12-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 09:27 PM
link   
Here is an excerpt and link to one website i found which backs some of what I said.






Chavez's Alleged Hate List Targets Political Opponents
By Monisha Bansal
CNSNews.com Staff Writer
June 05, 2006

(CNSNews.com) - Since surviving a recall referendum in August 2004, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has tracked and sought to punish the millions of Venezuelans who signed the petitions calling for the referendum, according to a human rights group from that South American country.

"We have a problem in Venezuela and it is the problem of political discrimination," said Maria Angelica Machado Uzcategui, director of international affairs for Ciudadania Activa. "It is like an apartheid there," added Machado, who spoke in Washington, D.C., on Friday.

She said that following the August 2004 recall attempt, Venezuela's Election Commission, which had been appointed by Chavez, ruled that it did not have enough votes to oust the president. However, even before the recall, as petition signatures were being gathered, Chavez told a Venezuelan television station in 2002 that "even if they hold that referendum and get 90 percent of the vote, I won't resign. Forget it."

www.cnsnews.com.../SpecialReports/archive/200606/SPE20060605a.html

Yet i guess he is doing it for the good of the people....

Even more can be found to back the statements I made about those videos i gave which shows what is really happening in Venezuela.


The list, she said, has been subsequently used to carry out threats against Chavez's political opponents. During her June 2 news conference, Machado played video clips of Chavez, one of which contained the Venezuelan president referring to himself in the third person. "Whoever signs against Chavez, will have their names recorded for history," Chavez said.

According to the website belonging to the U.S. Embassy in Caracas, "the information was used to identify for retaliation those who signed the recall petition; some of those identified lost their government jobs, were denied government services, such as passports and identity cards, or were denied access to employment."

Machado said this list has since expanded and taken on a new name -- the "Maisantas list" - referring to Chavez's supporters. It now includes information on the 12 million people in Venezuela's voting population, she said, more and more of whom rely on the government for financial survival since the oil industry and many other jobs are now controlled by Chavez's government.

The "Maisantas list" is also used as a checkpoint on street corners to allow people into the numerous government buildings, banks, and supermarkets, according to Machado.

"They keep a database of everything," she said, noting that those who did not vote for Chavez are liable to lose their jobs and are often denied lines of credit, access to schools, passports, fair trials, and even health care.


The list, according to Machado, is so widely used and available, that it is available from street vendors in Caracas for $10. But since many people fear being classified as a "radical" as opposed to a "patriot" on the list, they do not speak about the discrimination, Machado said.

"Most of what you hear is that the people agree with what the government is doing, but that's not true. They can't speak out or they will end up here," said Machado, pointing to a copy of the "Maisantas list."

www.cnsnews.com.../SpecialReports/archive/200606/SPE20060605a.html

Yet Chavez is fighting for the people...


[edit on 5-12-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 09:52 PM
link   
Lets just clear one thing up. I am not saying Chavez is an Angel. He probably has many faults.

BUT

He does have the support of his people in free and fair elections.

He has polled more support for himself than Tony Blair managed in 2005.

Says alot really.



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 11:27 PM
link   

Originally posted by stumason
Lets just clear one thing up. I am not saying Chavez is an Angel. He probably has many faults.

BUT

He does have the support of his people in free and fair elections.

He has polled more support for himself than Tony Blair managed in 2005.

Says alot really.


Are you out of your mind?... He himself has said that he would not renounce even if they get 90% of the vote to get him out.... he has made statements that he wants to be in power like castro has....he has gotten people fired from their jobs for voting against him, people are threatened, and imprisoned for speaking out against him... yet you want to claim "he has the support of his people in free and fair elections"?...

Obviously you have no idea what is going on over there. Learn Spanish and find out by yourself what he says in his speeches.... then come back and say Venezuela is a free country...



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 11:45 PM
link   
THis is how free people are in Venezuela. This is from 2005.


“By broadening laws that punish disrespect for government authorities, the Venezuelan government has flouted international human rights principles that protect free expression,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “While countries across Latin America are moving to repeal such laws, Venezuela has enacted further restrictions on the press that will shield officials from public scrutiny.”

The amendments extend the scope of existing provisions that make it a criminal offense to insult or show disrespect for the president and other government authorities. Venezuela’s measures run counter to a continent-wide trend to repeal such “disrespect” (or “desacato”) laws. In recent years, Argentina, Costa Rica, Paraguay, and Peru have already repealed such laws, and other countries like Chile and Panama are currently considering legislation that would do so.

hrw.org...

This is not against people who become violent or incite violence, this is to prosecute people who insult or disrespect government officials including the Venezuelan president....

The following is from 2004


Venezuela: Media Law Undercuts Freedom of Expression
(Washington, November 24, 2004) — A draft law to increase state control of television and radio broadcasting in Venezuela threatens to undermine the media’s freedom of expression, Human Rights Watch said today. Venezuela’s National Assembly, which has been voting article by article on the law, known as the Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, is expected to approve it today.

