Is the West in denial about Islam?

Originally posted by PlayeR87
in a muslim ruled world all other religions would be ruled void and practising members of that religon must likely killed

Probably should mention the fact that Christians and Jews are considered "Children of the Book" and are therefore to be protected. Many other religions still exist within the "Islamic World" and recieve about as much attention there as a Mosque does over here.

Originally posted by Spawwwn
I don’t like war...but the more and more I think about how the fact america can’t get out of iraq because half of the country is crazy terrorists (or just hate america for being there) I get more and more pissed. I’m also pissed that the entire middle east region is just A BACKWARDS THIRD WORLD COUNTRY.

I swear these people are not fully evolved yet...they are so backwards in their belifs about society and women, that it’s really like they are living 300 years behind modern times.

I say that radical islam must be eliminated at all costs. IF that means nukeing entire countries, and turning the middle east into a wasteland, then that’s what we gotta do. Cause these idiots don’t’ understand crap execpt violence. Why do you think saddam was such a good leader? Beacuse he was violent to no end.

There is a guy out there who is thinking exactly what you are thinking. You are no different from him except that you are maybe Christian and hes a muslim.

LOL I can't believe you would condemn radicals and then consider such radical ideas as a solution! Thank God we don't have people with your ideas sitting with their fingers on the button. I think we are all doomed.

Originally posted by MasterJedi
Perhaps the responses are just what you were referring to. Because even the nicest of Muslims believe what their scripture states... And that is in the end they will die fighting in a global battle against the infidels... So if their major religious leaders decided that the time was proper to declare Jihad, then all those nice loving muslims would slit your throat in the name of their God.

Thats pretty much what I am saying, how can we live in peace with people who devoutly believe that you should convert or die. No choice, nothing.

I have nothing against peace, when peace is attainable and sustainable.

Originally posted by kozmo
...based on the responses to your post, I'd say you got your answer. The Reader's Digest version: Yes, Western culture is in BIG trouble!

yeah, unfortuneately we are screwed if the majority of the west thinks this way.

Maybe we can put them on the frontlines

Come on! I am an American and I fear for europe more than europeans do!

Something isnt right.

dont be fooled by the current situation! yes, there are muslims living peacefully in europe, for now but not forever.

and motex, I am not advocating that we commit genocide! I am advocating western culture survives!

I find it funny that so many people believe that the West is incapable of defending itself. The fact of the matter is that our day to day life has not been effected by this entire war or any terrorism. The day that the west is hurt to the point where it effects us on our day to day lives and really hurts us then you will see the west rise up and become the most violent people around.

Society as we call it is just a mask, a mask that we wear when everything goes well and we want to feel good about ourselves. But when the economy and security of a nation or group of people especially westerners collapses than society as we know it breaks down. Then the people of that nation give power to extremists. We'll prolly call that WWIII



[edit on 11/29/2006 by JackJuice]

The biggest issue is that we in the West expect the rest of the world to be as tolerant as we are of others beliefs, rights, ect. Just because we allow religious, and political freedoms we expect the same from other countries. I am sorry, but for a vast majority of Muslim nations there is neither the freedom of religion or of political beliefs that are present in Western Democracies, Turkey and Indonesia excepted.

In fact, I would go as far as to say a majority of citizens in many Muslim States are in fact intolerant or at least taught intolerance of other beliefs and people to a very unhealthy degree. It might be more of an Arab Middle East intolerance rather than an overall Muslim intolerance, as the far flung regions of Islam ie. Turkey and Indonesia, seem to be much more secular and tolerant than their Arab Muslim brethren.

Yes militant Islam is a minority in overall Islam. However, you do not see the same percentage of militants in other religions of the world. Where are the Hindu and Buddhist and Christian militants that are waging war on other religions? If it is religion in general that is causing the extremism, shouldn't we expect to see the same amount in all religions? Why is primarily Islam the only religion that has a substantial violent militant aspect in today's modern world? Something has gone very wrong with a specific segments of Islam, not all of Islam, that threatens to burst into something very bad for the whole world.

I think we are in denial of all religons.

How much pain and suffering has been caused over the ages from books written by men and edited to suit the needs of a few to cause so much loss of life to the population.

