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Agnostic Masons...

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posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:24 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
Right why not change the oaths if the oaths are out dated? If you can go around and divulge the secrets of masonry with out any penalties why not divulge? I would. If these are indeed "empty oaths" why even do them? Just to be part of the "club." Sorry I gave up stupid handshakes and passwords to club house when I was 8.


So why even take the oaths of secrecy if thiers no real reason?

The oaths are symbolic. How can you trust a man if he can't keep a simple promise? The wording of the oaths and the modes of recognition are traditional, and have changed very little over hundreds of years. There is something very special about taking part in activities that have not changed much since before America was born, that our fathers and forefathers took pleasure in and that promotes timeless values that most right-thinking people can subscribe to.

If my keeping alive ancient traditions makes you laugh, then fine, but in context freemasonry makes a powerful statement to the individual, and many people will attest to that.




posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:25 PM
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Originally posted by an3rkist
Although Beethoven is not a confirmed Mason, Masons still claim him as a member because all the evidence points towards him being a Mason. How could he have ever become a Mason if this quote is true?


Ludwig van Beethoven (1770 - 1827) was raised
Catholic but quit the church and adopted Goethe's
Pantheism -- the belief that "god" is the same as the
forces and laws of nature. Although a lifelong
atheist, on his death bed, he yielded to Catholic
friends and let a priest administer the sacraments.
When the priest left, Beethoven quoted the Latin
words from the ancient Roman theater, "Applaud,
my friends, the comedy is over."


Why do Masons lay claim to his membership if he was an atheist?








Neither Beethoven nor Goethe were atheists.

They just denied the foolish A-gnostic dogma of the Roman Church!





Our Divine Mother


When the superior emotional center really works, the thinking process ceases even if it is only for a brief period...


Beethoven's music especially is extraordinary in making the superior emotional center vibrate intensely.

In it, the sincere Gnostic finds an immense field of mystical exploration because it is not music of the form but rather of ineffable archetypal ideas; each note has its significance; each silence, a superior emotion.


Instead of failing like many aspirants when he felt so cruelly the rigors and tests of the "spiritual night", Beethoven opened the eyes of his intuition to mysterious supernaturalism, to the spiritual aspect of nature, to that region where the angelic kings of this great universal creation, Tlaloc, Ehecatl, Huehueteotl, etc. live.

See the "musician-philosopher" throughout his exemplary existence. Upon his work table he constantly had within view his Divine Mother Kundalini, the ineffable Neith, the Tonantzin of Anahuac, the supreme Egyptian Isis.

We have been told that the mentioned great master had placed at the foot of that adorable figure, a inscription in his own handwriting that mysteriously read:


"I am she who has been, is and shall be,
and no mortal hath ever me unveiled."


Inner revolutionary progress becomes impossible without the immediate help of our Divine Mother Tonantzin.

Every grateful son should love his mother; Beethoven dearly loved his own.



Outside of the physical body, during the hours of sleep, the soul should converse with its Divine Mother; however, it is evident that we should begin with the discipline of dream yoga.


From the book "The Secret Doctrine of Anahuac"
by Samael Aun Weor




And:



Gnosis: The Science of Mysticism





“That children do not know the reason of their desires, all the learned teachers and instructors agree. But that grownups too stumble like children on this earth, not knowing whence they come or whither they go, acting as little according to true purposes, being ruled by cakes and birch rods, no one likes to believe; yet to me it seems quite obvious.

Let us watch man in his limited sphere and see how Impressions affect him, how he is obsessed by ideas, until finally growing passion robs him of any possible calmness of Mind and becomes his ruin.” –Johannes von Goethe (excerpts from “The Sorrows of Young Werther”)







There we have the correct view regarding these Masters.






[edit on 27-11-2006 by Tamahu]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:33 PM
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Originally posted by an3rkist
But how's about we let the Good Book speak for itself:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)


Yes, let's let it:


Isaiah 45:1-7 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Isaiah 45

1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains [a] ;
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.


Looks like God was talking to Cyrus, that he was going to aid him in benefiting his chosen people. NOT that he created evil. It's pretty easy to pick and choose scripture BUT when you look at the whole, MY, what a different picture we get. Mind you, my religious days are decades in the past, so I may be wrong.


[edit on 27-11-2006 by intrepid]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:36 PM
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I guess the actual religious beliefs of Beethoven are a bit foggy at best. He was hostile towards organized religion and some say he was suspicious of mystical religions. He dabbled in Hinduism a bit, but just a bit. On his deathbed, his friend Joseph Haydn claimed that Beethoven was an atheist as he tried to convince the dying man to allow a priest to perform the last rites. Whatever.



