Eyewitnesses to Pre-collapse sub basement explosions

CameronFox said, "Hey NotSo... There are lots of 1/2 truths and lies in the so called 'Truth Movement'"

And the other side always tells the truth?

Everyone sees evidence and then interprets it the way they see it. But, I do know this: There were explosives planted or there were no explosives planted, but not both explosives planted, and no explosives planted in the same sense and at same time. It is either, or, but not both. That would lead to contradictions.

It is harder for me to believe a fireball made its way, all the way down, to sub basements 4 and 6 destroying so much. The flames fueled by airplane fuel shot outwards as the pics and videos show as the planes hit the building. I don't want to believe there was a conspiracy to take the building down with so many people in it either. But, then again, people are capable of such atrocities.

Also I thought William Rodriguez heard and felt explosions below him (referring to P2 and P3) just prior to the one above. If it was a fireball, how did he hear and feel explosions below first then above him?

Hello People:

Can anyone explain my previous quote:

Also I thought William Rodriguez heard and felt explosions below him (referring to P2 and P3) just prior to the one above. If it was a fireball, how did he hear and feel explosions below first then above him?

So, true or false:
He heard and felt explosions in sub basements prior to the plane hitting the North Tower.

Originally posted by notsosmart
CameronFox said, "Hey NotSo... There are lots of 1/2 truths and lies in the so called 'Truth Movement'"

And the other side always tells the truth?

Everyone sees evidence and then interprets it the way they see it. But, I do know this: There were explosives planted or there were no explosives planted, but not both explosives planted, and no explosives planted in the same sense and at same time. It is either, or, but not both. That would lead to contradictions.

It is harder for me to believe a fireball made its way, all the way down, to sub basements 4 and 6 destroying so much. The flames fueled by airplane fuel shot outwards as the pics and videos show as the planes hit the building. I don't want to believe there was a conspiracy to take the building down with so many people in it either. But, then again, people are capable of such atrocities.

Also I thought William Rodriguez heard and felt explosions below him (referring to P2 and P3) just prior to the one above. If it was a fireball, how did he hear and feel explosions below first then above him?

Notsosmart,

I will be the first one to tell you the there should be a REAL investigation into 911. if you think I am "siding" with the government your wrong. I would think my avatar proves that. I am a democrat...pretty much on the liberal side. YES both sides LIE. The Truth Movement leaders are often caught in lies and 1/2 truths that they make to fit their agenda. I am not picking on anyone in this site. ITs more like the 3 idiots that made Loose Change and Dr. Jones. Notsosmart...Dr. Jones is the EX professor from BYU. NONE of his writing have been peer reviewed.

Also of you look into Dr. Jones.... he wrote a paper saying that he had PROOF that Jesus was in the united states. I will try to find it for you an post it.

All I'm saying is research BOTH sides. THEN draw your own conclusion.

Thanks

[edit on 1-12-2006 by CameronFox]

Originally posted by CameronFox

Originally posted by notsosmart
CameronFox said, "Hey NotSo... There are lots of 1/2 truths and lies in the so called 'Truth Movement'"

And the other side always tells the truth?

Everyone sees evidence and then interprets it the way they see it. But, I do know this: There were explosives planted or there were no explosives planted, but not both explosives planted, and no explosives planted in the same sense and at same time. It is either, or, but not both. That would lead to contradictions.

It is harder for me to believe a fireball made its way, all the way down, to sub basements 4 and 6 destroying so much. The flames fueled by airplane fuel shot outwards as the pics and videos show as the planes hit the building. I don't want to believe there was a conspiracy to take the building down with so many people in it either. But, then again, people are capable of such atrocities.

Also I thought William Rodriguez heard and felt explosions below him (referring to P2 and P3) just prior to the one above. If it was a fireball, how did he hear and feel explosions below first then above him?

Notsosmart,

I will be the first one to tell you the there should be a REAL investigation into 911. Are you think I am "siding" with the government your wrong. I would think my avatar proves that. I am a democrat...pretty much on the liberal side. YES both sides LIE. The Truth Movement leaders are often caught in lies and 1/2 truths that they make to fit their agenda. I am not picking on anyone in this site. ITs more like the 3 idiots that made Loose Change and Dr. Jones. Notsosmart...Dr. Jones is the EX professor from BYU. NONE of his writing have been peer reviewed.

Also of you look into Dr. Jones.... he wrote a paper saying that he had PROOF that Jesus was in the united states. I will try to find it for you an post it.

All I'm saying is research BOTH sides. THEN draw your own conclusion.

Thanks

Yeah, I would like to see that article.

And in regard to both sides lying at some points in their argument, that tends to be the case to exaggerate their points. An open person will investigate both sides and pull the facts out of the "lying heap" of rubble and paste them together and believe the most likely scenario.

