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Word on the street.....

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posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 09:24 PM
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Here's an article describing the use of microphones on CCTV cameras, which has been a highly controversial topic. The microphones, allegedly, are supposed to be able to listen to conversations up to 100yds away! Being used in Holland, a thought-to-be good idea for London, what's next? America!?
 



www.timesonline.co.uk
POLICE and councils are considering monitoring conversations in the street using high-powered microphones attached to CCTV cameras, write Steven Swinford and Nicola Smith.

The microphones can detect conversations 100 yards away and record aggressive exchanges before they become violent.

The devices are used at 300 sites in Holland and police, councils and transport officials in London have shown an interest in installing them before the 2012 Olympics.

The interest in the equipment comes amid growing concern that Britain is becoming a “surveillance society”. It was recently highlighted that there are more than 4.2m CCTV cameras, with the average person being filmed more than 300 times a day. The addition of microphones would take surveillance into uncharted territory.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


This news article discusses events taking place in Holland, but officials in London think it's a good idea.

I don't think the CCTV's should be used IMO, because I feel it to be a violation of your 4th Amendment rights. That can be discussed all day long, as it has been, and now they want to add a microphone to it!

If this isn't completely out and out a "control" issue, I don't know what is!




posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 12:36 AM
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Originally posted by "submission"
Being used in Holland, a thought-to-be good idea for London, what's next? America!?


Or maybe... "what's next? (insert county of choice
)!?"


Originally posted by "submission"
I don't think the CCTV's should be used IMO, because I feel it to be a violation of your 4th Amendment rights.


Terrific, and you are correct if you happen to live in the US and if they were placed in your home, but have you been to the mall lately?


Originally posted by "submission"
That can be discussed all day long, as it has been, and now they want to add a microphone to it!


"they" = Holland's government. BTW, does anyone know what sort of privacy laws they have over there? Thanks.


Originally posted by "submission"
If this isn't completely out and out a "control" issue, I don't know what is!


Me neither.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:54 AM
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I thought CCTV was already being used in London. Isn't that how they got all those images of the 7/7 bombers?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 02:26 AM
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CCTV are already in use in the USA and in UK. Hell, they are even used here in Canada. Microphones are already in New York streets and UK. It was in the news not long ago, can't find a link for now.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 07:26 AM
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I have mixed feelings on this. I could see the benefit of their use at a special event, like the Olympics. As far as CCTV in general, I support them because a person has no reasonable expectation of privacy while in public.

As far as the capability of recording conversations, this could be a sticky area. Some US states prohibit recording conversations without notifying the parties that they are being recorded.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 07:37 AM
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He he

1984. George Orwell.

Its all being played out.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 08:22 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
"they" = Holland's government. BTW, does anyone know what sort of privacy laws they have over there? Thanks.


This topic was not posted in reference to Holland's privacy laws. Yes, everyone knows and agrees that every nation is different.


The devices are used at 300 sites in Holland and police, councils and transport officials in London have shown an interest in installing them before the 2012 Olympics.

The interest in the equipment comes amid growing concern that Britain is becoming a “surveillance society”. It was recently highlighted that there are more than 4.2m CCTV cameras, with the average person being filmed more than 300 times a day. The addition of microphones would take surveillance into uncharted territory.


This exert tells me that the microphones have not been in service in London, but only an idea. I do not live in London, so could someone verify for us whether or not the microphones are being currently used?

As far as the importance of the article, to me, is I live in the US, and I for one would hate to see the implementation of the microphone. It is an absurd idea that many "big brother society" supporters enjoy. Me, being a "free" person, do not like the idea of being watched whenever "big brother" wants... nor would I like the idea of someone listening in to what I have to say.

www.abovetopsecret.com... - Not attempting to be misleading, but here's my link about the cameras being used in America.