If religon makes you a better person then fine, but don't hurt someone else because they don't believe in your god.

Originally posted by JackJuice
I find it funny that so many people believe that the West is incapable of defending itself. The fact of the matter is that our day to day life has not been effected by this entire war or any terrorism. The day that the west is hurt to the point where it effects us on our day to day lives and really hurts us then you will see the west rise up and become the most violent people around.
[edit on 11/29/2006 by JackJuice]

That is called "too little, too late" Im afraid. It wont help us to "rise up" if we are already under the jack boot of islam.

Originally posted by sbob
I think we are in denial of all religons.

How much pain and suffering has been caused over the ages from books written by men and edited to suit the needs of a few to cause so much loss of life to the population.

If religon makes you a better person then fine, but don't hurt someone else because they don't believe in your god.

I think you are just skirting the issue. I dont see any other religion that has caused nearly as much conflict in recent times as islam. islam is a religion that rewards violence against "non-believers".

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
How can we expect to fight this ideology in the world when so many amongst us are apologists for islam?

The same way we've fought bigotry. By giving everyone equal say, and letting all the conflicting voices drown each other out in the chaos.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Do we really think we can maintain a free society under a muslim majority which despises women and non-muslims?

No, that's a ridiculous question to ask, of course we couldn't. We can only have a Christian majority that despises women and non-Christians, otherwise it'd be wrong. And you'd be a Communist to think otherwise.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Will this be the death of the tolerant western world?

Let me get this straight. You're asking if the acceptance of a consumer base the size of 15-25% of the Earth's population is going to be the death of a capitalist democracy? I just want to be certain if the question is actually as ridiculous as sounds in my head.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Is the West in denial?

Ummm... yeah, that's kinda how we got as far as we did. We've pretty much lived in denial of everything the world said to be rote, since about 1776... We deny "reality", and then we change the world to fit our desires. It's worked pretty well for us so far.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
What do you think?

I think your questions came across as thinly-veiled bigotry against Muslims. But I also give you the benefit of the doubt for actually asking, rather than simply proclaiming. Perhaps there is hope for a well-thought out dialogue.

I apologize for nothing, and most Muslims are just as pissed off about their extremist bretheren as we are, if not more so. It has, up until recently, been a largely ignored and avoided religion. Muslims kept to themselves in their corner of the world, and were allowed to remain stagnant in OLD OLD OLD ways that have been around since civilization was still in diapers.

Muslims that moved to other areas of the globe assimilated into society for the most part, and learned to respect the values of the societies they were within AND integrate it into a peaceful, tolerant Islamic way of life.

Now the Old World Muslims have had the new world thrust upon them, and the Old Boys Network in the Middle East is rather displeased about the inevitable winds of change that will eventually disempower them, and are desperately clinging together to try and carve a niche out of the new pie being baked.

I think there will be escalating violence, and louder cries of dissent, but they will become fewer and fewer as Old World Muslims gradually come to realize that life's a lot better when you have things like running water, electricity, and Wal-Mart...or at least, it's preferable to suicide bombings, car bombings, hijacking planes, etc...

That's what I think, anyway. In truth, we don't have to do much more than be the same nation we've always been, and maybe actually TALK to the Old World Muslims instead of only shooting at them.


(edit: oops, bolded most the post)

[edit on 11/30/2006 by thelibra]

My opinion is we are well and truely stuffed! I'm not racist or prejudice but there are clearly some influencial muslim clerics who want controll of the west. i've even hears it with my own ears too many times.

And because of this stupid pc nonsense eveni i may have to appear in court as a witness, openinig myself to the danger of reprisals from fanatics who want to deny everyone there freedom. and believe me it is thier way or the highway, even moderate muslims will get a shock they won't anticipate.

Originally posted by pavil
However, you do not see the same percentage of militants in other religions of the world. Where are the Hindu and Buddhist and Christian militants that are waging war on other religions?.

All religions have precedents when it comes to violent persecution of others. Where are the Christian militants? There were quite a few butchering innocents during the 80's in Lebanon. There were quite a few militants throughout Christian history. Just because intolerence is currently in vogue in one religion doesn't mean it won't resurface in another.

