For everyone "claiming their grandfather is a 33 degree mason"

Regarding the previous post that there were very few (I think someone said only 33) 33rd Degree Masons in the world. I got the following from a friend of mine at The Supreme Council (House of the Temple) in Washington DC (Placed here with permission)

John,

There are only Thirty-three Active Members in the Supreme Council, 33�, Southern Jurisdiction, but several *thousand* 33d Degree Honorary Members as well. The Northern Masonic Jurisdiction has Sixty-six Active Members, and (I presume) several thousand Honorary Members also. It would not surprise me to learn that there are ten thousand Thirty-third Degree members in the United States.

One need only open a volume of the _Transactions of the Supreme Council_, for any year, to find a list (by name) of the scores of people elected to receive the Thirty-third Degree during that biennium.

Feel free to copy this letter and/or use my name in response to the question.

Fraternally,

Arturo de Hoyos, 33�, KYCH
Grand Archivist and Grand Historian,
Supreme Council, 33�, Southern Jurisdiction, U.S.A.
1733 Sixteenth Street, N.W.
Washington, DC 20009�3103

www.srmason-sj.org...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
�Vocatvs atqve non vocatvs devs aderit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Originally posted by senrakThe Northern Masonic Jurisdiction has Sixty-six Active Members, and (I presume) several thousand Honorary Members also. It would not surprise me to learn that there are ten thousand Thirty-third Degree members in the United States.

Brother John,

As a member of the Northern Jurisdiction I can confirm this. Our quota has been one 33rd per every 50 new members. In Pennsylvania, we have five 'active' members of the supreme council.

Fiat Lvx.

-SD

I read that in California it is less than 1.25% of the total number of SR Masons that are proposed each year for the honorary 33rd degree.

It very true that there is only a small amount (around 10% worldwide) are elected to the honorable degree on Supreme Rite 33rd degree. 99% of freemasons throughout the world will never see 33rd and more than likely .05% American grandpa's have not/will not ever see this. Traditionally it takes at least one year between each degree thus 33 years min. but American know how to ruin everything.

-S&C

Originally posted by AFAMfounder
It very true that there is only a small amount (around 10% worldwide) are elected to the honorable degree on Supreme Rite 33rd degree. 99% of freemasons throughout the world will never see 33rd and more than likely .05% American grandpa's have not/will not ever see this.

Maybe, but only if you include grandpas who are not Masons. If you're only counting grandpas who are Masons, the number is of course much higher.

Traditionally it takes at least one year between each degree thus 33 years min. but American know how to ruin everything.

I would certainly disagree. The Scottish Rite was founded in the United States; the first Supreme Council was created in Charleston, South Carolina in 1801. There is absolutely nothing in the traditions of the Rite that require a wait of 33 years. Indeed, Albert Pike himself went from the 4� to the 32� in about 15 minutes, when Bro. Albert Mackey communicated the degrees to him at his home in Charleston. Pike received the 33� just a couple of years later due to his work in revising the degrees.

If there is any Supreme Council in the world that requires one to wait a year between degrees, I suppose it's their right to do so, but it is certainly not tradition; especially if we consider the fact that, traditionally, most of the degrees are not even conferred at all. Many have existed on paper only, and were given to new members to study.

Fiat Lvx.



[edit on 5-9-2004 by Masonic Light]

yes when you refer to American S.R. it is done in one year but in other parts of the world i.e. Europe you must provide a lecture and proof of thorough knowledge of each degree thus the one year wait. So before you jump the gun remember that Masonry is worldwide and not just in AMERICA.

Fraternally,

-S&C

Originally posted by AFAMfounder
yes when you refer to American S.R. it is done in one year but in other parts of the world i.e. Europe you must provide a lecture and proof of thorough knowledge of each degree thus the one year wait. So before you jump the gun remember that Masonry is worldwide and not just in AMERICA.

Fraternally,

-S&C

What you write about the universality of masonry is certainly true, my brother, but as was also just noted, the AASR was CREATED in the United States in 1801, thus any changes to the process of reception and advancement through the degrees is INNOVATIVE and not tradition.

Right?

yes you are correct however I am a Traditional Lodge (blue lodge)member and I regulate myself under the European traditions, sorry for any confusion.

Fraternally,

-S&C

Originally posted by AFAMfounder
yes when you refer to American S.R. it is done in one year but in other parts of the world i.e. Europe you must provide a lecture and proof of thorough knowledge of each degree thus the one year wait. So before you jump the gun remember that Masonry is worldwide and not just in AMERICA.