Originally posted by intrepid
Looks like God was talking to Cyrus, that he was going to aid him in benefiting his chosen people. NOT that he created evil. It's pretty easy to pick and choose scripture BUT when you look at the whole, MY, what a different picture we get. Mind you, my religious days are decades in the past, so I may be wrong.


Hmmm, I suck at interpreting scriptures. I have no idea how the previous verses make my statement untrue, but I'll take your word for it. That still doesn't change the fact that by saying God didn't create problems that you're taking away his omnipotence.

[edit on 27/11/06 by an3rkist]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:57 PM
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an3rkist you were using the KJV of the bible for your verses right? Intrept is using NIV which is a little diffrent then the KJV.

The oaths are symbolic. How can you trust a man if he can't keep a simple promise? The wording of the oaths and the modes of recognition are traditional, and have changed very little over hundreds of years. There is something very special about taking part in activities that have not changed much since before America was born, that our fathers and forefathers took pleasure in and that promotes timeless values that most right-thinking people can subscribe to.

If my keeping alive ancient traditions makes you laugh, then fine, but in context freemasonry makes a powerful statement to the individual, and many people will attest to that.

I only trust one man T. and that's god and no one else. Just because the forfathers took the pleasure of something doesn't mean I agree with it though. The right-thinking people...depends your right and my right may be two different things. Doesn't mean we can't be friends though.

If my laughing has offended you seriously sorry. I shouldn't have done that sorry

You seem like a cool cat and I like talking to ok.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
an3rkist you were using the KJV of the bible for your verses right? Intrept is using NIV which is a little diffrent then the KJV.


Oh okay. I'm not sure if the difference...makes a difference, but whatever.
I used the King James Version because I'm pretty sure that's the one Masons tend to use most often, but I could be wrong.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 05:12 PM
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Look around the net there are many web sites that explain some of the differences between the too. I don't think Intrept is a mason. I think he's J.H.W. I could be wrong.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Andy Warhol]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 05:13 PM
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Cool, KJV it is, though I'm a little leary of any book commissioned by a monarch. They'll tell him what they think he wants to hear:


Isaiah 45: 1-7:

1Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

2I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

3And I will give thee the treasures of darkness, and hidden riches of secret places, that thou mayest know that I, the LORD, which call thee by thy name, am the God of Israel.

4For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

5I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

6That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

7I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


It's still god giving a covenant to Cyrus to aid and protect him to benefit his chosen people.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by intrepid]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 05:24 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid
It's still god giving a covenant to Cyrus to aid and protect him to benefit his chosen people.


And I still fail to see how that undoes the fact that God is saying he created everything, including evil. But like I said before, I'm pretty retarded when it comes to unraveling the abundant mysteries of each and every verse in the Bible. So what about the other verse I referenced?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 05:54 PM
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Originally posted by an3rkist
But like I said before, I'm pretty retarded when it comes to unraveling the abundant mysteries of each and every verse in the Bible. So what about the other verse I referenced?


Amos? OK, KJV:


1 Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying:
2 “ You only have I known of all the families of the earth;
Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.”
3 Can two walk together, unless they are agreed?
4 Will a lion roar in the forest, when he has no prey?
Will a young lion cry out of his den, if he has caught nothing?
5 Will a bird fall into a snare on the earth, where there is no trap for it?
Will a snare spring up from the earth, if it has caught nothing at all?
6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid?
If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?
7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing,
Unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.


Again, this is talking about relations between god and his chosen people. Are we going to tear apart scripture all night or are you going to reaffirm this: "But like I said before, I'm pretty retarded when it comes to unraveling the abundant mysteries of each and every verse in the Bible."

Let's make it easy, here a verse from the NT:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 05:57 PM
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Yeah, I don't know why I ever try to use scriptures as my arguments when I don't even believe in the Bible. I guess it's because when it comes to people who are using it as their basis for their own arguments it's the only possible avenue...fight fire with fire, ya know? But yeah this thread has gone completely off topic. I hardly even remember what the topic was but I'm gonna go back to it right...NOW.

So I guess I got what I wanted from this thread anyway: an3rkist cannot become a Mason. Period. It's probably better that way, aprons were so last century.

[edit on 27/11/06 by an3rkist]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:59 PM
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Originally posted by intrepid

Originally posted by an3rkist
But how's about we let the Good Book speak for itself:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)


Yes, let's let it:


Isaiah 45:1-7 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
[NIV at IBS] [International Bible Society] [NIV at Zondervan] [Zondervan]

Isaiah 45

1 "This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:

2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains [a] ;
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.

3 I will give you the treasures of darkness,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.

4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.

5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,

6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
men may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.