It's hardly surprising that the Middle East is a hotbed of anti-Western (note, not anti-Christian) sentiment, especially if you read a few books about the history of the region. Breaking promises after WW1, much of the area under "Great Power" occupation, we've managed to transform Iran from a Democracy to a Dictatorship and finally into an Islamic Republic...... That's a pretty impressive ****-up.

Is it really surprising that the region is so vehemently anti-western? The Boxer rebellion was another instance of radicalising a people against the "Imperialist" powers, our problem in the west has always been the fact that we never learn from our mistakes. Over and over again we carry out the same sequence of actions, that in the past has always led to a bloody conflict that would never have occured if not for our arrogance and short-sightedness.

Originally posted by PlayeR87
in a muslim ruled world all other religions would be ruled void and practising members of that religon must likely killed

The same happened in a Christian-ruled world as well, don't forget that. Ever.

What I see in this thread is a lot of uninformed bigotry and personal bias, spouted by those with little tolerance, or even desire for tolerance, with things they don't know of and don't understand.

Islam will not invade the West. It can't. The West is an unimaginably powerful force on the world stage at the moment. Nothing can even hope to threaten it without some kind of superpower-level financial backing. What I'm seeing here is the same kind of red-threat McCarthyism that was so prevalent during the cold war. "An Islamofacist under every bed" type deal. There's a lot of finger pointing and passing the buck, and absolutely no attempt, or more disturbing, desire to attempt to look into the real causes of the problems the world faces right now.

I sometimes feel like I'm drowning in ignorance and unresearched, uniformed opinion-driven talking points that swarm around and stifle the western world. There are so many that want to hate for no reason...to the OP, don't you realize you are just a western mirror-image of those you claim are so driven to undo the planet? You preach fighting eastern "ignorance", yet you do it without even wanting to examine the situation, the real situation, not the one you are told about on TV, at all?

Muslims are not a threat. They have no desire to rule the planet, and even if they tried they would be swatted down in a hail of nuclear-fired western capitalistic imperialism. There are radical elements of Islam who desire to wipe the face of the planet clean of its infidel infestation, but those elements are in every religion, not just Islam. Have you heard of the white-power Neo-Nazi movement? They are Christian to a fault, and last I heard they weren't too fond of most inhabitants of Earth either.

Stop with the purposeful inflammatory mudslinging, and start with the Denying of Ignorance.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

There is widespread denial, across the political spectrum, of Islam’s threat to our civilization. The far left has become so consumed by its hatred of our culture that it has abandoned its traditional hostility towards religion in the face of the revival of one of the most barbaric and oppressive religious ideologies in history. Having assumed a policy of anti-anti-Islam, the left has made what Horowitz calls an Unholy Alliance with our enemy, defending it at every opportunity. The anti-rational nihilistic post-modern left is a heavy weight on the whole left side of the spectrum, drowning out any sane voice of moderation. Such fashionable academic nonsense has already corrupted popular politics.

I couldn't agree more with this. It shows exactly where the radical left stands, and they stand with the enemy. They're so overwhelmed with hatred of the U.S. and western nations that they'll find any excuse to pardon terrorism fueled by Islamic extremism as it is set on attacking our way of life. To the radical left nothing is more pleasing than to see America be under attack. I was unfortunate to even hear them give excuses to the 9/11 terrorists by saying that America deserved it and was responsible for the attack.
Like I said I really think these radicals are a cancer to our nation, they will excuse the most barbaric forms of terrorism, even going against their usual diatribe of religion to support the attacks made against America and other wester nations. This is exactly why I support the Patriot Act. We must carefully observe these individuals before they turn it up a notch and decide to become terrorists themselves.

Originally posted by laiguana
To the radical left nothing is more pleasing than to see America be under attack.

That kind of ignorance should be painful it's so stupid! How dare you make such a remark about people you don't know. You may have differing views on domestic and foreign policy, but that gives you zero right to claim they or anyone else wished for innocent people to die.

Unless you're a troll I would seriously recommend you apologize.

