Is the West in denial about Islam?

Originally posted by DraconianKing
That just proves how ignorant you are, religious fanatics don't represent the religion they follow. Islam when practiced properly is more peaceful than Christianity. You should try think for yourself and actually go and speak with some true Muslims and try emerse yourself in their culture for a few days. I am sure you will walk away with a different opinion, TV is mostly fiction even when portrayed as fact so be careful where you get your thoughts from.

ok? how is islam more peaceful than christianity when practiced "correctly?" - your words not mine.

Have you gone to spend time with muslims? oh! but of course you have!



Try reading my post, then go read the koran, then go read the newspapers. Then you will see the point to my thread.

Originally posted by DraconianKing
That just proves how ignorant you are, religious fanatics don't represent the religion they follow. Islam when practiced properly is more peaceful than Christianity.

Really?

"It's okay to kill them by slitting their throats, or by shooting them, any way you can deter them and others like them to do such a thing".
- Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Masri, asked whether it's ok to slit the throats of those who "work against Islam," interview for British television
www.militantislammonitor.org...

Or this:

"And that He may punish the Hypocrites, men and women, and the Polytheists men and women, who imagine an evil opinion of Allah. On them is a round of Evil: the Wrath of Allah is on them: He has cursed them and got Hell ready for them: and evil is it for a destination." -Quran 48:06
apostatesofislam.com...

It is Islam and Christianity and Judaism, the 3 religions that bring on the most blood. With these religions existing, there will always be radicals and no peace and progression of human beings will be slowed down. Instead of fighting little sand raccoons fight the real problem...religion.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Really?

"It's okay to kill them by slitting their throats, or by shooting them, any way you can deter them and others like them to do such a thing".
- Sheikh Abu Hamza al-Masri, asked whether it's ok to slit the throats of those who "work against Islam," interview for British television
www.militantislammonitor.org...

You do realize that al-Masri is about as representative of mainstream Islam as Rev. Fred Phelps is of mainstream Christianity, right? Thus rendering this argument totally void?

Or this:

"And that He may punish the Hypocrites, men and women, and the Polytheists men and women, who imagine an evil opinion of Allah. On them is a round of Evil: the Wrath of Allah is on them: He has cursed them and got Hell ready for them: and evil is it for a destination." -Quran 48:06
apostatesofislam.com...

Yeah, so? What does this prove? I can quote perfectly in-context biblical passages saying the same thing, like:

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. -John 3:36

They are both violent, hate-filled books that preach superiority over and violence upon non-believers. It's just a matter of how far you want to go with interpretation and how literal and/or liberal you want to get with the passage's meanings.

Originally posted by RetinoidReceptor
Instead of fighting little sand raccoons fight the real problem...religion.

The problem is, you cannot fight religion in general. It goes against basic freedom of belief. What you can fight against, however, are it's harmful effects.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
ok? how is islam more peaceful than christianity when practiced "correctly?" - your words not mine.

Have you gone to spend time with muslims? oh! but of course you have!

Try reading my post, then go read the koran, then go read the newspapers. Then you will see the point to my thread.

alright, i dusted off my copy of the koran
read it

then i looked at a newspaper

what was i supposed to see?

in my opinion, when practiced properly christianity and islam are equally peaceful
when practiced horribly they can be equally bloody

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

in my opinion, when practiced properly christianity and islam are equally peaceful
when practiced horribly they can be equally bloody

sould you care to elaborate on that? I dont quite understand your meaning?

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

in my opinion, when practiced properly christianity and islam are equally peaceful
when practiced horribly they can be equally bloody

sould you care to elaborate on that? I dont quite understand your meaning?

i believe that any fairly decent system of belief when put in the right hands can yield good results for society as a whole

however, when you put the same fairly decent system of belief into the hands of wackos and maniacs, you get horrid conflicts of ordained violence

the problem isn't the system of belief, it's how people are handling it

I think you need to put things into perspective and see that christians aren't the ones that are attaching explosives to their body and detonating themselves around random crowds of people. They're not the ones hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings. They're not the ones that are waging holy war against other nations because they aren't christian. Regardless of your anti-american/bush propaganda, Christians have changed plenty since the crusades. While a good portion of the Islamic population remain in a backwards society where everything is dictated by religious doctrine.

Originally posted by laiguana
I think you need to put things into perspective and see that christians aren't the ones that are attaching explosives to their body and detonating themselves around random crowds of people. They're not the ones hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings. They're not the ones that are waging holy war against other nations because they aren't christian. Regardless of your anti-american/bush propaganda, Christians have changed plenty since the crusades. While a good portion of the Islamic population remain in a backwards society where everything is dictated by religious doctrine.

that last line explains my belief perfectly

they are in a BACKWARDS SOCIETY
it isn't a religious issue, the problem lies in how the society is handling islam

Originally posted by laiguana
I think you need to put things into perspective and see that christians aren't the ones that are attaching explosives to their body and detonating themselves around random crowds of people.

