Eyewitnesses to Pre-collapse sub basement explosions

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by CameronFox
He asked that I post some info about the liars in the truth movment and I did.

You've shown that they've lied? Or that Alex Jones isn't afraid to harrass people of opinions he doesn't agree with?

Could this be considered a half truth or lie itself? Something CameronFox accusses others of doing? No offense Cameron but you did what you accussed Jones of doing.

As far as the Port Authority Officer, who says that the explosion he heard was the plane? What floor was he on? What floor was Rodriguez on? Real questions.

The Port Authority Officer was at the police station in the sub basement level...thats all i know. I will try to find out what level it was on.

As far as the 1/2 lies and truths.... 1/2 truths ..whatever ... If you are not being 100% honest ....I guess you are lying.
IF you are accusing someone of somthing and using FALSE information to fit your agenda.. that is a lie.

Jones, Avery, etc.... have all LIED about the Silverstein quote and twisted it to fit their agenda.

Jones was harassing Marines that were having breakfast!!! Thats helping who?? These are the REAL men that protect us.

Tell me ANYTHING of what I posted about anyone in my pervious post that WASNT honest.

I will be MORE than happy to back up my accusations.

silverstien said what he said.
there were no firefighters to 'pull' because they 'pulled' them at 3:30.
his sentence implies cause and effect, 'decide to pull' >>> 'then we watched them collapse'.

that is no lie. it is a verbatim quote.

interpret it how YOU like, but please stop calling others 'liars' because they take it at face value. it makes YOU look bad.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by billybob]

Cameron,

I wasn't trying to call you a liar. Just pointing out that sometimes all of us exagerate. That doesn't give anybody the right to make up stuff and misquote and etc (not you Cameron..both sides). Like you said. I wouldn't be able to find a post where you have lied because I haven't gotten that feeling from you and so far I haven't seen you lie about anything.

I'd like to know the levels that Rodriguez and this officer were on so we can compare that to where the basement explosion was.

Originally posted by billybob
silverstien said what he said.
there were no firefighters to 'pull' because they 'pulled' them at 3:30.
his sentence implys cause and effect, 'decide to pull' >>> 'then we watched them collapse'.

that is no lie. it is a verbatim quote.

interpret it how YOU like.

Billybob,

You need to know exactly what was going on. Silverstein didnt make the decision to pull them. He said THEY decided to pull them. THEY meaning the FDNY. More specifically Daniel Nigro. Who wasi n charge at the time. HE was on the phone with Silverstein. Larry Silverstien was NOT at ground Zero. He was at home with his wife. When he said WE watched... he was talkign about his wife.

His EXACT Quote "...and I said We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it."

"and they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."

Billybob, do you think Larry Silverstien had the FDNY at his beck and call?
The FDNY officers at approx. 2:30 decided to completely abandon WTC7 and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building. Do you know that that HAULTED the search and rescue at the WTC6 and the rubble pilie of WTC1. I believe that there were some firefighters still hitting the building from some distance.....At around 5:20 some three hours after WTC7 was abaondoned the building experienced catastrophic failure and collapse.

"The biggest decision we had tro make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severly damaged wtc7 building. A number of fire officers and companies assesed the damage to the building. The apprasials indicated that the building's integrity was in serious doubt. - Chief of operations Daniel Nigro in an interview with Fire Engineering Magazine 10/2002

]

[edit on 1-12-2006 by CameronFox]

Originally posted by Griff
Cameron,

I wasn't trying to call you a liar. Just pointing out that sometimes all of us exagerate. That doesn't give anybody the right to make up stuff and misquote and etc (not you Cameron..both sides). Like you said. I wouldn't be able to find a post where you have lied because I haven't gotten that feeling from you and so far I haven't seen you lie about anything.

I'd like to know the levels that Rodriguez and this officer were on so we can compare that to where the basement explosion was.

I agree....I try my best only to offer what I have read in my research. I dont know what floor the K9 officer was on in the basement. I will try to find out where in the basement he was.

Thanks Griff

Originally posted by Griff
As far as the Port Authority Officer, who says that the explosion he heard was the plane?

The the REAL question.

Rodriguez said the plane impact itself was clearly from above, and caused oscillations and was minor to the first explosion.