That is indeed correct. My point was simply that the Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite is American in origin. Some Supreme Councils abroad require waiting periods between degrees, but this practice is an innovation rather than a traditional model based upon the Rite's history.

However, I'm not arguing in favor of "fast Masonry", and it may indeed be better for a Brother to wait between degrees, giving him opportunity for study and reflection. But this practice forms no part of the history of the Mother Council, at least not between every single degree.

Fiat Lvx.

It is an interesting feature of the masonic religion that freemasons are not allowed to kill someone who publishes information which may be their deepest secret but which the non-masonic author has acquired by dint of his own independent researches and hard work; secrets so deep in fact that the masons themselves don't even know they had them, having lost them long ago through attrition (such as when the Phoenician King Hiram Abid, architect and builder of Solomon's Temple, was murdered by the priests of the temple in order to 'sanctify' the place which meant that such secrets as he possessed and had not yet passed on to his successor died with him). William Stirling on the other hand had sworn his masonic oath and his punishment for writing and publishing 'The Canon' was to be murdered on his own doorstep. According to the police report, he had apparently accidentally slit his own throat. The report does not explain how his tongue came to be missing. Not that there are any masons in the police, of course. All very gruesome stuff and rather sad in that Stirling wrote such a patchy and confused account of the pathetic remainder of the freemasons' secrets that it reveals nothing anyway.

Here is just some of the stuff the freemasons lost, long ago, even before Ur of the Chaldees:-
www.odeion.org...

You have to appreciate the pungent irony when masons are sworn not to tell what they do not in fact know while the rest of the world is free to discuss it openly to its heart's content with whomsoever it pleases.

Of course it may well be a different matter when it comes to revealing the secrets of masonic conspiracies which have corrupted society and brought war, famine and discontent upon us all time and time again.




[edit on 27-9-2004 by ODEION]

1.) As time moves forward, so does Masonry. There are new mysteries, new secrets, new ideas and expressions that only Brothers know. Those too, might become known, but Masons aren't bothered by that, and when I'm initiated, I won't either. I of couse prefer that Masonic rituals remain behind closed doors where they justly belong, but information will get out one way or the other.

2.) Regardless of what the public knows and discusses freely, Masons swear an oath not to reveal certain things, and that oath is a promise. Masons keep their promises, and respect the sanctity of their rituals, regardless of what non-Masons think or do. Simply because the world might know about such and such rite, Masonic honour does not change.

3.) As for the wars, famine, violence of history, look to Christianity before Masonry. Where Masonry might be a pool of misconduct, Christianity is a veritable ocean of nasty behaviour in the name of the Christian god. Where at best, you can only allege Masonry's involvement in whatever unfortunate calamity, you can find clear proofs of Christian involvement, and quite often, direct responsibility. Don't simply ridicule Christianity, however, you should be critical of Masonry as well, just take care not to imply that Masonry has a monopoly on distasteful behaviour.

Christianity *is* masonic.
www.odeion.org...

It is not Christianity that is the problem, it is the people practcing it through history. Most of the crimes of Christianity are decidedly un-Masonic. Christiantiy is not the only example of well-meaning precepts perverted by faulty institutions. The examples are legion. Again, masonry has no monopoly on bad behaviour, and in fact, the crimes that can be linked conclusively and directly to Masonry are infinitesimal. The fact that it is a "secret society" so people a priori obviously won't really know either way is also flawed thinking.

I hope you have a better source than odeion.org, by the way. Peter Wakefield Sault, for example - one of the contributors to that site, whoever he is, is certainly not a historian or a bona fide scholar. He's a tech employee, and a hobbyist when it comes to "ancient history."

I don't recognize Odeion.org as a creditable source, anyway, even though it doesn't apply to this debate.

[edit on 27-9-2004 by LTD602]

Originally posted by LTD602
I don't recognize Odeion.org as a creditable source.

Well of course you wouldn't, would you? It totally undermines your belief system; everything you've been indoctrinated with and your childish fantasy of belonging to a secret society.

Originally posted by ODEION
It is an interesting feature of the masonic religion

Well, THERE is your first mistake. Masonry is NOT a religion.

... that freemasons are not allowed to kill someone who publishes information which may be their deepest secret but which the non-masonic author has acquired by dint of his own independent researches and hard work;

Uh, huh... secrets he CLAIMS to have. You see, the funny thing about secrets is that since MASONS are not talking, and only outsiders or oathbreakers ARE talking, you have to have some sense about the veracity of what you read as "the secrets".