And for the record, I'm a moderate that's rapidly becoming discusted with the right's assumption that the left hates America. You two might not like how you want things run, but you can't seriously believe that the other side is actively seeking the purposeful destruction of America. And frankly, from the middle, if anyone's been destroying America lately, it's been the party in power for the last six years.

As an English bloke, I can assure you that there's a real irony in seeing Americans posting about the violence and "backwardness" of the Middle East.

Well I'm going on by what I've read and seen from the radical left, and yes I do recall those that identified themselves as liberals saying that America deserved 9/11. So no I won't apologize. Anyone who thinks that way is as much a threat to our freedom as any terrorist.

Originally posted by laiguana
Well I'm going on by what I've read and seen from the radical left, and yes I do recall those that identified themselves as liberals saying that America deserved 9/11. So no I won't apologize. Anyone who thinks that way is as much a threat to our freedom as any terrorist.

Well considering that the root cause of this terrorism is the actions of the West in the middle east...

I won't say America deserved it, but I will say they had it coming. For a long time, they had it coming.

I've only had time to skim over this thread, so I'll be brief. First, there were a couple of posts that caught my attention.

Originally posted by Yancheck
External Source

David Horowitz
David Joel Horowitz (born January 10, 1939) is an American conservative writer and activist. A prominent supporter of Marxism and a member of the New Left in the 1960s, Horowitz later rejected Leftism and now identifies with the right wing of the political spectrum. He is a founder of the David Horowitz Freedom Center (formerly the Center for the Study of Popular Culture), a writer for the conservative magazine NewsMax, and the editor of the popular conservative website FrontPageMag.com. He founded the activist group Students for Academic Freedom and is affiliated with Campus Watch, and frequently appears on the Fox News Channel as an analyst,

Is there a reason why you emphasized the Fox News Channel? It is as if you want to vilify them. Admittedly, they have a conservative bent, but they are also the most successful cable news network in the US. That should tell you something about how the majority of Americans lean. If not for Fox News, our TV would be one big liberal mess.

and...

External Source


Horowitz appears to have openly admitted he committed treason against the United States. Ramparts, a magazine he was editor of, had acquired classified intelligence information from a former NSA operative and had published it, eventhough one of their own staffers, who had formerly served in Army Intelligence, had judged the information to be truthful, and refused to work on the story, and Horowitz knew this prior to the publication of the Ramparts story. Horowitz also sought the advice of a prominent Constitutional scholar before publishing it, who had explained to him the best methods of avoiding prosecution for this act of treason.

This sounds exactly like what the New York Times and LA Times do on a regular basis. But of course, when they do it, they are hailed as "patriotic whistleblowers".

Anyway, to answer your initial questions, XphilesPhan,

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Here are my questions:

How can we expect to fight this ideology in the world when so many amongst us are apologists for islam?

Do we really think we can maintain a free society under a muslim majority which despises women and non-muslims?

Will this be the death of the tolerant western world?

Is the West in denial?

What do you think?

Yes, I do believe that there is a threat to our country from Islam. Do not be fooled by smiling faces that rub your back; they are only feeling for the best spot to stick the proverbial knife into. And do not be lulled by the argument that the majority want peace and that their bad reputation comes from a few fanatics. When they start offering up the murderers in their society instead of harboring them, and when they loudly and publicly do things like denouncing the murderers with large public protests, then you may take that as a start.

Is the West in denial? Not the US, imo. I can't say the same for our friends across the pond. But here, people are very vigilant, with long memories. For example, I cannot envision someone like Abu Hamza being tolerated here.

I have hope in the spirit and strength of the American family. We are a very tolerant people, and sometimes our silence is mistaken for apathy or assent. But underneath, what makes our society so great is what gives us our strength. And our values are rooted in something much deeper than a religion. It comes from respect and tolerance for all men, and a belief that life is precious. And we will defend those values to the end when they are threatened by those who mean us harm.

That just proves how ignorant you are, religious fanatics don't represent the religion they follow. Islam when practiced properly is more peaceful than Christianity. You should try think for yourself and actually go and speak with some true Muslims and try emerse yourself in their culture for a few days. I am sure you will walk away with a different opinion, TV is mostly fiction even when portrayed as fact so be careful where you get your thoughts from.