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Is Stealth inferior to new Advanced SAM's and IRST?

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posted on Dec, 4 2006 @ 07:20 AM
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Originally posted by tomcat ha
If there are only rumors that they have one you must assume that they have.


I'm sorry I don't quite follow, rumors do not equate to actual fact. Indeed I will concede that there is reason to believe those rumors are based on Iran's documented desire to purchase the S-300. However as of yet there is no substantial proof that it has operational systems, those are two very separate issues.


Originally posted by tomcat ha
Personally i think the development time of the F22 simply is too long. 25 years since the first plans where made up. That leaves plenty of time for major innovations in dectection to destroy the F22's advantage.


In the foreseeable future the F-22, or VLO technology in general for that matter will never be obsolete, it's effectiveness may be reduced somewhat but it will still be a hell of a lot better than a conventional designs. Regardless of how long it took the F-22 to go from conception to design even the most sophisticated SAM systems and integrated air defense network are not capable of entirely destroying the advantage LO tech offers. If used properly and in conjunction with other elements/support systems they will still be very much effective.




posted on Dec, 4 2006 @ 10:06 AM
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If one assumes that the tactics would involve staying outside the threat radius, and using various SEAD assets(I believe that the plan is to incorporate advanced UCAVs for this mission in the future, and long range stand off weapons), it still offers a significant advantage in operational freedom over non stealth designs. That still doesn't take into account the unknown active/passive ECM capabilities that the F22/F35 have. Another thing to consider is that the problem with threat systems engaging though is that while the search radars may be able to detect stealth, the targeting radars are going to have issues locking on, and the F22 has a low IR footprint too. When you add the altitude and speed at which its flying, that presents another problem for a would be threat.



posted on Dec, 4 2006 @ 08:14 PM
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The Iran S-300 bit comes up here too!!

Really I dont think they have them, and there has been no news report to confirm the same too. Unless they'er hiding them inside those underground nuclear facilities!!



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 11:12 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
In the foreseeable future the F-22, or VLO technology in general for that matter will never be obsolete, it's effectiveness may be reduced somewhat but it will still be a hell of a lot better than a conventional designs. Regardless of how long it took the F-22 to go from conception to design even the most sophisticated SAM systems and integrated air defense network are not capable of entirely destroying the advantage LO tech offers. If used properly and in conjunction with other elements/support systems they will still be very much effective.


That is what is assumed. That might be the case but 25 years is a long time so i have my doubts. Ofcourse no system will completely destroy the advantage of stealth. However does it give a enough of a advantage in exchange for the increased costs and development time?



posted on Dec, 5 2006 @ 01:06 PM
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If having a wider freedom of movement is necessary, than I'd say yes in terms of the costs. With the lethality of modern SAMs and A2A, any advantage one can get is important. Obviously it's unaffordable to make everything stealthy, but if you can make enough of your force stealthy to take out the threat, then the non stealth platforms will have freedom of movement. If your adversary is using LO technology and highly lethal weapons, you can't afford not to design that feature into your aircraft.



posted on Dec, 17 2006 @ 12:05 PM
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Originally posted by Shadowraven

Another source:
www.fas.org...

How to locate an F-22:
www.f22totalairwar.de...


This is what i have from past research ...


The S-400 system is intended to engage current and future air threats such as tactical and strategic aircraft, Tomahawk cruise missiles and other type missiles, including precision-guided ones, as well as AWACS aircraft, at ranges of up to 400 km. It can also detect stealth aircraft and other targets at all altitudes of their combat employment and at maximum ranges.

warfare.ru...



On March 27, 1999, the 3rd Battalion of the 250th Missile Brigade under the command of Colonel Zoltán Dani, equipped with the Isayev S-125 'Neva-M' (NATO designation SA-3 'Goa'), downed an American F-117A "Stealth Fighter" with a Neva-M missile. According to Wesley Clark and other NATO generals, Yugoslav air defenses found that they could detect F-117s with their "obsolete" Soviet radars operating on long wavelengths. This, combined with the loss of stealth when the jets got wet or opened their bomb bays, made them visible on radar screens. The pilot survived and was later rescued by NATO forces.