Jones, Avery, etc.... have all LIED about the Silverstein quote and twisted it to fit their agenda.

I don't push the Silverstein quote, not because I don't think he was admitting something, but because I think it's a hopeless argument to press. That doesn't make those people liars, that they refer to that quote as evidence. They simply have a different opinion than you do.

Brsbray...

I am not posting my opinion here. They are on Video as using a mis-quote.. Even AFTER they were corrected they STILL continue to push it. Silverstein NEVER said that he decided to pull it. He said THEY decided to.

The ONLY reason why I keep bringgin it up is that someone here is ALWAYS using it as fuel.

Originally posted by notsosmart

Originally posted by CameronFox

Originally posted by notsosmart
CameronFox said, "Hey NotSo... There are lots of 1/2 truths and lies in the so called 'Truth Movement'"

And the other side always tells the truth?

Everyone sees evidence and then interprets it the way they see it. But, I do know this: There were explosives planted or there were no explosives planted, but not both explosives planted, and no explosives planted in the same sense and at same time. It is either, or, but not both. That would lead to contradictions.

It is harder for me to believe a fireball made its way, all the way down, to sub basements 4 and 6 destroying so much. The flames fueled by airplane fuel shot outwards as the pics and videos show as the planes hit the building. I don't want to believe there was a conspiracy to take the building down with so many people in it either. But, then again, people are capable of such atrocities.

Also I thought William Rodriguez heard and felt explosions below him (referring to P2 and P3) just prior to the one above. If it was a fireball, how did he hear and feel explosions below first then above him?

Notsosmart,

I will be the first one to tell you the there should be a REAL investigation into 911. Are you think I am "siding" with the government your wrong. I would think my avatar proves that. I am a democrat...pretty much on the liberal side. YES both sides LIE. The Truth Movement leaders are often caught in lies and 1/2 truths that they make to fit their agenda. I am not picking on anyone in this site. ITs more like the 3 idiots that made Loose Change and Dr. Jones. Notsosmart...Dr. Jones is the EX professor from BYU. NONE of his writing have been peer reviewed.

Also of you look into Dr. Jones.... he wrote a paper saying that he had PROOF that Jesus was in the united states. I will try to find it for you an post it.

All I'm saying is research BOTH sides. THEN draw your own conclusion.

Thanks

Yeah, I would like to see that article.

And in regard to both sides lying at some points in their argument, that tends to be the case to exaggerate their points. An open person will investigate both sides and pull the facts out of the "lying heap" of rubble and paste them together and believe the most likely scenario.

It appears to me -- so far -- the side of the argument that believes it was just the hijacked planes that took down the buildings -- base of belief is, "why would someone go to that length to bring down the buildings". So, it is hard for these people to see some opposing evidence, and they must do what it takes to keep their foundation of belief intact.

But, that can work for the other side as well. They see some strong evidence to believe that the buildings needed more help then a plane and a fire. Now they have a foundation of belief and they build on it with truths, half truths, and lies (whether they know it or not).

911 Mysteries Part 1 Demolitions is very convincing even if it does not contain 100% truths. So, my purpose to come to this site and see if some one can be just as convincing for the other side. So, far the evidences in the Mysteries DVD appear more convincing then just planes and fire taking the buildings down.

I want to come to this topic like a juror without bias'.

When people can't prove a public figure is wrong, they turn to character assination. Who cares about Dr. Jones' religious views. Facts are facts. Melting points are melting points...free-fall speed is set in stone.

Sure, he might have wild theories about his religion--but what Mormon dosen't?

Originally posted by CameronFox
Gila....

I am trying to show that they LIE!

Les Jamieson Leader of a Major 911 "TRUTH" movement
a. Lies and Misquotes the Silverstein Quote
b. Lies about the condition of WTC 7
c. Claims FDNY was in on it!

Alex Jones, radio Host,911 Truth Leader..website Prison Planet
a. Said Silverstien ADMITS and decides to "pull" WTC7 on the day of attack
b. Claims to have called Silversteins office on several occasions, said Silverstein never issues a retraction for his comments. (Because he never said anything WRONG!)
c. Claims that moments before the WTC7 collapse, pictures show small office fires on only 2 floors.
d. Firefighters were told to move away from the building monments before the collaspe.
e. Claims that Silverstein profited 1/2 a billlion dollars in insurance.