No, it's because the christians in this conflict have the good fortune of having an organized combative force at their disposal, so the average christian doesn't have to throw himself at the enemy. Desperation is a horrible thing, and when you have corrupt leaders whispering in your ear that blowing yourself up is the right thing to do, you find that turning your back on the hellish world you live in in order to gain guaranteed entrance to paradise seems like a damn good idea.

They're not the ones hijacking planes and crashing them into buildings.

No, but they're the ones renting delivery trucks, filling them with fuel and fertilizer, and blowing federal buildings in half. They're also the ones that throw grenades into funeral services, bomb gay nightclubs, and shoot doctors to death because they don't like what those doctors are legally doing.

They're not the ones that are waging holy war against other nations because they aren't christian.

No, not at this moment they're not. But they have before and it would not suprise me in the least if it happens again. Mind you, I'm not of the group who believes that the "War on Terror" is in fact a holy war against the Middle East, even though Bush said that God told him to move against the region.

Regardless of your anti-american/bush propaganda, Christians have changed plenty since the crusades.

Christians have. Don't forget, though, that the Inquisitions took place between the crusades and now, as well as the decimation of the south american peoples and their culture by the conquistadors, the mass conversion and slaughter of the north american natives, and the little embarassment we today call the Salem Witch Trials.

While a good portion of the Islamic population remain in a backwards society where everything is dictated by religious doctrine.

And this statement here is the undoing of your entire argument. It's not the religion. It's the backwards society. It's not the religion. It's the indoctrination, the abuse of power and the twisting of words.

Take a look back at the founding of America. I assume you know why the first major push was made by immigrants to come to the west, correct? It was to escape religious persecution. They came here to start over, to craft a new country where religious freedom was tolerated and you wouldn't be told who or how to worship. The foundation of your country is based on an anti-extremist movement, and thank whatever that this trend is still present in western culture (though for how long I'm unsure). Any religious extremism has been stopped before it arose because the popular opinion of the inhabitants of the west is that of moderation. This is the difference between here and there, a difference that seems to be eroding by the day as rhetoric replaces reason.

The middle east has seen nothing but violence since ancient times. There are three powerful groups of people who all claim that the same man in the sky told them that it belonged to them, and that they have to make it theirs. All have killed in his name, and all will continue to do so until only one remains there. Why? Because "it is written", or so their leaders tell the commons. It doesn't matter which you subscribe to.

We have things very good over here. Over there, life is a literal hell on earth. If a priest here were to tell you that going to and dying in a war against the brown people would get you into heaven, would you? Probably not, because you have family, friends, people you love, things you want to do with your life, a future to look towards to, goals and dreams. Why give that all up to die in a dirt pile halfway across the globe? But now consider the other side of the coin. What if all you had to look forward to was dying in a ditch, poor, with no family, job, or hope of a future? Now when a priest tells you that you'll most likely die horribly anyway, look around you and see, but you can go to a better place by doing him a favor, by doing god a favor, what have you got to lose, look what you stand to gain, well...dying at the epicenter of a bomb blast is pretty painless. It beats starving to death.

The west should not fear Islam. There's nothing to fear in Islam. The west should fear the desperate, the homeless, those with nothing while we have everything. You yourself have just said this:

...backwards society where everything is dictated by religious doctrine.

That's what the west should fear. And that is what the west is leaning towards. Hate the Muslims because we tell you, not because you should. Look at what the Muslims are doing. Let me tell you what they will do next. Hate them. Kill them. That's what is happening to us. We are becoming what we are so "righteously" fighting against.

I for one will have no part of it.

Yes, and not only the West, but the entire world, even some who are in Islam are in denial about what Islam truly is.

You have voted Thousand for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.

thousand, you earned that with your commentary on the societal aspects

[Originally posted by Thousand
But now consider the other side of the coin. What if all you had to look forward to was dying in a ditch, poor, with no family, job, or hope of a future? Now when a priest tells you that you'll most likely die horribly anyway, look around you and see, but you can go to a better place by doing him a favor, by doing god a favor, what have you got to lose, look what you stand to gain, well...dying at the epicenter of a bomb blast is pretty painless. It beats starving to death.

If I had the strength to strap a bomb around my waist and walk into a crowd, I would surely have the strength to gather up my family and get them out of that hellhole to a better life. I would not be controlled by the words of a shaman. But that's just me.

