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Decided it was time to buy an AK

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posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 09:54 AM
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In real life the AK can be fitted with all the gizmos and rails as the Sig, but a baseline AK costs 1/4th of the Sigs price tag. 50$ fore-stock will turn your cheap AK into a futurewarriors Useless accessory rack with x-number of rails...
Keep it simple...
in combat (or IPSC etc) it doesn't matter if the gun hits 1 or 2 MOAS... and Accurate rifles are measured in 0.X Moas...




posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 11:07 AM
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Originally posted by northwolf
In real life the AK can be fitted with all the gizmos and rails as the Sig, but a baseline AK costs 1/4th of the Sigs price tag. 50$ fore-stock will turn your cheap AK into a futurewarriors Useless accessory rack with x-number of rails...
Keep it simple...
in combat (or IPSC etc) it doesn't matter if the gun hits 1 or 2 MOAS... and Accurate rifles are measured in 0.X Moas...



Northwolf,
I believe in the KISS principle. I own several rifles capable of MOA accuracy if the shooter is up to standards. These are not however rifles I would prefer to take into certain situations..even hunting. Precision rifles tend to take precision/laboratory conditions to remain precision.
Alot of things can be said about the AK/SKS series but they definitely take a licking and keep on ticking much to thier credit. No laboratory conditions needed here. This is a huge plus.
Having removed the Bayonet from my SKS rifles as something I dont need, I would be loath to add such gizmos and more weight to make it barrel heavy once again.
The Sig looks like a fine rifle. But once again as you well stated...costs. This too is a huge plus. Throw in cheap ammunition availability and you have a sale. SOLD!!!!

THanks again Northwolf,
Keep them in the X ring,

Orangetom



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by warset
NO FAIR!

how come the americans get to buy guns when us canadians only get to keep knives!!!!!!


Because 240 years ago, our founding fathers decided that every american in good legal standing should be armed to the teeth. Live free or die baby!!



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 12:37 PM
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Hey OrangeTom! Are you sure you aren't my better looking and younger brother?


I am with you on the KISS principle. The SKS I have has a "custom" graphite, commando type stock and a 30 round clip. Definitely lighter to carry around than all that wood, but no other real "goodies". It was designed to be a "simple, bang on the ground to get the dirt out of it and shoot" type of weapon for the common communist, revolutionary, or terrorist.

It isn't really precision. It is loud as Hell for the size of the round and mine won't put three bullets in the bull, the same, on any given day at 300 feet. It, however, will lay down a field of fire that is totally scary, in a rapid fire situation, and on any given day, at that distance it will bring down a deer, or a man ... It's simple like my old Volkswagen Beetle used to be. It would always start, and when it wouldn't, you pulled the engine out, put it on newspaper in the living room, tightened it up, put it back, and start it, and drive away... Simple, easy, shoots every time.

My Auto-ordnance Model 1911, on the other hand ...



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 01:02 PM
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Originally posted by Strangerous


Hmm

...

BTW I'm a shooter, have been for years, I've never worn a footie shirt and am unlikely to want to trouble your lovely immigration staff ever again.

I'd rather go North and visit some cultured people.



Aww C'mon Strangerous! Don't be that way. I'm sure that if you were to come down here for a visit, after being up North, you'd enjoy yourself. That British vs Colonist unpleasantness happened a bit over 200 years ago. Can't we be friends?

I used to live in your wonderful country. Spent four years there, as a matter of fact. And one of my children was a Brit citizen until he was 18 and had to make a decision. He lived here with his Mother, in Montana, and it just made sense to take the American citizenship.

I explored the mysteries of Treacle, Welsh Rarebit, Shandy, and really wonderful, hand pumped Guinness. Had more than one great time in London. Jumped into and hiked out of the Highlands (not a fun thing necessarily). Played guitar with some great rock bands down in South End. Knew a large number of martial arts instructors that all got along famously when we were together. Matter of fact, I had a license through the British Karate Union.

I had a great number of friends there, got to work with some very fine MOD and SAS folk. Had a friend who owned a house that had a rock on it with an "engraved" date of 1468. I got to help him work on excavation of a really old Roman Villa on his property... Giving all the goodies to the crown, of course.


The last Summer I lived there, they had the coolest Summer on record in 340 some years. Hell! We didn't even have Summer in America that far back!


Man! That's history and culture, no matter how you cut it!

I really wouldn't let a little thing like differences in firearm philosophy piss me off to the point that I wouldn't consider visiting us down here in Baja Canada!