Steven Jones,
a. Used diseptive photos
b. uses a concrete block to prove his theory
c. Misrepresents the condition of WTC7
d. Misrepresents the EPA report
e. Was REMOVED from his teachin postition at BYU

Loose Change Creators..

Watch the video...its FILLED with garbage.

I have links to all the above and if you would like i will post the links.




[edit on 1-12-2006 by CameronFox]

Having talked to Les many times on the telephone and at Ground Zero, I respect him for what he and the movement in New York have done. If you could please show me where he lies, misquotes Silverstein, and says "FDNY was IN on it" in those direct terms, I'd appreciate it.

There is a difference between debunking conspiracy theorists and personally attacking them. Grow up.

Originally posted by TruthSeekerMP

Originally posted by CameronFox
Gila....

I am trying to show that they LIE!

Les Jamieson Leader of a Major 911 "TRUTH" movement
a. Lies and Misquotes the Silverstein Quote
b. Lies about the condition of WTC 7
c. Claims FDNY was in on it!

Alex Jones, radio Host,911 Truth Leader..website Prison Planet
a. Said Silverstien ADMITS and decides to "pull" WTC7 on the day of attack
b. Claims to have called Silversteins office on several occasions, said Silverstein never issues a retraction for his comments. (Because he never said anything WRONG!)
c. Claims that moments before the WTC7 collapse, pictures show small office fires on only 2 floors.
d. Firefighters were told to move away from the building monments before the collaspe.
e. Claims that Silverstein profited 1/2 a billlion dollars in insurance.

Steven Jones,
a. Used diseptive photos
b. uses a concrete block to prove his theory
c. Misrepresents the condition of WTC7
d. Misrepresents the EPA report
e. Was REMOVED from his teachin postition at BYU

Loose Change Creators..

Watch the video...its FILLED with garbage.

I have links to all the above and if you would like i will post the links.




[edit on 1-12-2006 by CameronFox]

Having talked to Les many times on the telephone and at Ground Zero, I respect him for what he and the movement in New York have done. If you could please show me where he lies, misquotes Silverstein, and says "FDNY was IN on it" in those direct terms, I'd appreciate it.

There is a difference between debunking conspiracy theorists and personally attacking them. Grow up.

First of all, QUOTING someone is NOT attacking them.

At Ground Zero on 9/11/06 Mr. Jamieson was there and debated with a gentleman named Mark Roberts.

Les Jamieson: People were pulled out at 11:30 werent they?

Mark Roberts: No, sir they werent. As you know- becasue im sure you have read the quotes- it started about 2:30, the pull out. Beforehand they were trying to rescue their people who were under the rubble here.

Jamieson: I have 11:30 here. So even if it is 2:30 why are they eaying to pull at 5:20?

Roberts: When did the coversation with Silverstien happen? Hours beforehand.

Jamieson: No.

Roberts: Yes Sir, You're saying Chief Daniel Nigro is lying? Your saying the fire department is lying?

Jamieson: Silverstien is lying maybe. Could that be?

Roberts: About what? His story corroberates perfectly with what the Fire Department says.

Jamieson: 'Cause he says"We agreed to pull the building, then we watched it collapse."

(Ok...note here.. Les Jamieson has been the leader of a 911 truth organization that he claims he has been doing research since 2001. He was also present when another 911 Truther was asked to read the EXACT quote only 30 seconds prior to his conversation with Mr. Roberts. The truther read.. "thats when THEY decided to pull.)

Mr. Roberts: No, sir he says "They made the decision to pull". Whos "they?" He is on the phone with the fire department.

Jamieson: Right

Mr. Roberts: So you are saying that the firedepartment is lyingwhen they say they made the decision?

Jamieson: How does the foredepartment have the ability to pull?

Mr. Roberts: to Pull.. to pull their men out. (roberts was holding quotes from firemen there and had 15 quotes where firemen used the term PULL meaning pull the men from their building.) and said so to Jamieson

Anyway this debate went on with an interruption from another truther that was present. I believe this was videoed from the loose change guys. Write to them and request a copy. IF i can find it i will post it.

Apparently FEMA must have it all wrong, eh?

