We're certainly not running out of farm land because of illegal immigrants, we're running out of farmland because it's impossible to make a profit and live comfortably on anything less than an enormous farm - so all the small farmers have given it up.

We're also running out of farm land because taxes have become outrageous, and people crave a more comfortable existence - two more problems, only one of which can be even be remotely connected to illegal immigrants.

I think we'd be just fine with either of the two following solutions.

Open up the borders and completely eliminate social programs designed to help the poor, including public schools and healthcare.

Or, we can lock the border down tight, keeping at least a 50 mile wide patch clear across the country from sea to sea. The land can be used for artillery training and USAF bombing runs. The reason I suggest this is because a wall will be easily defeated by tunnels.

Anyway, neither of those solutions are particularly pleasant, so I'll throw out one more.

Attempt to make up in efficiency what we lose to immigrants. If immigrants are costing the system x billion a year, we could attempt to offset those costs by trimming our expenditures (especially subsidies to wealthy individuals and companies) while re-evaluating our position in the world markets. We don't necessarily need to trade with the world at the expense of our own prosperity.

We've got some of the richest farmland in the world, and most of it is not being used, why? Because it's not profitable? Nuts to that. Why not rig the market to ensure more jobs, and a higher standard of living for American citizens? If you insure against competition from overseas, you can encourage an increase in production, a steady supply, and more reasonable costs all around, right?

Again, not a feel good solution, but it seems less offensive than the other two.

If we just react using law enforcement, we're going to end up spending ten times more NOT fixing the problem, than if we had just ignored it or done something meaningful to mitigate its impact or solve the problem.

Why spend a million bucks to fix a hundred dollar problem? Or in this case, why spend a trillion to fix a multi-billion dollar problem?

So, I don't think a reactionary policy using law enforcement is the way to go...

Other feasible suggestions that take into account both the complexity of the problem and the values that ostensibly define this nation?

Originally posted by rdang
Your numbers look real good on paper, but fact remains they are here illegally.

That, however, was not your initial contention. You were way out on the fringe and you were wrong. My numbers not only look good on paper, they are present in the world around you. Illegal immigrants are not even remotely near as much trouble as people who are SUPPOSED to be here. You contend that they are an "unncessary" drain. What makes one person less necessary than another? If you think this country would be better off with 20 million fewer people, lets decide who is "unnecessary" in an objective manner; we'll give everyone a battery of physical, mental, and medical tests, and get our country back to optimum population by killing those who are truly "least necessary".

America is in no position to complain about being overpopulated. When it comes right down to it, there are two possibilities: 1. You don't understand the circumstances or 2. Population pressure isn't what you're really concerned about.

Maybe you mistakenly believe that the labor market can't be kept fair through legislation rather than by exclusion.

Maybe you think that being foreign predisposes somebody to crime, making the crime problem insoluble. I tell you what, if I couldn't get a drivers license and didn't have access to any protection against exploitation by my employer, I'd become a criminal too.

You apparently believe that drugs and illegal immigration are inseparable problems- perhaps you think the immigrants are following the drugs. The only thing they have in common is that they are both against the law and are smuggled into the country. The border is not the only place to fight these problems and hence they can be separated.


Here's the problem for me.

Number 1, We're getting WAY to comfortable with pushing people out of the sphere of constitutional protection and human rights, we're getting comfortable with classifying people right out of the human race, and for all I know it'll be some group that I belong to one day, because I hold a lot of unpopular opinions and I practice my right to speak on them. When you take people who, right wrong or indifferent have been in this country for some time, worked hard, acquired property, and start talking like they weren't different from people who were intercepted either at sea or fresh off the boat coming from Cuba, you ignore some vital constitutional questions about property rights and due process which could set dangerous precedents.

Number 2, I think at this point immigration control is such a lost cause that the hardliners are actually standing in the way of their own ends. I'll give you an example.
You want immigrants who commit crimes to be deported, which is perfectly acceptable if due process is observed. But you also want all illegal immigrants gone. This results in sanctuary cities where immigration status can't be asked about, and when the LAPD snags an immigrant, illegal or otherwise, they can't ask about his status.
It might be time to start thinking in terms of fighting the battles that matter most and can be won. It might be time to agree that we can't kick people out who've made it in and established lives here, but that we insist on getting rid of the ones who commit crimes. We could probably get that.