It appears to me -- so far -- the side of the argument that believes it was just the hijacked planes that took down the buildings -- base of belief is, "why would someone go to that length to bring down the buildings". So, it is hard for these people to see some opposing evidence, and they must do what it takes to keep their foundation of belief intact.

But, that can work for the other side as well. They see some strong evidence to believe that the buildings needed more help then a plane and a fire. Now they have a foundation of belief and they build on it with truths, half truths, and lies (whether they know it or not).

911 Mysteries Part 1 Demolitions is very convincing even if it does not contain 100% truths. So, my purpose to come to this site and see if some one can be just as convincing for the other side. So, far the evidences in the Mysteries DVD appear more convincing then just planes and fire taking the buildings down.

I want to come to this topic like a juror without bias'.

Notsosmart...

Let me find the article about Dr. Jones. I came here with the same goal you did. To find the truth. Our paths just seem to be heading in opposite directions. I respect that though. Some of the people in here start name calling and such when they can no long provide proof to back up their claims. There are VERY smart people in here on both sides and make for very interesting discussions.

I will go look for that article.
One thing with me... I try to back everything up with facts. If its only my opinion...I'll let you know.

Originally posted by notsosmart
I don't want to believe there was a conspiracy to take the building down with so many people in it either.

If there were bombs that went off in the lower levels it still does not mean 9/11 was an inside job, meaning a government conspiracy. It may have been other terrorist involved in the plot and knew the planes were going to be flown into the buildings. Maybe they were trying to weaken the base to the buildings would topple over when hit with the planes. If you remember Ramzi Yousef's plan was to topple one tower into the other and bring them both down. That is if you believe like me that the bombing was carried out by real terrorists.

Well... it wasnt as bad as i thought it was but here it is:

Behold My Hands: Evidence for

Christ's Visit in Ancient America

by Steven E. Jones

The Book of Mormon makes the bold statement that Jesus Christ, shortly following His resurrection, visited people in the New World and invited them to "feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am...the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. ... Ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice..." (3 Nephi 11:14, 15:21). The Bible states that Jesus "showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days" and that this witness of Christ would be "unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:3-8) and that Jesus would indeed visit "other sheep" (John 10:16).

Several years ago, an idea popped into my head: Would people in the New World who also saw Jesus Christ leave memorials of this supernal experience by showing marked hands of Deity in their artwork? So I began a search with the following hypothesis-to be tested: Ancient artwork portraying a deity with deliberate markings on his hands will be found somewhere in the Americas. A crazy idea, maybe - but wait till you see the artwork of the ancient Maya!

www.democraticunderground.com...

Notsosmart...if you wold like i have several quotes from him...alex jones, and loose change writers that will probably disgust you.

Originally posted by CameronFox
Well... it wasnt as bad as i thought it was but here it is:

Behold My Hands: Evidence for

Christ's Visit in Ancient America

by Steven E. Jones

The Book of Mormon makes the bold statement that Jesus Christ, shortly following His resurrection, visited people in the New World and invited them to "feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am...the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world. ... Ye are they of whom I said: Other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice..." (3 Nephi 11:14, 15:21). The Bible states that Jesus "showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days" and that this witness of Christ would be "unto the uttermost part of the earth." (Acts 1:3-8) and that Jesus would indeed visit "other sheep" (John 10:16).

Several years ago, an idea popped into my head: Would people in the New World who also saw Jesus Christ leave memorials of this supernal experience by showing marked hands of Deity in their artwork? So I began a search with the following hypothesis-to be tested: Ancient artwork portraying a deity with deliberate markings on his hands will be found somewhere in the Americas. A crazy idea, maybe - but wait till you see the artwork of the ancient Maya!

www.democraticunderground.com...

Notsosmart...if you wold like i have several quotes from him...alex jones, and loose change writers that will probably disgust you.

Yep, he is a Mormon, and that is the common belief that Jesus came to the "Americas".

But give some of those disusting quotes (as long as they are not to long though).

And thanks for your help CameronFox

The Truth Movement leaders are often caught in lies and 1/2 truths that they make to fit their agenda

And what agenda is this, finding out what happened ?

Also of you look into Dr. Jones.... he wrote a paper saying that he had PROOF that Jesus was in the united states. I will try to find it for you an post it.

Even if dr.jones claimed HE was jesus this would not change the facts of what happend on 9/11.

When i see someone attack a persons reputation rather than the facts they highlight, its clear to me that they are struggling to keep up the debate sensibly.

This is because the truth is so hard to accept, you would rather continue the soothing lies the media/official story gives. (your taxes prob helped fund the events of september 11th.). Please consider the following quote.

"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception." Mark Twain (1835 -1910)

Watch this video of Mr Morelli telling of how he helped save people with broken legs. These sort of injuries simply could not be sustained from the jet fuel theorys.

video.google.co.uk...