A number of Yugoslav MiGs were destroyed on the ground at the Batajnica Airbase and other Yugoslav bases.

www.answers.com...



The Antey-2500 is designed to combat aircraft and tactical missiles, including ballistic missiles with a launch range of up to 2,500 kilometers. The Antey-2500 mobile complex, developed on the basis of the well-known S-300V [SA-12] air defense complex, is a new-generation system, capable of autonomous combat action. It can simultaneously engage 24 aerodynamic targets, including stealth targets, or 16 ballistic targets with a RCS of up to 0.02 meters, flying at speeds of up to 4,500 m/s. Improved characteristics of the radar information facilities and optimization of radar signal processing technics make it possible to combat high-speed ballistic targets with a small radar cross section. Antey-2500 can effectively protect an area of up to 2,500 sq. km and engage targets at altitudes of 25 to 40,000 m.

www.globalsecurity.org...



In 1999 trials began at the test range of a new surface-to-air missile, the S-400 Triumf. This fourth generation system used S-300 missiles, but possessed capabilities against low RCS stealth aircraft, small cruise missiles, and future low-RCS re-entry vehicles. The electronics were on a completely new technical basis and used new solutions to the detection, tracking, and guidance problems. The system actually represented a bigger step from third generation systems (S-300PMU, S-300PMU-1, S-300PMU-2) than third generation systems represented to first generation systems.

www.astronautix.com...



Russia has developed a new anti-aircraft defense system capable of hitting targets up to 250 miles away and engaging stealth aircraft, according to a report.

The journal Military Parade, a respected source on the Russian military, provided details of the new S-400 system of missiles and radar, saying it could hit advanced warplanes and cruise missiles. It can also engage and shoot down stealth aircraft, built to avoid normal radar detection, the report said.

The system, named Triumph, is also capable of hitting radar reconnaissance airplanes at extended range, including the AWACS airborne command system used by the United States and NATO, the journal said.

www.gbad.org...



Conversely, stealthy—and very fast—aircraft such as the F/A-22 will be able to penetrate defenses and attack their targets before the enemy has time to defend himself or escape.
Even after they were overtaken long ago by events, old notions of air warfare persist, Lewis continued. He noted that, in Vietnam, the thinking was that a pilot who actually saw a SAM fired at him could probably outmaneuver it.

That’s not true anymore, Lewis said, noting that modern SAMs are faster, longer ranged, and dramatically more agile than their 1970s-era forebears.
In Iraq, Lewis noted, well-known examples of fratricide saw Navy and British fighters inadvertently targeted by the Army Patriot system. “The pilots knew what was going on, and they did everything they could to defend themselves.” Lewis said. “They still got shot down.”

The Patriot is comparable to the S-400 system now being sold by Russia, with double the range. A single S-400 battalion—eight launchers and 32 missiles—can be bought for $1 billion, Lewis said. This threat would pose an extremely difficult challenge for the fourth generation fighters that make up most of today’s Air Force.

www.afa.org...



The S-300 grouping features several different types of missiles built to strike at everything from low-flying drones and stealth cruise missiles to high-altitude reconnaissance airplanes and distant sensor platforms. Arrival of these systems in the arsenals of military foes will greatly complicate US operations, which continue to depend heavily on nonstealthy aircraft and will for years to come.

Gen. Richard E. Hawley, the now-retired former commander of USAF's Air Combat Command, told an AFA symposium in February that these new SAMs, if deployed in numbers large enough to create overlapping zones of engagement, would figuratively present "a brick wall" to nonstealthy fighters,

www.afa.org...



Stealth, counter-stealth. A critical technology for current and future U.S. weapons systems, the PLA is very interested in both exploiting and countering stealth. At the 1998 Zhuhai Air Show the PRC company Seek-Optics marketed stealth coating and design technology. At the same show it also marketed the “J-231” radar, advertised as having “high anti-stealth capability.” China has revealed the design of a new “F-16” frigate, intended for export that uses extensive stealth shaping. The Pentagon report on the PLA released in June notes China “reportedly is developing new fighter aircraft which will incorporate LO [Low Observable] technology."

www.fas.org...


I few more but that would take time to find.


Stellar



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