Number 3, Although immigration is a legitimate policy discussion to have, it is a subject which draws a lot of over the top, right-wing fringe, ethno-nationalist nutjobs into the mainstream political debates. If America were ever to see it's own Hitler, we'd probably get him because of this subject. This causes me to really come down like a ton of bricks on right-wingers who can't discuss this subject in accurate, realistic, positive terms.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
rdang, a lot of crime attributed to illegal aliens is actually scapegoating
the united states has a history of scapegoating less-than-liked groups
remember all the rapes and murders that were attributed to african american males in the south?

i honestly think that they shouldn't be here illegally, but the problem is that the USA tries to keep to many people out

The US is not alone in "scapegoating". Every country does it.

As for keeping too many people out, that's BS. Check out how difficult it is to move to Australia, for example. And I support having some selection criteria. It is in our country's best interest to have skilled, educated people move here.

Originally posted by WyrdeOne
We're certainly not running out of farm land because of illegal immigrants, we're running out of farmland because it's impossible to make a profit and live comfortably on anything less than an enormous farm - so all the small farmers have given it up.

We're also running out of farm land because taxes have become outrageous, and people crave a more comfortable existence - two more problems, only one of which can be even be remotely connected to illegal immigrants.

I think he was referring to housing as opposed to farm land. At any rate, our nation is very efficient as far as agriculture.

Just a side note - it is true that large farms have squeezed out many of the smaller concerns in the nation's breadbasket, but that is not true across the country. Here in the northeast, for example, many supermarket chains buy from small local farms. Harvest time is a wonderful experience.

I think we'd be just fine with either of the two following solutions.

Open up the borders and completely eliminate social programs designed to help the poor, including public schools and healthcare.

Or, we can lock the border down tight, keeping at least a 50 mile wide patch clear across the country from sea to sea. The land can be used for artillery training and USAF bombing runs. The reason I suggest this is because a wall will be easily defeated by tunnels.

Your first suggestion was just you being facetious, wasn't it? Your second one actually has some merit. It could work, with some tweaking. But I don't think we need to be so Draconian just yet.

Anyway, neither of those solutions are particularly pleasant, so I'll throw out one more.

Attempt to make up in efficiency what we lose to immigrants. If immigrants are costing the system x billion a year, we could attempt to offset those costs by trimming our expenditures (especially subsidies to wealthy individuals and companies) while re-evaluating our position in the world markets. We don't necessarily need to trade with the world at the expense of our own prosperity.

We've got some of the richest farmland in the world, and most of it is not being used, why? Because it's not profitable? Nuts to that. Why not rig the market to ensure more jobs, and a higher standard of living for American citizens? If you insure against competition from overseas, you can encourage an increase in production, a steady supply, and more reasonable costs all around, right?

Again, not a feel good solution, but it seems less offensive than the other two.

Actually, I find this the least desirable solution because it promotes isolationism and puts private land under the control of the gov't. And if you rig the market, it's going to show up somehow, somewhere, like in the form of higher prices and/or wages.

If we just react using law enforcement, we're going to end up spending ten times more NOT fixing the problem, than if we had just ignored it or done something meaningful to mitigate its impact or solve the problem.

It's never been seriously tried, so we can't say it will fail. And before someone tries to compare it to the War on Drugs, they don't compare.

So, I don't think a reactionary policy using law enforcement is the way to go...

That's part of the problem; we've always been reacting to the problem instead of being pro-active with a comprehensive plan.

I'm glad to see that the topic of this thread is back on track.

Here in Arizona the situation is worsening.

I forget the exact figures, and don't have a link, but in my home county of Maricopa, approximately 60% of all arrests are illegal mexican aliens - those are arrests that are nothing to do with the illegal act of immigration itself, i.e. for robbery, violence etc

The myth of the honest, decent Mexican is just that, a myth. They come here penniless and see all the BMWs and expensive houses and start stealing. It's a lot more lucrative than washing cars or mowing lawns.

I'm sorry if this offends anyone, but I live here and see it every day, these people are criminals when they enter the country illegally, and they just carry on from there.

Originally posted by Retseh
The myth of the honest, decent Mexican is just that, a myth.

If that's all you see, you don't get out enough. I tutor at a community college. Several of my students are came here illegally and several others are the citizen children of illegals.
You claim to see illegals committing crimes left and right- how many have you actually witnessed? Are you just taking somebody else's word for it in large part? I've already demonstrated earlier in this thread that when you do that, you will often be decieved by people who cite the number of hispanics in jail as being the number of illegals in jail.
What I actually witness is people who came into this country illegally who work 40 hours a week and still find time to carry 15 college credits because they want to work their way up and earn a good home and a good future for their family.