Militery stand down for over an hour and a half says it all. The thousands of honest americans working in the defense systems that day (radar, transponder tracking, jet plane pilots etc) were simply following orders to not do anything because they were being told it was a drill.

Originally posted by Gilgamesh

The Truth Movement leaders are often caught in lies and 1/2 truths that they make to fit their agenda

And what agenda is this, finding out what happened ?

Also of you look into Dr. Jones.... he wrote a paper saying that he had PROOF that Jesus was in the united states. I will try to find it for you an post it.

Even if dr.jones claimed HE was jesus this would not change the facts of what happend on 9/11.

When i see someone attack a persons reputation rather than the facts they highlight, its clear to me that they are struggling to keep up the debate sensibly.

This is because the truth is so hard to accept, you would rather continue the soothing lies the media/official story gives. (your taxes prob helped fund the events of september 11th.). Please consider the following quote.

"


IF its on Google Video .. or YouTube... its GOSPEL right??

.... Ok... allow me to post some facts about some of the Truthers and their sites

Alex Jones along with the Loose Change crew on 9/11/06 near the WTC walked into a buffet restaurant and start to harass Marines. The Marines leave and are followed by Jones and camera men. He stayed behind them lecturing them about WTC 7 being pulled and thermite being found on steel at ground zero. The Marines walkled away with dignity not engaging with mr. jones. Jones got frustrated and with his finger in the air yelled... " The military industrial complex tried to get this republic,but they FAILED?"
Jones went back to the restaurant and apologized to the manager for "running his guys off".

Later on Alex Jones went on his megaphone and started chanting "PULL IT PULL IT... and MURDERER MURDERER" this was outside 120 Broadway street where Larry Silverstiens office is located.

Remember these are people that are there for peace...and to support the victims familys.

On the same day, the truthers were greeted by a "denier" and he asked them questions about Silverstien that the truthers were UNABLE to answer. Jason Bermas(from the loose change videos) is on video as he walks by a Bronze 911 rememberance that was at Firehouse 10 ....After being question by a woman about his opinion of the firefighters.... Jason said.. " The Firefighters ARE paid off."
You can see these videos at: /onbrq 26:30 - 48:40 are the key points to watch.

I have plenty of FACTS that back this up

IF its on Google Video .. or YouTube... its GOSPEL right??

If you dont believe Phillip Morelli (a construction worker WHO WAS THERE) who do you believe?

Alex Jones along with the Loose Change crew on 9/11/06 near the WTC walked into a buffet restaurant and start to harass Marines. Th........

why do you continue to try and disrepute 'truthers' reputations instead of the facts. this shows your grabbing at straws. its hard to keep up the lie all the time even when evidence stares you in the face :

youtube.com...

Gila....

I am trying to show that they LIE!

Les Jamieson Leader of a Major 911 "TRUTH" movement
a. Lies and Misquotes the Silverstein Quote
b. Lies about the condition of WTC 7
c. Claims FDNY was in on it!

Alex Jones, radio Host,911 Truth Leader..website Prison Planet
a. Said Silverstien ADMITS and decides to "pull" WTC7 on the day of attack
b. Claims to have called Silversteins office on several occasions, said Silverstein never issues a retraction for his comments. (Because he never said anything WRONG!)
c. Claims that moments before the WTC7 collapse, pictures show small office fires on only 2 floors.
d. Firefighters were told to move away from the building monments before the collaspe.
e. Claims that Silverstein profited 1/2 a billlion dollars in insurance.

Steven Jones,
a. Used diseptive photos
b. uses a concrete block to prove his theory
c. Misrepresents the condition of WTC7
d. Misrepresents the EPA report
e. Was REMOVED from his teachin postition at BYU

Loose Change Creators..

Watch the video...its FILLED with garbage.

I have links to all the above and if you would like i will post the links.




[edit on 1-12-2006 by CameronFox]

Does anyone have convincing evidence against these statements:

1. William Rodriguez heard and felt explosions below him (referring to P2 and P3) just prior to the one above (heard far away). If it was a fireball, how did he hear and feel explosions below first then above him?

2. So, true or false:
He (Rodriguez) heard and felt explosions in sub basements prior to the plane hitting the North Tower.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by notsosmart]

Watch this video of Mr Morelli telling of how he helped save people with broken legs. These sort of injuries simply could not be sustained from the jet fuel theorys.

video.google.co.uk...

Militery stand down for over an hour and a half says it all. The thousands of honest americans working in the defense systems that day (radar, transponder tracking, jet plane pilots etc) were simply following orders to not do anything because they were being told it was a drill.

I watched that 1 MINUTE video of a man who rescued people. He is a hero in my eyes. Now, at NO TIME did I hear him say that he thought that there were bombs in the basement. He says that he hears the second tower getting hit. How could a fire ball NOT casue this damage? Do you have ANY evidence what so ever to said that? Sorry, although I enjoyed hearing from another hero of that day...I failed to see what that proved.