From FEMA...
5.6 Potential Collapse Mechanism

5.6.1 Probable Collapse Initiation Events

WTC 7 collapsed approximately 7 hours after the collapse of WTC 1. Preliminary indications were that, due to lack of water, no manual firefighting actions were taken by FDNY.

But I mean, hey, FEMA can't be wrong because they're the government and the government never lies to us at all right?

How about this idea:

The impact of the planes hitting the towers and exploding (which apparantly caused the towers to actually sway more than a couple of feet) reverberated through the building and exploded the boiler in the basement.
This could have happened via some sort of pressure wave through the piping or simply because the serious vibration of the impact broke something loose on the boiler and caused it to malfuction and explode.

I hate hearing about how so-and-so (i.e. some janitor who knows about mopping and not explosives) claims he heard an explosion so that must mean there was a bomb. How many times have you heard people claim that something in every day life sounded like, or looked like, a bomb or a missle or whatever...even though they have no idea what a bomb or missile sounds or looks like?
Christ, in general sports play-by-play they constantly refer to the physical characteristics of atheletes in military terminology...that doesn't mean the leftfielder for the Tigers actually has a howitzer attached to his shoulder.
Most people are unaccustomed to even the sound of gunfire and assume that it really must sound like the wicked crack you hear in the movies...when, in reality, it's generally more of tinny-sounding snap unless you're using a very large calibre machine gun.
Unless someone took a picture of a bomb strapped to the pillar of the WTC substructure then there was no bomb.
In my mind, the demolition theory is lame.


[edit on 1-12-2006 by thatguyoverthere]

More from FEMA's report...
At approximately, 2:30 p.m., FDNY officers decided to completely abandon WTC 7, and the final order was given to evacuate the site around the building. 395, 396 The order terminated the ongoing rescue operations at WTC 6 and on the rubble pile of WTC 1. Firefighters and other emergency responders were withdrawn from the WTC 7 area, and the building continued to burn. At approximately 5:20 p.m., some three hours after WTC 7 was abandoned the building experienced a catastrophic failure and collapsed.

Now FEMA says that at 2:30, WTC7 was abandoned... but every "Debunking" website I've seen says that it happened at 4:30... when Chief Daniel Nigro (who is an awesome man and a REAL hero, to say the least, for the amount of discipline he had that day with his own men) says...

"The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged building [WTC Building 7]. A number of fire offices and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building's integrity was in serious doubt."

Now, I see that quote and all... but where at all in that quote does it say an exact time? Enlighten me.

Originally posted by thatguyoverthere
The impact of the planes hitting the towers and exploding (which apparantly caused the towers to actually sway more than a couple of feet) reverberated through the building and exploded the boiler in the basement.
This could have happened via some sort of pressure wave through the piping or simply because the serious vibration of the impact broke something loose on the boiler and caused it to malfuction and explode.

Would you care to elaborate on the science behind this, or are you just throwing crap on the wall and seeing how well it sticks?

Unless someone took a picture of a bomb strapped to the pillar of the WTC substructure then there was no bomb.

Do you have a picture of the exploding boiler?

So no one has any positive evidence for a bomb?

I have listed positive evidence for a fireball, and why I think it's the most likely explanation.


Now, without disussing whether or not the fireball could reach the basements, please present all the positive evidence for the use of pre planted bombs.


If your theory was sound it wouldn't matter if the fireball made it there or not.

So please, lay out your evidence for a bomb.

Disproving a fireball does not make it automatically a bomb.

You guys got nothing?


What did someone say about throwing crap around and seeing if it sticks, that about sums up the bombs in the basement theory quite well.

As far as Rodgriguez is concerned, it really doesn't matter if he was lying or not, since apparently he was told after the fact what the timeline was by some mystery person.

This stuff is on so many threads here I'll just quote myself from a different thread.

This is the main peice of evidence that explosions happened before plane impact.

Just seconds later there was another explosion way above which made the building oscillate momentarily. This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the Tower at about the 90th floor. Upon hearing about the plane, he immediately thought of the people up in the restaurant. Then there were other explosions just above B1 and individuals started heading for the loading dock to escape the explosion’s resulting rampant fire. When asked later about those first explosions he said: "I would know if an explosion was from the bottom or the top of the building." He heard explosions both before and after the plane hit the Tower.

