PROOF of the Conspiracy OR PROOF of God? OR: "Only On ATS"? This will make you think.

I thought it was

I am that I am and that's all that I am.

(popeye)

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
...Esoteric Teacher (no answer supplied, yet)

I think it would only be fair to ask that you supply your opinion...After all you started the poll.

True, it would be fair for me to share my opinion.

However, i would like to say that since the beginning of my life everyone seems to want to share their opinion with me, so i think i will share their opinions, but first they will share their opinions, which is what they like to do anyways.

i not shared my opinion, for i have no opinion to share.

the truth of what i am has supplied an answer: D (i have not specified as to why it is "D", yet.)

but i will do so, i promise.

Originally posted by soshootme

where did you get this idea from. tell me tell me!!!!!!!

I took all the rules of the bible, and applied them to the words. This is a quantum leap in results, but if it is proof, then what is it proof of?

That love saves the day.

That love ALWAYS finds the way.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
I took all the rules of the bible, and applied them to the words. This is a quantum leap in results, but if it is proof, then what is it proof of?

It's proof that those who have the "authority" to edit, change, publish, set typesets, etc. have some idea how to sublimate their own ideas into that which they can control...Hence, my opinion that it proves a conspiracy.

I love stuff like this.

On the one hand I would be inclined to brush it off as coincidence. 911? analyzed to become words, to give meaning to something perhaps where no meaning resides. It's the field of dreams theory...if you build it they will come. The egg before the chicken...

On the other hand I am a believer that things, all things...happen for a reason, whether that reason is immediately known or understood or even recognized is a mute point. It's akin to admitting to some kind of path or plan that is predetermined and once the event takes place, there can be found numerous "ah ha!" s and multiples of epiphanies that correlate and amplify the event (s).

This does create food for thought if not about your theory of "I am" = 911? then about the conflict between a resolute path and what we call coincidence. I find I'm at odds with myself as usual. Though this is certainly due to under analyzing as opposed to the opposite.

I've seen some interesting things posted in relation to 911 and indeed to other terrible events...and some stick out, while others are more obscure and require a more or less subtle approach.

I am also a firm believer that if one feels need to "find" or "create" meaning to understand the world we live in and the events that we face daily individually or as a collective, then it is still far better than simply believing there is meaning without ever having sought it out.

Then again I could be talking out my arse and be far too tired for my own good.



[edit on 12/2/2006 by justgeneric]

Originally posted by justgeneric
On the other hand I am a believer that things, all things...happen for a reason, whether that reason is immediately known or understood or even recognized is a mute point.

"Beneath the broad tide of human history there flow the stealthy undercurrents of the secret societies, which frequently determine in the depths the changes that take place upon the surface."--Arthur Edward Waite, The Real History of the Rosicrucians

"The pupils (of the Illuminati) are convinced that the order will rule the world. Every member therefore becomes a ruler."--John Robinson, Proofs of a Conspiracy

"...Nothing happens by accident. If it happens, it was planned that way."--President Franklin D. Roosevelt

"Three hundred men, all of whom know one another, direct the economic destiny of Europe & choose their successors from among themselves."--Carroll Quigley. Tragedy & Hope

"Power is the end. What other delight is there but to enjoy the sheer sense of control?"--Richard J. Whalen, The Founding Father

Yep, everything happens for a reason...The main problem is that the reason most-often originates from some conspiracy or another.

Originally posted by justgeneric
I am also a firm believer that if one feels need to "find" or "create" meaning to understand the world we live in and the events that we face daily individually or as a collective, then it is still far better than simply believing there is meaning without ever having sought it out.

This is a natural human tendency that originates from the way our brains evolved to develop the intellect we possess (at least, according the best theories I've heard in the field of Biology & the physical development of the human brain). As we humans were evolving into our more modern forms, we used Mysticism to figure out some form of "order" that existed in the Natural environment we live in...We create different laws & religions to give us some sense of stability amidst chaos. We always seek to make sense of the senseless & continue to try unscrewing the inscrutable. It's a part of who & what we are.
This, I believe, is the primal motivation behind those who conspire against their fellow humans...And also why I believe that the conspirators can never fully succeed at achieving total control. It's because they can't suppress the primal curiosity/sense of order in everybody is why there will always be someone who will dig for the truth, figure out what they do & try to stop them.