Originally posted by notsosmart
Does anyone have convincing evidence against these statements:

1. William Rodriguez heard and felt explosions below him (referring to P2 and P3) just prior to the one above (heard far away). If it was a fireball, how did he hear and feel explosions below first then above him?

2. So, true or false:
He (Rodriguez) heard and felt explosions in sub basements prior to the plane hitting the North Tower.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by notsosmart]

NotsoSmart... I have read the stories several times. Some of his claims are a little far fetched..and times do not add up. What I find Ironic is that there is a police station in the basment in the North Tower. (Where Mr. Rodriguez was) Not one police officer has claimed to hear explosions prior to the initial impact of the aircraft. The CT's cling to this mans story because its the only so called witness to an explosion prior to the impact.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by CameronFox]

Gilga you said:

why do you continue to try and disrepute 'truthers' reputations instead of the facts. this shows your grabbing at straws. its hard to keep up the lie all the time even when evidence stares you in the face :

youtube.com...

What straws am i grabbing at? And please tell me if I have lied.

as far as your video...although I dont think this is PROOF flight 93 was shot down...i BELIEVE it was. However that is PURE opinion...I dont have the facts to back it up

Originally posted by CameronFox
How could a fire ball NOT casue this damage?

When you read posts, do you bother to think about them? This info has been posted a few times, and you've not attempted a rebut yet, so I'm just wondering if you even read them before you post things like this, or if you just ignore them.


Thus far on this thread, your case against demolition has been (1) some people aren't publicly on record reporting explosives, and (2) you think Steve Jones, etc. have said disgusting things.


Honestly, does that sound that solid or scientific to you?

And at the same time, you ask why a fireball couldn't have done that damage. Well, for reasons that have been posted several times here now, and are summed up again for you here.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by bsbray11]

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by CameronFox
How could a fire ball NOT casue this damage?

When you read posts, do you bother to think about them? This info has been posted a few times, and you've not attempted a rebut yet, so I'm just wondering if you even read them before you post things like this, or if you just ignore them.


Thus far on this thread, your case against demolition has been (1) some people aren't publicly on record reporting explosives, and (2) you think Steve Jones, etc. have said disgusting things.


Honestly, does that sound that solid or scientific to you?

And at the same time, you ask why a fireball couldn't have done that damage. Well, for reasons that have been posted several times here now, and are summed up again for you here.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by bsbray11]

Well, looks like you havent been keeping up. NotsoSmary started this thread...and I made a comment about the credibilty of the Truthers. He asked that I post some info about the liars in the truth movment and I did.
As far as the janitor goes... Well I just find it hard to beleive that there was a Port Authority officer at the time of impact and does not say that there were explosions prior to impact.

Cameron, please stop spreading confusion. who do you actually believe was behind the attacks? As far as i can see all the evidence points towards the government.

I have seen videos of numerous witness describe explosions on different floors (including NYPD etc). EYE WITNESS TESTIMONY IS VERY IMPORTANT!

I have seen videos of molten liquid pouring out the towers.

I have seen the footage of the 'squibs'

I have seen the footage of the towers exploding and falling at very close to free fall speed

I have seen the government lie about everything and refuse to investigate properly

There is no other conclusion than it was a controled demolition.

All the evidence points this way, there is no doubt in my mind.

Why do you have dick cheney (the lying peadophile rapist evil war monger) as your display picture. there is nothing funny or enlightening about it.

I think he may have been one of the ones in the government who was aware of the events of 911 very early on in the planning stages, it is insensitive to use that pic on a discussion like this. how do u think the victims of 911 would feel if they saw you plastering his face everywhere, glorifying him.

we are all looking for truth here and your picking on innocent people (alex jones etc) who are trying to raise awareness of the events of 911. this is doing NO GOOD WHATSOEVER. i dont agree with everything he says but this man has a good heart .

you seem to be inteligent and have a good grasp of words, why dont u use your intelect to expose who is clearly behind this rather than go on about dissing loose change etc.

Are you aware of the history the bush family has? this is nothing new to them. WAKE UP ! we are all on the same side here yet you seem hell bent on dividing people through petty arguments about things like alex jones' reputation.

Edit: Insulting image removed.

[edit on 1-12-2006 by intrepid]

Originally posted by CameronFox
He asked that I post some info about the liars in the truth movment and I did.

You've shown that they've lied? Or that Alex Jones isn't afraid to harrass people of opinions he doesn't agree with?

As far as the janitor goes... Well I just find it hard to beleive that there was a Port Authority officer at the time of impact and does not say that there were explosions prior to impact.

So therefore Rodriguez is a liar. Got ya.