C'mon down ... I'll be the big ugly gray-haired fellow waiting for you in the LaCoste shirt, slacks and loafers, with a Guinness in one hand and a toasted cheese sandwich in the other.




posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 01:38 PM
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I wouldn't trade my Sig 556 for a truck load of AKs! Those rattle-trap pieces of crap might be reliable (I can assure you that Sig makes one of the most reliable weapons in the world - just ask the US military!) but they just aren't that accurate. Trust me, I know... I've owned two of them.

Some inherent benefits of the 5.56 versus the 7.62 - First of all, size and weight. The 5.56 is almost half the weight and 27% smaller than a 7.62 round making the overall weapon lighter while loaded and increasing the munitions carrying capacity of the soldier. While true that the result is less powder and perhaps less inertial energy at impact, the modern round is still devastating to it's target striking at almost 850m/s - about the same as a 7.62. Additionally, any 5.56 NATO chambered rifle is capable of also firing the m-16 standard .223 round - of which there is plenty available.

Also, with respect to overall performance - you might be interested in this information. You might also be interested in understanding that NATO is fazing out the 7.62 round in favor of the smaller, lighter, cheaper 5.56. So what does that mean? It means availability, availability and availability! In the sporting goods store and on the battlefield.

My take is that an assault rifle is not particularly good for home defense - in fact, it's downright stupid as a home defense weapon! It is a ranged weapon good only for use on ranged targets. Since I no longer hunt (And Ohio does not allow for the use of rifles in hunting), an assault weapon, for me, is basically only worthy in an end-of-civilization scenario. As a result, I want to be able to pick up ammo off the ground and use it! Good luck if your chambered in for a 7.62 round - Unless you are in China, Russia or some Eastern European block country!

For me, price was not an issue as I could afford the pricier Sig 556. But I look at this cash outlay as an investment. I wouldn't want to have to defend my country as civilian militia with any type of 7.62! In about 2 years you will be able to purchase the 556 used for pennies on the dollar and, rest assured, it will be much prefered over the AK!



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by sigung86



Aww C'mon Strangerous! Don't be that way. I'm sure that if you were to come down here for a visit, after being up North, you'd enjoy yourself. That British vs Colonist unpleasantness happened a bit over 200 years ago. Can't we be friends?


Absolutely - I've no issues with you guys in general (I have friends who live in the US, and have 'dated' a few US girls in previous years); just with that ignorant wazzock you're unfortunate enough to share a country (and a hobby with).

He posts blatant untruths and doesn't have the decency or brains to acknowledge he's wrong when it's pointed out to him.

He then goes on to make racists statements without sanction.

**** Self-censored comments about Americans stereotypes, as I know it's unfair and the sign of limited thought processes ****

I know that if I was to insult his country/countrymen as he's done mine the mods would deal with it in an even-handed manner and as he's allowed to say such things then clearly I would be allowed too, but I'm better than that.

Thanks for the invite - I'd love to share a pint or three but I doubt I'll be travelling to the US in the near future, if at all. As your supposed 'strongest ally' it's really quite galling to be treated in the same manner as a rabid Algerian jihadist when we interact with your immigration stazi, I know immigration people the world over are selected for their charmlessness but yours are extraordinary.

I'm sure, in part it's down to Hollywood's addiction to Brit bad guys, the fact that we're apparently 'so close' geographically to the middle east and they've all got the 'I caught Osama' fantasy running through their heads but I'd rather spend my ££'s on trips where I'm made to feel at least a bit welcome when I arrive.

When I travel I often hang out with Yanks, Canadians, Germans, Dutch and even the odd French person - everyone gets along fine. I really have no issue with anyone on the basis of their nationality and enjoy debating with people of different views - it's just ignorant rude blinkered people I have an issue with.

On the 'colonial' thing - yeah it was ages ago and all that's in the past, we don't mind loaning you your own country and we'll try to be nice when we take it back



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 08:28 PM
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What if there was an Assault Rifle ban here in the U.S.? Would that make it against the law to target shoot with them or just the sale/buying of them? Casue this could happen.



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 08:37 PM
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Originally posted by Full_Auto77
What if there was an Assault Rifle ban here in the U.S.? Would that make it against the law to target shoot with them or just the sale/buying of them? Casue this could happen.


It depends on the specifics of the peticular law, we'll just have to wait and read it.



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 09:23 PM
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Hey Koz'!

Don't blame you. I don't ever plan on using my SKS for anything much, except the occasional plinking off my back deck into the berm. I really got it in a trade a bunch of years back, and it sits in my closet mainly.