You can't steal a house, you can't steal a diploma or a degree, and you can't steal a stable future. The people who want those things aren't coming here to steal. They are coming here because our society makes greater attempts to offer a fair shot at those things than Mexico does, and because there are better opportunities to work for those things here.

I have some things to handle right now because I'm in the market for a new truck, but I'll be back in a while to get a little deeper into this, including statistics from Maricopa County. So far, I'm seeing indications that the Maricopa county jails have a 10% illegal population, not 60%, and that is counting those brought in on conspiracy charges for human smuggling.

Meanwhile, you left out the number of car accidents caused by non-immigrants that kill people, over 10,000 people yearly. You left out how many people are shot in the USA and most of them are non-immigrant related, over 30,000. Smoking kills over 40,000 yearly, that is corporate, not immigrant. Oh and the rash amount of crime we have all over the USA, you fail to see the following:
Crime in one area reflects the main body of people living in the area, such as Arizona which is Spanshi, New Mexico which is mostly Native American. Go to the EAST COAST you get white and black theft, north, white, WEST, asian. When they come here they have nothing to begin with and nothing back in Mexico thus they come here. If you want to stop crime, improve living standards, if you want to stop gang warfare, treat society with dignity and crack down on gangs for once.

As with most Liberal apologists, you only ever criticize the decisions of others and never put forward workable suggestions of your own.

So what would YOU do about illegal immigration, can you even bring your Tofu befuddled brain to call these people illegal aliens, or do you resort to such euphemisms as undocumented workers.

Let me take a wild stab here and guess that you support a total amnesty for current illegal aliens, and an unrestricted guest worker program for those who want to come here.

You probably also support their "right" to receive free medical aid, schooling for their pups, and social security for their old.

You doubtless regard those who oppose such measures as bigots and racists - especially groups like the Minutemen.

You also make no comment about the evidence I provided about levels of Mexican crime in my county, predicatably choosing to ignore it. So although it seems pointless to provide additional evidence, since you are clearly unable to counter it with any meaningful responses, I will continue to do in the hope of informing the more open minded.

It is amusing that you mention gang violence, since in the Southwest of the USA gang violence equals Mexicans.

“In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens,” reported a blistering Winter 2004 City Journal exposé entitled “The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave.” City Journal also noted: “up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.”

In southern California, “a confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang … is illegal.” These gang members collaborate with the Mexican Mafia “on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations,” committing an “assault or robbery” in L.A. County every day. A 1996 Los Angeles Times report on the 18th Street Gang “included descriptions of innocent bystanders being murdered by laughing cholos (gang members).”

How about the Healthcare crisis the Mexicans cause:

According to a December 12, 2002 Washington Times report, “the Southeast Arizona Medical Center in Douglas is on the verge of bankruptcy because of uncompensated care to undocumented aliens; the Cochise County Health Department spends as much as 30 percent of its annual $9 million budget on illegal aliens; and the Copper Queen Hospital in Bisbee was hit for $200,000 in uncompensated services out of a net operating income of $300,000.” Additionally, “the University Medical Center in Tucson, Arizona, faces up to $10 million this year ‘in uncompensated care to foreign nationals,’ and the Good Samaritan Regional Medical Center in the city lost $1 million treating illegal immigrants in the first quarter of fiscal 2002.”

The problem is not limited to Arizona. The Brownsville (Texas) Medical Center estimated its losses caused by unpaid illegal immigrant ER bills at $500,000 per month, and Thomason Hospital in El Paso reported over $1 million in losses over a three-month period. Several hospitals in California have closed due to insolvency, reducing services and increasing medical costs for everybody in the region — with even more closures looming on the horizon throughout the state and elsewhere.


Too much evidence for you maybe, are any of these facts penetrating your socialist brain?


[edit on 7-1-2007 by Retseh]

Originally posted by Retseh
So what would YOU do about illegal immigration, can you even bring your Tofu befuddled brain to call these people illegal aliens, or do you resort to such euphemisms as undocumented workers.

insulting vagabond and other liberals?
how mature

You probably also support their "right" to receive free medical aid, schooling for their pups, and social security for their old.

isn't health care a right to all people?
why shouldn't EVERYONE get free medical aid?

You doubtless regard those who oppose such measures as bigots and racists - especially groups like the Minutemen.

well, the minutemen is obviously a group of racists, i saw one of their meetings and they saying chants that included racial slurs

You also make no comment about the evidence I provided about levels of Mexican crime in my county, predicatably choosing to ignore it. So I will avoid providing additional evidence, since you are clearly unable to counter it with any meaningful responses.

are you blind or just ignoring what vagabond said
he pointed out that there's no direct corrolation between crime and illegal populations by providing evidence from his own county and using simple math to find that, though he has double a percentage of foreign borns there's only 15% more crime

and you provided evidence about 1 man at a certain point...