From one guy in the basement, who peiced together the timeframe after the fact.

This, he was later told, was a plane hitting the Tower at about the 90th floor.

Who told him this? Did anyone tell him the first explosion was the impact?

Not exactly rock solid here folks.

And what about the twenty two other people with him? Why have they not come forward?

www.studyof911.com...

There were an additional twenty-two people on B2 sub-basement who also felt and heard that first explosion.

Or was it fourteen?

who was crowded together with fourteen other people in the office including Anthony Saltamachia

Is it not possible that the first thing they felt was the plane impact, and the other explosions were caused by the plane impact?

Hello bsbray and CameronFox:

Thanks for responding again guys.

bsbray, thanks for that link to the evidence against a fireball theory. Good stuff and quite convincing.

CameronFox:

You said:

NotsoSmart... I have read the stories several times. Some of his claims are a little far fetched..and times do not add up.

Can you show me where "times" do not add up. What stands out for me is that he heard explosions below him first, then above. You make claims that "his claims are a little far fetched. But, you didn't provide evidence that his claims are a little far fetched. Can you provide the evidence. Below is a quote I took from bsbray's site/link.

Rodriguez said,

Rodriguez: I worked in the building for 20 years. I was the person in charge of all the stairwells in the building. I had the only master key that opened all the doors in the building, and I went floor by floor opening the doors.
On 9/11, on 8:46, I was at the basement of the North Tower, the first tower to be impacted, the second one to fall. While I was there, a second or two before the plane hit, there was a huge explosion on the sub-level B2 to sub-level B3.

Charles: So there was an explosion from below you?

Rodriguez: Correct. And that was, you know, a second or two before the impact of the plane.

Charles: But it was clear and it was distinct that the explosion was before the plane hit the top of the building?

Rodriguez: Oh, yes, definitely, definitely. As a matter of fact, it was so hard that I thought it was an electrical generator that just blew up on the sublevels, because the support of the building, the electrical pumps and generators, was located by the mechanical room on that floor.

And when I went to verbalize it, we heard the impact of the plane, very far away, coming from the top. So there was a big difference of something coming from the top and something coming from the basement. I mean I worked there for 20 years, I could tell the difference of one thing coming from each side.

And at that moment a person comes running into the office saying, “Explosion, explosion!”, with his hands extended, all his skin was off from under his armpits like he was a piece of cloth, and was hanging off both hands. It was his actual skin.

CameronFox said,

What I find Ironic is that there is a police station in the basment in the North Tower. (Where Mr. Rodriguez was) Not one police officer has claimed to hear explosions prior to the initial impact of the aircraft. The CT's cling to this mans story because its the only so called witness to an explosion prior to the impact.

Do you believe that police officers not making any claim negates Rodriguez's claim? Do you have evidence the police were in the basement of the time of explosion?

And how do you explain Construction worker Phillip Morelli's testimony that he witnessed two basement level "impacts" in same building sub-basements (the first one knocked him to the floor)? What do you think of his overall testimony?

Thanks for your time CameronFox

Good night guys

Originally posted by billybob
how's a bomb-sniffing dog supposed to find bombs when he is locked in a kennel?
can a bomb=sniffing dog smell the entire contents of the tower all with one whiff?

there were (suspiciously handy)white vans taking out gold from underneath the towers. one of them could have been loaded with suitcase nukes and death rays from outerspace for all we know.

Very good point as there was billions of dollars in gold bullion in the basement belonging to a well known Canadian bank and it was never seen again??

Where did it go?

Was this part of the reason for 911 to steal billions of dollars in pure gold in the confusion that ensued?

Oh it gets better folks because I know a lot more...

Originally posted by CameronFox
His EXACT Quote "...and I said We've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is pull it."

"and they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."

[edit on 1-12-2006 by CameronFox]

Sounds like Lucky Larry gave the order to me? He suggested it and then they did it... of course he couldn't say it that way.

Yes he did have the NYFD in his back pocket.

I was talking to a friends father. He thinks that if there were extreme explosives to weaken the basement, then there wouldn't have been many survivors that came from the basement. But, many survived and left the building.

Does anyone here have answer to my friends dad?