As I said in my original post here, we can debate it all day long of whether or not it's infringing our 4th Amendment right or not. It hasn't been proven one way or another yet, but is a very viable argument. As far as I stand, and many people would agree, the United States Government has "zero" right to track it's people. Using a microphone to "oversee" what "the people" are talking about is, IMO, tracking. It is a control issue, plain and simple.

If/when the idea of the microphone enhanced CCTV comes to the US, I for one will vote "no", and protest on it's use.

[edit on 11/27/2006 by Infoholic]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:22 AM
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Originally posted by Infoholic
If/when the idea of the microphone enhanced CCTV comes to the US, I for one will vote "no", and protest on it's use.


Fantastic, and if/when that day comes let me know will ya? Until then what is the point of the comments below?


Originally posted by Infoholic
As far as the importance of the article, to me, is I live in the US, and I for one would hate to see the implementation of the microphone.



Originally posted by Infoholic
As far as I stand, and many people would agree, the United States Government has "zero" right to track it's people.


Trying to make an issue where there isn't one?

So, about those Dutch privacy laws again...

[edit on 27-11-2006 by WestPoint23]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 10:00 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Trying to make an issue where there isn't one?

So, about those Dutch privacy laws again...


A non-existent issue, eh?

Are you ignorant enough to believe that what is tried elsewhere would not make it here? Kind of like the idea of CCTV will/won't can/can't be used here, today, "but have you been to the mall lately?"

The CCTV system was implemented in the UK before it showed up here, I believe? Correct me if I am wrong. The UK is already known for it's growing concern that Britain is becoming a “surveillance society”.

Are we supposed to wait around until the CCTV in America or London is enhanced with the microphones, before we start to discuss it? Are we supposed to wait until every ounce of privacy is stripped from us before we attempt to educate?

What is your point on the non-existent issue?

The Constitution for the Kingdom of the Netherlands - In case you're still wondering.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 10:27 AM
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If the benefits from preventing minimal brawls are compared to the potential of abusing surveillance/control mechanisms I'd say it does not pay out for us citizens.

Same goes for the "threat" of terrorism compared to security and protection. Anyone who still believes that the derailed administration or powerful, decisive people really care about the lives/health of the regular citizen should think about it.

What sounds more reasonable? - Protecting the little man or guaranteeing private profit through countrol and power?

Once again I'd say: Nice gimmicks, cool features... but I dont want or need them. Thanks



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:39 AM
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A little something extra to bring to the discussion. (and yes, I understand it's not in the US *yet*)

Blunkett fear over street surveillance




Former Home Secretary David Blunkett last night spoke out against reported plans to eavesdrop on the public using microphones alongside CCTV cameras.
The Sunday Times said police and councils were considering monitoring conversations in the street, looking at devices currently used in the Netherlands.
Mr Blunkett, MP for Sheffield Brightside, said that the idea was "smacked of the "surveillance state".
"As you walk down the street you expect to be able to have a private conversation," he said.
27 November 2006


source

Who is David Blunkett



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 03:01 PM
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I don't object to CCTV. If a crime is committed, you have an infallible witness with the images to use in court etc.

But listening to conversations? That's going to far. I'll be dusting off my Guy Fawkes mask and rolling out the gunpowder kegs if that happens.

Anyone remember the article about putting loudspeakers on CCTV camera's as well? Now, if they combined all 3, that would be a scary thing to behold. You could be arguing with your mate over who's football team is better and some numpty in the CCTV monitoring place could chime in "well, I think your both wrong...."...


[edit on 27/11/06 by stumason]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by Infoholic
Are you ignorant enough to believe that what is tried elsewhere would not make it here?


Everything is possible, but not everything is probable, so why again are you attempting to make this a US issue? You've been trying to push that topic from post one. Should we start to discuss possible flogging in the US since it is already practiced in Indonesia?


Originally posted by Infoholic
Kind of like the idea of CCTV will/won't can/can't be used here, today, "but have you been to the mall lately?"