Originally posted by jsobecky
If I had the strength to strap a bomb around my waist and walk into a crowd, I would surely have the strength to gather up my family and get them out of that hellhole to a better life. I would not be controlled by the words of a shaman. But that's just me.

this isn't about strength, it's about opportunity
you cannot merely get through everything with enough effort, that's just not how life works
if you do not have the means to get out of a nation, you're stuck


and, shaman?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
this isn't about strength, it's about opportunity
you cannot merely get through everything with enough effort, that's just not how life works
if you do not have the means to get out of a nation, you're stuck

It's about strength. If people are given every possible opportunity, they are likely to succeed in spite of themselves. Strength is what makes one man a success, while lack of it makes another a failure.

and, shaman?

The term I use to describe anyone who deems himself the master of another because of an unverifiable hot line to some spiritual being.

Originally posted by jsobecky
If I had the strength to strap a bomb around my waist and walk into a crowd, I would surely have the strength to gather up my family and get them out of that hellhole to a better life.

Where would you go? If it was merely a matter of strength, why are there so many homeless and destitute in the world? A lot of those people are far stronger physically, mentally, and spiritually than most of us, yet they are still chained to their lives and doomed to follow through with them. Strength is part of it, to be sure. You need the willpower to want to change your situation and the constitution to stick to your choices, but that's not everything. You need opportunity. All the bullets in the world will do you no good if you haven't a gun to use them with.

I would not be controlled by the words of a shaman. But that's just me.

Unless you were born into a society that is under the control of one. I think you'd follow them to the letter if they were all you've ever known. I know I would.

Originally posted by Thousand
Where would you go? If it was merely a matter of strength, why are there so many homeless and destitute in the world?

I would rather live in a free nation and be destitute and poor (as a matter of fact, I have done just that), than destitute and poor and enslaved. As a matter of fact, my early years were ruled by religion.

I realize it is a difficult journey out of that darkness. But the change has to come from within, and I was fortunate enough to live in a free land where choices were not hidden from me.

I would not be controlled by the words of a shaman. But that's just me.

Unless you were born into a society that is under the control of one. I think you'd follow them to the letter if they were all you've ever known. I know I would.

And this is what I find so repulsive - theocracies that control their subjects through intimidation and fear. I've lived long enough to realize that behind every bully is a coward.

I think many apologists on the left are aware of the deceptive practices of foreign policy and the possible use of false flag operations in inciting hatred among our neighbours in the East.

I don't think those arguments, which provide peaceful solutions to the issues that enable so many people to feel justified following violent ideologues, should be diverted.

Many muslims are culturally advanced and seek their own secular governments. But we do have bigoted fundamentalists on both sides.

Seemingly in the West, the social will to re-evaluate personal lifestyles doesn't support a change in the political inertia that is currently warring to protect the interests of 1 billion people out of 5 billion world-wide utilizing 85% of all the goods on the market. Leaving 14% for the remaining 5 billion.

It doesn't take a mathematician to evaluate where all the rancour originates. Living the life of Tantalus under constant media colonization of Western excess must be very frustrating indeed.

However, there's nothing to suggest that given the same circumstances in a reversed position, ie - The East have all the marketable goods and we're hungry - that they would be any more willing to share. There's a great deal of evidence to suggest they would prefer to make converts out of us all and failing that kill us.

It does appear to be a dilemma. Bush has failed to create a more secure political environment that may open better negotiations. Moreso, he's protected the interests of Hellasburntya with his policies in Iraq.

Free market capitalism and the policies of the IMF will erode the economic status of the West, but it won't necessarily be to the advantage of the East. Many people now slave under starvation wages and military duress. Rather than experiencing a boon in their living standards, they are getting the 'trickle down' of corporate opportunism.

There is no will in the West to create greater responsibility towards social and legislative sensitivity on the part of corporations and the government, other than on the left - and that is probably our best hope for peace. Creating better balance.

Instead what we see is the creation of corporate wealth so vast it outstrips the power of nations and politicians do little more than represent these interests.

Eventually, our economy will be weakened enough that enemies will see their opportunity to turn the tide. Geographically, these powers are not so much reliant on America as they once were.

We underestimate the inertia of that economic reality and the possibilty of a mid and far Eastern alliance cemented in the hopes of toppling our economic advantage. That will happen eventually anyway, with manufacturing moving mostly to the East insuring their economic growth. Boomers have alot of wealth, but that will not last forever.

With resources getting scarcer, the fight will probably get dirtier sooner than later. We are between a rock and a hard place and the sooner we get honest about it the better.

Some may call it a fight over God, it's really a fight over the right to power and control and economics.

Originally posted by clearwater
Excellent commentary on the current situation.

Now it's my turn to hand out a WATS vote. Very well put together analysis.