This is, after all, why websites like ATS have a reason to exist in the first place...That primal human motivation can't be forcibly suppressed. This is something that we'd have to evolve through & only time & our continued survival (as a species) can do that.

[edit on 2-12-2006 by MidnightDStroyer]

Thanks Midnight That about sums it up really, and quite nicely too!

But...what of those who never question, never wonder, never conspire...I've met them and frankly they scare the be-jeezuz out of me. Is this ability to question really a natural function or is it a cognitive function? Can it be damaged? can it be cured?

We've all heard and likely used the term "head in ones arse" to describe the folk who complacently wander through life never acknowledging the coincidental or even applying meaning where meaning may not be readily found.

I think it may be more cognitive personally.

Imagine, we can be trained to be fearful. We can be trained to obey without fail even without motivation in many cases...can we not also be trained to never question?

That is the conspiracy I fear most.

Thanks for the quotes above...I like those

And yes ATS is a place to pose questions...though sometimes it seems there are more questions than answers. I love a challenge though

Originally posted by justgeneric
Is this ability to question really a natural function or is it a cognitive function? Can it be damaged? can it be cured?

IM(educated)O, I think it's a natural function...It even exists in animal lifeforms: Without such an ability, a lifeform will not be able to figure out what to eat/how to eat, fight or flee a potential threat. Without the natural ability to question what sensations are being relayed to the brain, survival is impossible.
It's just that as humans developed a system of social interaction with each other, the issues that are brought to question get more complex & thought-provoking than what animals are capable.
Yes, humans can be trained to try suppressing such a base instinct...Much the same as you could eventually train your dog to realize that, when you bare your teeth it's a sign of affection instead of a potential threat or challenge. The dog's normal instinct is to treat bared teeth as a threat, but the dog can learn to accept it as non-threatening behavior if it's performed by a human.
The difficulty lies in the fact that curiosity/sense of order is a survival instinct. Humanity must gradually evolve out of such an instinct through time: This is why I postulated that it can't be forced out of our psyches by the very same conspirators that still act out of that very same basic instinct. This is why the so-called NWO's plan for world control must be a long-term, multi-generational plan...It's their plan to train us to suppress our basic instinct that would consider them as a threat to our survival. However, as long as the conspirators possess the same instinct, they'll never be able to eliminate it in the rest of humanity.
Throughout all of human history, there have been conspirators that seek such power & control...And they usually get it for some time. But since the rest of humanity still possesses the instinct, the conspirators' power-structure collapses. The history of humanity is full of such examples of how oppressive rule is brought down...It's because the seeking of total power can never be fully achieved & it will never be permanent.

Originally posted by justgeneric
But...what of those who never question, never wonder, never conspire...I've met them and frankly they scare the be-jeezuz out of me.

I think they do so because they have "conditioned" themselves to disregard their basic instinct to seek order amid chaos...In short, I think it may be connected to a very subconscious "death-wish", that they have allowed the conspirators' social control-systems to insinuate itself in their minds. They probably do think about questioning what they experience, but in seeking answers to their questions they simply believe the first answer that "sounds good." This brings them to consciously suppress their basic instinct, even though they don't seek to question the answers that they do get.
Even during the "Nixon Era" of government, when Nixon was caught in the Watergate Scandal, the general public basically reacted with a, "Yeah, we always knew our government is corrupt," and then went on about their daily lives...They never took to their instinct of curiosity & pursued the matter any further: Why did this happen? Why can't we the People do something about preventing such corruption from spreading in the Halls of Power?
This could be why they scare the "be-jeezuz" out of you...These people are the ones who have given over to their "subconscious death-wish" and it rings some deep, subconscious alarm bells in your psyche. At least, it does to me...

POP Quiz:

Question #1:

1. This is the result of:

a) Proof there is a God.
b) Proof there is a conspiracy
c) Proof there is a coincidence.
d) _______________________ (other) Please specify.


D) Proof of "FREE WILL" and "REASONABLE DOUBT".

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

D) Proof of "FREE WILL" and "REASONABLE DOUBT".