... secrets so deep in fact that the masons themselves don't even know they had them, having lost them long ago through attrition (such as when the Phoenician King Hiram Abid, architect and builder of Solomon's Temple, was murdered by the priests of the temple in order to 'sanctify' the place which meant that such secrets as he possessed and had not yet passed on to his successor died with him).

You're, uh, kidding, right? Hiram ABIF, not Hiram Abid, was NOT a Phoenician King... he was a widows son and a man of tyre... a subject of Hiram, King of TYRE. He was not slain to sanctify anything... sorry.

William Stirling on the other hand had sworn his masonic oath and his punishment for writing and publishing 'The Canon' was to be murdered on his own doorstep. According to the police report, he had apparently accidentally slit his own throat.

Look, sometimes police are bumblers, but I find it real hard to believe that anyone wrote he slit his own throat. Do you have valid and verifiable citations for that? And to what end.. are you inferring that Masons killed him? After noting above the truth that we do not impose the penalites for violating our oaths? Which is it?

The report does not explain how his tongue came to be missing.

What report?

Not that there are any masons in the police, of course. All very gruesome stuff and rather sad in that Stirling wrote such a patchy and confused account of the pathetic remainder of the freemasons' secrets that it reveals nothing anyway.

So, you set up a straw man argument which you conveniently knock down using defamatory ad hominem attacks on masonry... how useful is that?

Here is just some of the stuff the freemasons lost, long ago, even before Ur of the Chaldees:- www.odeion.org...

You're not serious, right? This person who is not a mason claims that the real secrets of atlantis... uh, masonry, are known to HIM?

You have to appreciate the pungent irony when masons are sworn not to tell what they do not in fact know while the rest of the world is free to discuss it openly to its heart's content with whomsoever it pleases.

Actually, it is not ironic so much as a badge of honor and a mark of our willingness to keep our given words to the death, in the face of the public claiming to know the secrets... its really about being a better man by, in a very small part, actually keeping your given word, when it would be so easy NOT to...

Of course it may well be a different matter when it comes to revealing the secrets of masonic conspiracies which have corrupted society and brought war, famine and discontent upon us all time and time again.

And, of course, you will share with us, soon, the proof of these contentions, right?

Anyone can create a webpage about anything. Looks like the creators of Odeion.org have taken armchair hobbyist history to a new level. Pseudo-academia. A repository for pet theories reprocessed from History Channel(TM) documentaries and CableTV specials that fill boring Sunday afternoons.

Secret Society or not, childish fantasy or not, Masonry is comprised of around 6 million members worldwide. They come from all walks of life - young, old, rich, poor, lawyers, janitors, doctors, firemen, political officials, managers, CEOs, teachers, students, judges, royalty, mechanics etc. George Washington was a Mason. A number of the signatories of the American Constitution and Declaration were also Masons. I suppose they too, were "childish" and that the very documents that GRANT, CODIFY, AND PROTECT your right to express your opinions and theories, regardless of their veracity, are also "fantasies."

Many great figures of history, and today as well, were and are Masons. Presidents and Prime Ministers, too.

Whether Masonry has secrets or not is for the initiate to discover. Masonry does lay claim to "mysteries", however. It's in black and white on the application.

Masonry is very much a reality, and is obviously meaningful to it's members. Many of its members are also very talented, bright people.


By the way, nice avatar, Theron!



[edit on 27-9-2004 by LTD602]

My dad also was a mason, 32snd degree. Maybe things have changed since his time (he's 76) He decided he was sick of waisting money

sorry missed my whole point of even saying anything he also had said that 32snd degree was the highest rank or whatever whatnot. Sorry

Originally posted by Zzub
On friday nights, we would sometimes see what appeared to be 'ladies of negotiable affection' arriving at and leaving.

Those 'ladies' were most likely Job's daughters ore Rainbow Girls. Neither of which would be prostitutes. You should have joined the Order of Demoley an then you could have gotten some.

Originally posted by I_AM_that_I_AM

Originally posted by Zzub
On friday nights, we would sometimes see what appeared to be 'ladies of negotiable affection' arriving at and leaving.

Those 'ladies' were most likely Job's daughters ore Rainbow Girls. Neither of which would be prostitutes. You should have joined the Order of Demoley an then you could have gotten some.

THIS is how you defame masonry? By defaming your own honor or showing you have none? To defame these honest girls and more, the Demolay boys with such patter is terrible... more, its a demonstration of a lack of honor and integrity on your part by your insinutations...

Is that how you want people talking about your sister, mother or daughter?

Masonry at least teaches us to respect women, and ourselves.