My interest in firearms, really, runs to the sidearm/hand gun side of things. For home defense, I have an Ithaca 12 gauge. I think it's called a Featherlite or some such. The thing I truly like about it, apart from the fact that it belonged to my late Father-in-law, is that if you keep the trigger depressed and pump it, it will fire with each pump.

Totally aside from what anyone else may think, I don't believe we will enter into an end of the world scenario in our lifetimes. But if we do, I am totally prepared. You have to understand I live in the country, and up until recently, worked for IBM. I also teach Kenpo to a lot of local students, up to and including, city, county, and state law enforcement agents. The rest of the story is funny. Remember, if you will, the great timorous beastie that was to be the Y2K debacle? Well, you probably knew, and I definitely knew that it wouldn't be the end of the world as we know it. However, a great number of friends and students didn't know that.

There was a great uproar out here in the boonies. Generators and survival supplies were the hot tickets. I had a number of students invite me to hold up in their redoubts, if and when the city slickers came out to raid, rape and pillage. Many of my friends and students left me gifts.

To cut to the bottom line ... I am still shooting off of ammunition that was given to me in those halcyon days. I have enough ammo for my SKS to hold off a major invasion, and won't run out for a very long time, at the current rate of consumption. I also have at least 1.5 scads of ammo for my Glock Model 22, My Smith .357, and my Auto-Ordnance Model 1911. It will be a number of years before I outlay any cash for ammunition.



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 01:19 AM
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The SKS's can be accurate rifles. I've got one that will shoot sub 1.5" 3 shot groups at 100 yards and sub 6" inch groups at 300 yards. Once the barrel heats up the group widen out to normal military surplus rifle accuracy of 3-4" at 100 yards. With a heavier barrel, it would probably stay more accurate for a greater number of shots.
The 30 round clip may look cool but because of the design of the SKS, it will have a negative effect on accuracy. 5-10 round magazines seem to be the best ones for accuracy. Accuracy with a 20-round magazine will be better than a 30-round mag. Why do you think the US military use 20 round magazine for the M-16?
Ammo quailty is another thing will effect accuracy as well. The new stuff coming from Wolf is of way better quality than any of the Warsaw milsurp ammo. The South African brass cased ammo is pretty good stuff. The top shelf ammo for the SKS and AK is made by Lapua. I've reloaded their cases and the cases show astonishing consistency.
A scope and trigger tune up will also improve accuracy as well. You should also remove anything that isn't securely bolt to the gun like the bayonet and cleaning rod.



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 02:59 AM
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Wow!! What a surprise. I too own a Ithica model 37 pump. It is one owned by the local constabulary and when they upgraded they sold off their Ithicas and I couldnt help but pick one up. It is a simple practical and rugged shotgun. Mine has a 20 inch barrel and yes just as you say..no sear on it..you just hold down the trigger and pump and it will fire till you stop pumping or are out of ammo. I like mine very much.

I also own one of Samuel Colts finest. The 1911 in .45 ACP. I sometimes carry this about town or my .357 revolver. I am actually more of a revolver man than an auto type. I also own a Tarus five shot revolver I use for target shooting called a Tracker in .45 ACP. This one is very accurate...ported barrel about 6 inchs in length. I enjoy very much shooting this revolver.
My Colt has been accurized a bit. Tightened up on the slide and barrel bushing. Not match grade..just tightened up. Better sights put on her than factory. She now shoots well too. Much better than out of the box. I wanted a more accurate Colt Auto without sacraficing reliability. Hence not match grade.

As to the poster speaking about the availability of 5.56 ammo. No problem. I am sitting on a sufficient amount of this as well as 7.62x 39. I also reload for both. Same with 7.62x63mm caliber. Also numerous pistol calibers, .38 caliber, .357, 30 carbine, .45ACP

Sigung86..I am out here on the Chesapeake Bay of Virginia..not far from Colonial Williamsburg and the Jamestown where the early colonists came ashore. Earlier this year some of us posted on a site here titled

How to defend yourself on a budget.

The ideas put forth there, though alot of it with guys present tended to center around firearms, was about stashing equipment and knowlege.
With hurricanes and bad weather here on the coast I have tended to store food and rotate it prior to shelf life dates. This is just my way. It was quite surprising to me to learn how many people around here never prepare for anything beyond the next sports program or brainwashing drivel on the boob tube. I have owned a generator for years now and keep it on the ready line. I just stepped up to a larger volume generator with electric start. NOw I keep them both ready to go. Refrigerated and frozen stores are a concern of mine though I keep alot of canned goods on hand.