Good answer. And is a QED for my answer. But then it raises an entire new set of issues which could be viewed as semantic nit-picking, so I won't. But I'll just offer this (Ignore away if this gets too tedious or off-topic)- There is a difference (IMO) between "free will" and "choice". Free will is just that - free. No such thing as "partial free will" or "limited free will". Your will is either 100% entirely free, or it isn't free. I don't believe we have "free will".

>ducks and hides

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
D) Proof of "FREE WILL" and "REASONABLE DOUBT".

It seems that your answer is merely a different reflection of my long-winded explanations posted so far.
To prove "reasonable doubt" you must first be intelligent enough to recognize "proof of conspiracy." To fight against that conspiracy is "proof of free will."


[edit on 2-12-2006 by MidnightDStroyer]

Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
D) Proof of "FREE WILL" and "REASONABLE DOUBT".

It seems that your answer is merely a different reflection of my long-winded explanations posted so far.
To prove "reasonable doubt" you must first be intelligent enough to recognize "proof of conspiracy." To fight against that conspiracy is "proof of free will."

you may indeed be right.

but, it is our "opinions" that decide how we think for us, not the facts of how we percieve reality. Given that all sensory input first gets delivered to the subconscious mind, and not the conscious mind.

the decisions you have made that "perfected" your current "opinion" were possibly made years if not decades ago. and, now those decisions you made years or decades ago, is how you view the world. automatic responses of how to interpret reality is made by your subconsious mind, which recieves all incoming sensory stimulation, then regergitates what it is you choose to believe.

In other words, the judgments you made long ago have an affect on your perception of reality.

Okay...everything happens for a reason. If everything happens for a reason there is no free will there is merely a road map...all points lead to the predetermined junction or destination.

That's one issue.

Then we get into yet more cognitive aspects...like reasoning, subliminal messages, consciousness and awareness of self and of the individual thought(s).

Cognition requires very little actual intelligence. All it requires is basic ability to express and or absorb emotion for it is our primal emotions that lead us to use our cognitive functions.

That "gut feeling" is cognitive. It's our subconscious mind poking us.

Being able to form an opinion at all requires not one iota of free will. It merely requires thought provoked by a stimulus. We form opinions not solely on our own thoughts for we truly have no thoughts all onto ourselves. Every thought has a connection to a thought another mind has had and we have absorbed it into our own and thusly pass it along to others who do the same.

An infant is not self aware until a certain age. That self awareness is wholly dependent on others and the infant's environment. The young child's thoughts are not entirely his own nor will they ever be...such is the nature of learning.

There can be no "I" without "you" or "them" or "those" etc...

The concept of free will...is a fallacy because we are all intertwined. Our opinions, thoughts, emotions etc are dependent completely on outside factors and other people to either substantiate them or dispel them or to expand them.

How can they not be?
Is this making sense?

We are what we learn and we learn what we are. None of my thoughts are 100% unique. Not one. neither are yours...

Hmmmm...

Originally posted by justgeneric
The concept of free will...is a fallacy because we are all intertwined.

You have free will to pick A, B, C, or D.

Free will is not a fallacy. Yes we are all intertwined. Free will is not a fallacy. Perhaps some just have no basis for comparison (consciously) to compare it to in their minds.

Our opinions, thoughts, emotions etc are dependent completely on outside factors and other people to either substantiate them or dispel them or to expand them.

We are what we learn and we learn what we are. None of my thoughts are 100% unique. Not one. neither are yours...

If no one on this planet has had 1 thought that was 100% unique, then humanity must have had someone interfere with our development.

either that or we are forced to believe that from 5,600 b.c. to 1902 a.d. (about 7,500 years) humanity utilized beast of burden (drawn carrages) to get from point A to point B. 1902 saw the mass production of the Model-T. 67 years later we are walking on the moon.

if we can not have unique thoughts, but technology begets technology, then how can we have a history of:
7,500 years from animal drawn cariages to mass production of the automobile
67 years from the automobile to the moon?

If I choose a, b, c, or d then I have not utilized free will. I have utilized your will. To choose is the choice which is not dependent on free will rather cognitive thought and some contemplation Choice is something other than free will. I'm not being difficult or dense

One man envisioned the car? All on his own...a single unique thought? Not a chance.