“This legislation severely threatens press freedom in Venezuela,” said José Miguel Vivanco, Americas director at Human Rights Watch. “Its vaguely worded restrictions and heavy penalties are a recipe for self-censorship by the press and arbitrariness by government authorities.”

Human Rights Watch is concerned that the proposed law contains loosely worded rules on incitement of breaches of public order that could penalize broadcasters’ legitimate expression of political views. If found responsible for the infractions, a television or radio station could be ordered to suspend transmissions for up to 72 hours, and have its broadcasting license revoked on a second offense.

These provisions violate international standards protecting free expression. Because of the importance of allowing a full and free public debate, the government must only impose restrictions on grounds of incitement where there is a clear relation between the speech in question and a specific criminal act.

hrw.org...

Still from 2004.


Questions and Answers about Venezuela’s
Court-Packing Law
(Printer Friendly PDF)
Also available in:

Venezuela has begun implementing a new law that allows President Chávez’s governing coalition to both pack and purge the country’s Supreme Court. This memo explains how this Organic Law of the Supreme Court (Ley Orgánica del Tribunal Supremo de Justicia) violates basic principles of international human rights law, as well as the Venezuelan Constitution. It also addresses questions and misconceptions that have arisen in response to the report that we recently issued on this subject.

What does international law say about judicial independence?

The existence of an independent judiciary is essential for democracy and the protection of human rights. Venezuela is party to several human rights treaties that require it to safeguard the independence of its judiciary—including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the American Convention on Human Rights. The United Nations General Assembly endorsed Basic Principles on the Independence of the Judiciary in 1985, which, while non-binding, reflect a high degree of international consensus on how states should guarantee the independence of their judiciaries. These include establishing security of tenure for judges, as well as methods of judicial selection that “safeguard against judicial appointments for improper motives.”[ii]

The principle of judicial independence is also a central feature of the Inter-American Democratic Charter, which the foreign ministers of Venezuela, the United States, and thirty-two other members of the Organization of American States adopted in 2001. The Charter defines the “[e]ssential elements of representative democracy” to include “access to and the exercise of power in accordance with the rule of law” and “the separation of powers and independence of the branches of government.

hrw.org...

Still from 2004


Venezuela: Judicial Independence Under Siege
(Caracas, June 17, 2004) — The Venezuelan government is undermining the independence of the country’s judiciary ahead of a presidential recall referendum that may ultimately be decided in the courts, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. President Chávez’s governing coalition has begun implementing a new court-packing law that will strip the Supreme Court of its autonomy.


The 24-page report, “Rigging the Rule of Law: Judicial Independence Under Siege in Venezuela,” also examines how the new law will make judges more vulnerable to political persecution and help ensure that legal controversies surrounding the recall referendum are resolved in Chávez’s favor.

“In the 2002 coup, Venezuela’s democratic order was attacked by some of Chávez’s opponents,” said José Miguel Vivanco, executive director of the Americas Division of Human Rights Watch. “But today the biggest threat to the country’s rule of law comes from the government itself.”

hrw.org...

Chavez controls every branch of the government, the people do not have the power to vote, Chavez can put or take anyone he wants from the Judiciary and the Supreme court of Venezuela... The votes which were just counted are only counted by those choosen by Chavez, there is no independent investigations. Yet you claim Venezuela is a free country...

[edit on 5-12-2006 by Muaddib]



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 03:54 AM
link   
Just one tiny example of Muaddib's intellectual dishonesty

There are so many... but this is just so blatant I couldn't let it pass.


Originally posted by Muaddib
During Chavez's reign the poverty has more than double from 1990 to 2000


Posting all this guff about "the numbers don't add up"... does anyone see anything suspicious about the sentence I quoted?

How about if you know that Chavez came to power in 1998? Our friend Muaddib makes it look as if that doubling in poverty happened during Chavez' reign. Oh dear me no, he was only in power for two of those years.

This is intellectually dishonest.

Can we get more accurate figures that show how the poverty figures look year by year? Well, I really can't be bothered to expend too much energy on this drivel, but I can point out one internal contradiction in this pathetic rhetoric:

you can't bribe the poor and have poverty increase at the same time.



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 04:55 AM
link   

Originally posted by sobolwolf
He did the same thing as Lula in Brasil - bribed the poor, thats all they need to do in countries where the poor vastly outnumber the rich. Just give em a monthly retainer and they are yours. This is the only reason either of them won their respective elections because the are both aholes.


You can debate this as much as you like, but in the end it all boils down to what I said before (read above).

I am all for improving the lives of the poor, but giving them handouts is not the way - providing adequate services such as health and education is. But really these kind of governments operate better when they are in control of ignorant fools so it is better for them to skimp on education.

Anyway I put all governent into one category, be it US government or Timbuctoo governent - Government = parasitic scum



new topics

top topics



 
1
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join