Where you are at with harsh winter weather such is probably a good idea too. Having been out in the scrub I am sure you have experience with high technology failing you.

I am not so keen on the end of the world type scenerios but more on the hurricane scenerio and lots of lost wildlife running around like recently in New Orleans.

My mother needs refrigerated medicines..in the last hurricane I took my first generator back and forth from Mom and Pops place to mine. People were stealing generators from other peoples yards...and our hurricane was a easy one compared to New Orleans. I would have put someone down trying to steal the generator from my Mom and Dads house. I did leave my .45 Auto with Pop just in case. My dad is quite familiar with it. With two generators now I can just leave one with her and dad and chain it down.

Sorry...it just pisses me off when people dont prepare for anything and then try to parasite like that off those who do prepare. No respect here for that kind of behavior.

I have posted this before...it is a nightmare of mine to be stuck on a deserted island with about 400 survivors who dont know how to do anything but play video games and watch tv. Good Grief. That is how I figure a bad hurricane will be around here.

Thanks to all once more for thier input,
Orangetom



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 04:50 AM
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About the availability of the 7.62x39: It's the most numerous round in the world,jst if it's not that big in USA, rest of us may find very easy to obtain. If a need rises i know my way into a stash of 1 000 000 of those rounds in a matter of hours... as our army uses it. So please don't narrow your toughts to USA only..



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 08:18 AM
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I'm really enjoying this thread; it's informativeness and civility. Thank you all!

Just to address a few items... with respect to availabililty of 7.62 ammo - I stated that globally it is readily available. You will find surplus 7.62 ammo literally littered throughout Asia, Russia, the Middle East and most of Eastern Europe. My comment should have been directed ONLY to my American friends as 7.62 ammo is much more difficult to come by in both quatity and quality. What I mean is that if you find quality 7.62 ammo, you will be limited on quantity and vice versa. NATO is moving to the 5.56 as it's new standard for several reasons, but most notably is the cost and the weight factor with minimal sacrifice on performance. Also, as mentioned before any weapon chambered for either 5.56 or .223 will fire either round, widening the availability of munitions. Finally, quality built AK's and SKS' will fire incredibly accurate rounds! However, you quickly move out of the $200 to $300 price range cited by others as the reason to purchase an AK. AK's in that range are surplus weapons, well more than "Slightly used" and are "loose" to say the least. As I stated previously, MY preference is the SigArms 556. It's pricey but fits all of MY reasons for owning an assault rifle.

Moving on - for those interested in home defense, there are a few threads on that already so I won't derail this thread with alot of talk on the matter. I will simply point out that I use a Mossberg 590A-mil 12 guage and a SigArms P229 .40S&W (Which also doubles as my CCW). For fun I plink with a Ruger Mini-14 (.223), a Ruger 7mm Mauser remake (Complete redub of WWII German Sniper Rifle! - bolt action), for hunting (which I rarely do anymore) I have a Binelli R1 30-06 and an old Ruger Model 99/44 Deerfield and a Remington 870 12 Guage. I also have the SigArms 556, an old S&W 10mm and a Ruger KP89 9mm Luger. I also have an old unmodified British .303 from WWII (Haven't fired it in ages!). I also have 2 old .22s - A Marlin and a Remington.

Hopefully this clears up my perspective on the matter - for those of you interested.



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by kraggen
i just wanna tell you that Doc holidays is hot!
and that tombstone is one of my favorite movie!

i know its off the subject but nice picture greamreaper
i hope you dont deserve your name


Dont you just love irony. Kraggen is full of piss and vineger over how stupid it is to own guns and all gun ownwers are horrible killers, yet his avatar is is a video game about sneaking around and killing people and his favorite movie is about a famous gun fight. You just have to love uneducated hypocrites. Which this thread is full of from both sides.

Gun ownership is my RIGHT as a human being. If I misuse that RIGHT then I should be dealt with accordingly.

To all the viewers out there who cannot understand the joy of shooting thats ok I cannot understand the fasination with playing video games and there is nothing you can say to convince me that it is as fun as you say it is.

To all the veiwers out there that cant wait to get a gun because it is cool. You are not ready for gun ownership. Ownership is a responsabilty to your fellow man. It is your right to own one but it is also your responsabilty to society to use it accordingly.

To all who think the AK is a peice of crap. Dont buy one.

To the fellow that started this thread. Great choice, if this is your first firearm get some training before using it. And yes milled recivers are better than stamped they also cost more. The moral is you get what you pay for and you pay for what you can afford.

To orangetom and sigung and northwolf, HOOYAH. Keep up the GREAT work.