Kind of like, nothing is wrong with CCTV's in public areas? As such I don't see why it would come as a big shock that cameras /were/are used in the US.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 06:13 PM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Everything is possible, but not everything is probable, so why again are you attempting to make this a US issue? You've been trying to push that topic from post one. Should we start to discuss possible flogging in the US since it is already practiced in Indonesia?
Yes, I did mentioned the idea that it could end up coming to America, however, I posted in reference to London looking into the microphones, initially.

I agree, everything is possible, but not everything is probable. Seeing as there are so many other issues that tend to lean towards the "surveilance" issue, I feel this one falls in line... and I feel whole heartedly that it's only a matter of time until the current CCTV's in America are fitted with the same microphone technology that London appears to be interested in. It's called trending.

If you want to discuss flogging in the US, by all means start a thread.



Originally posted by WestPoint23
Kind of like, nothing is wrong with CCTV's in public areas? As such I don't see why it would come as a big shock that cameras /were/are used in the US.


Your opinion is there's nothing wrong with the CCTV's. My opinion is CCTV's are wrong. I am fully aware that the CCTV has not been proven to be against the 4th Amendment, but as I've stated, it makes a very viable argument. There are just as many people that feel it's good to have the cameras, as there are just as many that don't like the idea.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 06:30 PM
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They have the TV, Cable, Telephone and Internet covered, so the street is probably their last frontier.


apc

posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 06:50 PM
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You have no expectation of privacy in public. Hence the name... These types of systems are perfectly legal and don't even begin to threaten the 4th Amendment.

Nerds like me grew up concerned about being monitored because of our activities. Now everyone else gets to share in that concern. Get used to it.


CX

posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 03:28 AM
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Whilst i think this another step for Big Brother and maybe a bit much for the general public, for people to think this has'nt been used before might be a little naive.

Individuals within communities have been watched for various reasons over the years, often due to terrorism related investigations. There are a lot of places you don't know that are riddled with cams and microphones, ok they are to intercept specific individuals but if you are within range then you are going to get listened to.

Become a Conlanger, thats one answer!

CX.



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 03:45 AM
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My only complaint is that all these CCTV cameras are in public places and paid for with public dollars.

Therefore, I should be able sit at home and watch them on my TV.



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 04:04 AM
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So you want to be like in URSS? Like when you weren't able to speak your mind on the government because you feared that if someone heard you, you would be arrested?

Freedom of speech and freedom of privacy are inelienable rights and those who support this stupidity deserve it, and deserve to drink their own medecine one day or another. When you accept totalitarians things like that, you don't think of the backslash of such things and you probably think that fascism/authoritarism can't happen to you... well the germans thought the same thing in the 30s.

Would have the creation of the US possible with such things? No.

[edit on 28-11-2006 by Vitchilo]



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 06:53 AM
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This thread makes me laugh.

To the person who said that CCTV was "how they got all the images of the London Bombers", I would say, go and do some checking and see how many images you can turn up.

Then see how many of them look fake. One has a mysterious stretch of dry pavement on a wet day, in another you can see a fence through one of the bomber's arms...

There should have been many, many images. Only a handful were released, and they look faked.

The other issue that this thread so far fails to address is that of "function creep". This means that if the technology exists to do something - in this instance, to record all the conversations picked up by the microphones - then the justification to do just that will be found.

Once that happens, automatic search software just like that developed for Echelon and other monitoring programs will be able to pick out any specified keywords. How long until voiceprint analysis is added? Not long, I think, considering that the Total Information Awareness project (not abandoned, just renamed) wanted to integrate advanced biometric analysis (face and gait recognition) into the CCTV monitoring systems.

How long after that will people start being picked up for "seditious behaviour" at the drop of a hat? And should anyone in power wish to fake evidence of such seditious behaviour, the technology to do that is here. There are already voice emulation programs available to the security agencies.

And so the water gets a little hotter, and the frogs start feeling strangely listless...



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