Many complained about the horses, the poop on the road, the ruts in the street, the travel time, the cost to maintain the cart and horse...ad nauseum infinitum...it was not one man who thought up the motor car, it was a collective thought added to by each until the motor car was developed. The IDEA is not unique. One man holds a patent for a completed product that took thousands of ideas, and formulas to BUILD on. His idea and his invention was not unique. It would have been impossible without collective thought. His idea was actually created not by his mind alone but by the input of others, the knowledge of others...he added a final piece...but not unique on it's own for on it's own it is nothing but a thought out of context.

A beach is a multitude of individual grains...unique in design perhaps but not unique in what they are and what they do and why they are there.
edited to add my wink which didn't show up...??


[edit on 12/2/2006 by justgeneric]

Originally posted by justgeneric
If I choose a, b, c, or d then I have not utilized free will. I have utilized your will.

It is utilizing my will to pick option "D"?

1. This is the result of:

a) Proof there is a God.
b) Proof there is a conspiracy
c) Proof there is a coincidence.
d) _______________________ (other) Please specify.

Is option "D" my will? It permits for you to not choose the other options, and to pick whatever option best suites you. but, if picking "no option" is better for you, then pick "i don't choose", and put it as another "(other)" and say you pick "E".

To choose is the choice which is not dependent on free will rather cognitive thought and some contemplation

Choice is something other than free will. I'm not being difficult or dense

I don't think you are being difficult or dense. I'm just asking a question, and presenting every option i saw available. If you see another option besides the 3 i supplied with the first question, put it at "D", but even if you choose not to make a choice, you exerted your free will by not choosing to answer the question.

even if you did not like question #1, there is always question #2.

True or False?

no. you don't have to pick either. you could say "maybe", and leave it at that. But, still a choice has been made to act or not act, to choose or not choose, and whatever the choice is that you have chosen, a choice has still been made, and evidently you had someone's will available to make that choice to choose or not to choose.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
...the decisions you have made that "perfected" your current "opinion" were possibly made years if not decades ago. and, now those decisions you made years or decades ago, is how you view the world. automatic responses of how to interpret reality is made by your subconsious mind, which recieves all incoming sensory stimulation, then regergitates what it is you choose to believe...

Of course it's taken years (& decades)...It takes time to contribute sufficient conscious thought to come to an understanding on why my subconscious reacts the way it does...
Unless it's escaped your notice, even trained psychologists take years merely to learn their trade...And years more to build up any experience at it. Even so, it must also be noted that the study of Psychology is (at least) hundreds of years old.
Self-examination does take time. Some people might use the term, "soul searching" for what I just described.

What I'd like to ask now is, "Why put this poll in ATS?" This thread does not indicate any inclusion of "conspiracy" within it...Also, it's more "philosophical" than "religious".
Yes, this thread starts that way by implying that there may be conspiracy involved, but there's no evidence, either implied or circumstantial, that indicates any real conspiracy exists. It seems that your real intention was for this to be a philosphical discussion instead.
ATS is for conspiracy (This particular topic is for conpiracies in religion), PTS for political discussion & BTS catches pretty much all other categories.
IMO, this particular thread would fit better in BTS, under the Philosophical topic.

Originally posted by justgeneric
We are what we learn and we learn what we are. None of my thoughts are 100% unique. Not one. neither are yours...

So far, I've never said that all my thoughts are 100% original...How could they be if the only way to express these thoughts have to be filtered through the limited concept of "written language" that's been developing & evolving through (continued) use by literally billions of other minds through time?
If you can follow that last statement, please explain it to me...I'm having a bit of trouble with it myself.

However, to address your other concerns...Free Will is the concept of being able to recognize that everything you experience is going to create an initial "gut reaction," subconsciously, but being able to recognize that means that you can consciously recognize what may illusion from what the true reality of that experience is. For a simple example: You've probably seen examples of "op art"...Optical illusions that seem to take place on a printed page if you look at it just right. Of course, your initial "gut reaction" is going to pump a little adreneline here another little hormone there & give you an initial (perhaps "excited" feeling) about what you see.
Free Will is using your conscious, intelligent capacity to recognize it as an illusion to your eyes, therefore you can understand the reality that underlies the illusion.