[edit on 6-12-2006 by ultralo1]



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 10:52 AM
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Originally posted by ultralo1

To all the veiwers out there that cant wait to get a gun because it is cool. You are not ready for gun ownership. Ownership is a responsabilty to your fellow man. It is your right to own one but it is also your responsabilty to society to use it accordingly.



Here Here ..I salute you ...well said olde man. Needs to be said and reinforced in many of us. I could not have said it better.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 11:58 AM
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See here for why guns are important to defend liberty.



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 02:40 PM
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I personally want a gun for
A. Home Defense
B. Hunting
C. target shooting because its alot of fun and takes practice.

Im going to start with a shotgun for sure though.(I can hunt with it in NJ, which is what I really want to start doing.)



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by crgintx
Why do you think the US military use 20 round magazine for the M-16?


They don’t. In all my years in the military, the only 20 round mag that I ever used was my own personal mag I carried to Iraq (we were issued 6 but with one in the mag well that leaves an empty spot in the mag pouch, and the gun store was sold out of 30s). The Army uses 30 round mags because they are just as accurate as 20 round mags.

To everyone discussing the pros and cons of the 7.62x39 5.56x45 allow me to set you strait. They are both crap.

While accuracy is without a doubt better on the 5.56 side in general and the AR series in particular, it does not matter. Sure, it looks nicer on a target, but in real world fighting we are shooting at center of mass. If I shoot you twice in the chest will you care if my rounds are 1 or 2 inches apart? I didn’t think so.

Also, on the accuracy side, when someone is flinging rounds your way you have little time to target practice. Slow aimed shots are the rule, however the phrase aimed takes on a whole different meaning on the battle field. In close quarters combat (the only type any American in Iraq or on American soil is likely to see) aiming means pointing your forward supporting hand like a pistol (sorta) and pointing your index finger at the target. If the target is less than 50 meters and you try to get a good sight picture, you just may die for your efforts.

The AR and AK should be considered equal ground accuracy wise, because they can both hit a man sized target out to 300 meters, after which neither weapon system or the rounds they shoot are powerful enough to matter.

If it is accuracy you really want go big. Real big, like 50 cal, and make sure to keep your distance from the guys doing the real fighting.

Now, accuracy aside, both rounds are also crap because they are under powered. I have shot people with 5.56 and with 7.62x51 as well as seen people shot with 7.62x39, and I can tell you that never again would I carry the 5.56 or the 7.62x39 into combat. The 5.56 normally takes a few VERY well placed rounds to stop a fight. The problem is that while the 5.56 is designed to fragment and therefore cause multiple wound channels, it does not generally fragment until it has traveled over 15 centimeters into a healthy body, and even more in a malnutritioned or dehydrated body. Also, it will only fragment about 70% of the time with common loads and even less with military steel core penetrators. What this means is that while a single wound from a 5.56 IS likely to kill a person within the next 3 to 72 hours, it IS NOT likely to take a person out of the fight on impact.

The 7.62x39, on the other hand, does not fragment (generally.) It tumbles through the body, causing a drastically larger wound channel. Also, it begins its tumble within 3 to 5 centimeters. This makes it a much more reliable killer than the 5.56, especially in parts of the world where people tend to be skinny

Also of note is that neither round will defeat modern level 4 body armor, and in most loads will not defeat level 3 either.

So considering that the accuracy difference does not matter and both rounds are underpowered, what we are left with is reliability. Take it from someone who has carried the AR in combat that it is not at all reliable in field conditions. As I found out with my M16-A3, star chamber+carbon+dust=about 2 mags before its done and as I found out with my M-4, plastics stocks break and then stab your shoulder. Wanna know what my 240B taught me? Bigger really IS better.

What is required to kill with reliability is a larger caliber. 7.62x51 or 30-06 are both great choices.

All that said, the AK is the superior weapon on the battle field and the AR is the superior weapon for competition.



posted on Dec, 6 2006 @ 04:53 PM
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To all ... Even McPhisto (God Love 'im)... This has been one of the most enjoyable threads I've participated in here on ATS in many a moon. Thanks to all. I kind of feel like I've made new friends.


Cavscout... Yeah... Your right on all counts. I, hearken back to the ancient of days, the old Gen 1 M16. It couldn't wait to misfire, foul up or otherwise piss off it's carrier. The AK just made more sense way back then. Like I said, if I had it to do all over again, and could make a choice, I would have opted for the M14. Bigger is better.... I knew a flight surgeon in 'Nam, who carried a Ruger Super Blackhawk.




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