You'll have to apologize for my tardiness. A computer error wiped out my first attempt at a response. This one is going to be a quickie because I am not going to engage in an argument over your ridiculous tactic of claiming that I did not address points which I have in fact addressed. Anyone who reads this thread will see that you are simply choosing to ignore that which you do not want to hear.

First things first, I’m not your typical liberal. I straddle the line rather unpredictably (although I generally follow some pretty predictable principles, I still seem to surprise people). I consider myself a liberal by conservative means. That is to say that I believe in fiscal responsibility, personal responsibility, and the sovereignty of America, but I believe that preserving these principles and others does not require that I disown logic by denying the obvious value and/or necessity of certain humane/socially responsible programs or policies which are generally considered liberal. In short, we can get the decent liberal thing done by sound conservative means. I’m not the whacko that O’Reilly has been warning you about.

I call them illegal immigrants, not illegal aliens, not undocumented workers. That is the problem after all. The problem is not that they are alien, in the foreign sense; this nation has profited culturally from its diversity. The problem is merely the strains created by an influx of people and I use the term that describes that problem, because it best suits a discussion of how to address that problem, unlike illegal alien, which best suits xenophobia.

Speaking of fear of the unknown, I’ve never tried tofu and I probably never will, but it does not befuddle me.

Back to the topic now, I don’t support free medical aid. I support purchased medical aid, and that’s something that even many natural born citizens can’t accomplish because our policy makers have not yet surrendered the ideological entrenchment that special interests require from them and moved toward the middle to seriously plan and build an economically viable social health care plan that ensures that the shortcomings of our successful but imperfect capitalist system do not create a society in which a person who contributes to our economy’s ability to produce the necessities of life is not denied the necessities of life himself.

I do not support an unrestricted guest worker program. I believe that employers should be restricted in their ability to exploit workers, and that when foreign and citizen workers are placed on a level field that the marketplace will naturally limit the demand for foreign workers, thus discouraging any excess in immigration, legal or otherwise- an optimal solution.

I do not support unrestricted amnesty but I acknowledge the clear impossibility of removing them and thus I believe that there must be a path to citizenship available for those who are already here, but which requires proof of long term contribution on their part, thus shoring up the above described market check by making it clear that if there isn’t a market for you here, there won’t be an amnesty that lets you onto the dole until there is a market.

I believe that every tax payer has a right to send their children to school. That isn’t free. All that need be done then is enforce our tax laws on employers.

Social security is not free. You have to pay in sufficiently to earn your credits. Your question in this regard betrays ignorance on the subject.

I do not believe that all opponents of immigration are bigots but I know that many bigots are also opponents of illegal immigration. The test of bigotry is quite simple. If one has arrived at his views reasonably, even by flawed reason, so be it. If one has reached a snap decision, especially driven by fear rather than reason, he is a bigot.

I have countered you with statistics and I will not engage you further in substantial depth on issues I have addressed until you respond. If you are quite certain that I have lost my head into some unsavory place, we can have a judged debate in the H2H forum where a neutral party can discern who is ignoring evidence. All you need to is accept that challenge and I’ll see if we can arrange a judged debate. You should probably read what MadnessinmySoul posted before you accept that challenge though.

I will briefly note however that your supposed support for the claim that gang violence equals Mexicans is entirely flawed since it cites outstanding warrants rather than total criminal activity. Of course most outstanding warrants are for illegals. That is because for lack of identifying documents they are hard to identify before release, and they have the right to enter and stay in Mexico when the US becomes unsafe for them. This is a problem that can and must be addressed, but which can be addressed far short of mass deportations, and it is hardly evidence that crime in the US is for the most part a result of illegal immigration.

Originally posted by Retseh
Too much evidence for you maybe, are any of these facts penetrating your socialist brain?

What evidence? All I see so far is evidence that the United States is exceedingly foolish to require hospitals to care for people in emergency situations while not having a plan to pay for it. That’s half our fault. The rest of your “evidence” was patently absurd.

As for socialism, yes I believe that capitalism can and should borrow ideas from socialism in industries which fail to meet their purposes under pure capitalism. You don’t have to be afraid of me because of that; I haven’t got any nuclear weapons in Cuba.

OK, so I was lying my butt off about being brief. My dad was from the windy city, what do you expect?