Another, somewhat more sophisticated, example (involving something with higher technology to create the illusion): Let's say that you consiously know that someone is going to show you an animated hologram, absolutely realistic, of a baseball being thrown right into your face. Of course, your sensual input & your "gut reaction" to that input would be to duck out of the way, evn though you know that there's nothing solid that can hurt you. But, you can still exercise your Free Will to ignore that gut reaction to duck & stand tall even as the illusion hits you...As long as you know what the reality is, you can choose to ignore the subconscoius reaction. Furthermore, if you know the truth & if you percieve that the hologram projector itself poses more of a threat than the holographic baseball does, you can use your baseball bat, find & smash the projector instead of swinging at the illusory baseball!
Therefore, Free Will does exist, but it takes an exercise of your mental capacity to apply your Free Will, because the human race has evolved through a few million years surviving by "gut instinct".

Those people that you've described as "scaring the bejeezuz" out of you...They're looking at the illusion that "conspirators" put up in their faces & reacting the same way you might if didn't didn't know that the baseball was a hologram. In other words, they may recognize that they're seeing lies & illusions, but still react as if it's reality & they duck out of the way: In short, they let their gut instinct lead them into the wrong direction, instead of confronting that which triggered the instinct. But some people, knowing that the lies & illusion are there, are trying to ignore that instinct to duck out of the way & learning how to fight against the more deadly & sinister truth lying under the illusion.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
But, still a choice has been made to act or not act, to choose or not choose, and whatever the choice is that you have chosen, a choice has still been made, and evidently you had someone's will available to make that choice to choose or not to choose.

Or, as the music group known as Rush has included in one of their songs, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

The main problem with the conspirators, is that they only present a limited number of choices to you...And they all suck. The only solution, therefore, is to make a choice that they haven't included in their presentation.

[edit on 3-12-2006 by MidnightDStroyer]

Midnight,

sorry, i only made it about a third through your post. Very articulate. I will read over it, and respond tomorrow, as i am at work, and on my way out the door right now.

i do have one response, althought your post is worth more thought, i am sure, here is something that stuck out for me, and i never really thought about it much:

What I'd like to ask now is, "Why put this poll in ATS?" This thread does not indicate any inclusion of "conspiracy" within it...Also, it's more "philosophical" than "religious".

Well, i put the poll on ATS, because i value the members' contributions, and their judgments and objections. I learn from them.

True, it is more "philisophical", and can see how you see that.

Is there a non-religious forum, but a forum directed towards "philosophy" on ATS? I already post most my stuff on BTS's Faith, Spirituality and Theology forum, which is the closest to "philosophy", i believe.

So far, I've never said that all my thoughts are 100% original...How could they be if the only way to express these thoughts have to be filtered through the limited concept of "written language" that's been developing & evolving through (continued) use by literally billions of other minds through time?
If you can follow that last statement, please explain it to me...I'm having a bit of trouble with it myself.

Oh I wasn't being accusational I was just verbalizing this little thought It is staggering really to consider the above. No one has a single 100% unique thought or idea...is this insulting? LOL I hope not...

The human ego demands that we be unique. That our thoughts and ideas be all our own creation and design. The fact is that from birth to death we learn about the world in hand me down fashion.

I have an issue with free will...clearly. I'll consider it a bit more before I mention it again There's a thought there that evades description at the moment.

Human kind's downfall is that we strive to disconnect from each other...we feed into this need and imposed idea that we must be unique in all ways possible. This is just my own personal belief and is not an absolute or concrete fact. The fact is that there is precious little that one can do/not do, that does not affect someone or something.

The advancements in our technology is proof that we MUST be connected in thought and action for there to be any advancement at all. One idea alone would never have gotten us anywhere...we evolve not as singular entities but as a collective.

As for this thread being placed here in this forum...where else could it go?

As usual I lost my train of thought...apologies. I did have a point. Somewhere...

Free will...see I knew my thoughts weren't original HA HA! It bothered me that I was having trouble describing it...this is it in a nut shell...Determinism :

(from WikiPedia)Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences. No wholly random, spontaneous, mysterious, or miraculous events occur, according to this philosophy.

Geez there's a label and category for everything

[edit on 12/3/2006 by justgeneric]

[edit on 12/3/2006 by justgeneric]