Looks like God was talking to Cyrus, that he was going to aid him in benefiting his chosen people. NOT that he created evil. It's pretty easy to pick and choose scripture BUT when you look at the whole, MY, what a different picture we get. Mind you, my religious days are decades in the past, so I may be wrong.


[edit on 27-11-2006 by intrepid]


I would expect someone like your self would understand all bibles are different.

The New International Version is just that, a new version of the old King James Version, which is different then the originals before that, and all are different then the dogmas that where before Church decided to hold a convention to choose which books would be in the bible and then translated from Greek hastily into Latin in an incredibly short amount of time.. loosing a lot of it's value. But. Like you say, it is easy to pick and choose scripture as when it is applied to any subject can be manipulated to convey your own intentions.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:36 PM
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Originally posted by Andy Warhol
I only trust one man T. and that's god and no one else. Just because the forfathers took the pleasure of something doesn't mean I agree with it though. The right-thinking people...depends your right and my right may be two different things. Doesn't mean we can't be friends though.

As a practicing Christian myself I suspect my 'right' and your 'right' would be pretty similar. As I was asked during my initiation - In whom do you put your trust?. In God.


If my laughing has offended you seriously sorry. I shouldn't have done that sorry
.
No worries - I'm not offended at all. As you can probably imagine I get worse here
. A lot of what freemasons get up to must seem very strange to non-masons - it's all about context.



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by an3rkist

Originally posted by umwolves123
NO, this is strictly forbiddin...you must believe in a supreme "being".

What your talking about is a theory. see we make sure you believe in a supreme being so that your vows and obligations have MEANING to you when you call your "being" to be your wittness.

Sorry but a theory doesnt cut it, you must believe in a supreme being.


So in other words, the whole point behind the necessity of believing in a Supreme Being is so that when the individual makes his promises to not divulge the secrets of Freemasonry, he makes them to what he believes is an actual being who can punish said individual? In other words, it's nothing more than a scare tactic! The Masons couldn't care less if a person believes in god or not, they just want to make sure the person believes that if he breaks his promise that he'll be punished! Wow, I'm starting to lose a little respect for the Masons. I'm sorry, but this is the kind of thing a terrorist organization would do. You're instilling fear in members of your organization so that they don't make their own decisions. I respect what the Masons advertise as their values and goals, but this little piece of information is a major sore spot on the Masonic organzation. I was asking this question out of curiosity, and in doing so I've uncovered a juicy piece of information that lends credit to all the conspiracy theorists who make "crazy" claims about the Masons. The Masonsd may not be trying to take over the world, but they're definitely an organization who has WAY too much control over their members. No wonder Masons are so hesitant to talk about the "brotherhood"! They're scared! The Masons made sure that every member is scared of his own "Supreme Being"! Wow, you're starting to lose credit Masons...I'm sorry.



I NEVER said anything about a scare tactic at all. there's nothing about being punished by your god at all. it's so your promise has meaning. has nothing to do with scareing at all.

to the person who said agnostics believe in god but dont follow "christ" that would be jewish buddy. The defenition of Agnostic is someone who denies the beliefe of a supreme being.



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by umwolves123
The defenition of Agnostic is someone who denies the beliefe of a supreme being.


Not at all. It's someone who denies it is possible to know whether there is a supreme being or not.

There are many different kinds of agnostics as well, I would consider myself a spiritual agnostic....


Agnostic spiritualism—the view that there may or may not be a God(s), while maintaining a general personal belief in a spiritual aspect of reality, particularly without distinct religious basis, or adherence to any established doctrine or dogma.

en.wikipedia.org...



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 02:35 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
There are many different kinds of agnostics as well, I would consider myself a spiritual agnostic....


Agreed. Most agnostics seprate themselves into two categories: Agnostic-theist, or agnostic-atheist. I am an agnostic-atheist. I believe God is a possibility, but I highly doubt it and will not believe until I have proof. Agnostic-theists don't "know" there's a God. Their pretty sure there is, but they want more proof. Agnosticism is a very grey area and chanes are that every agnostic believes a little differently than every other agnostic.



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 03:39 PM
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There is nothing in Masonry that would exclude a Pantheist. Indeed, quite a few Pantheists have been Freemasons, including the abovementioned Goethe.

However, pantheism and agnosticism aren't the same thing.



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 03:59 PM
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Originally posted by Masonic Light
However, pantheism and agnosticism aren't the same thing.


There are many variations of both....

I am spiritual, but not religious, I consider myself agnostic although I guess I could also be labeled under the pantheism umbrella, but naturalistic not biblical. So, in the case of a pantheist becoming a mason, who would the oath be directed to, nature?

[edit on 28-11-2006 by 27jd]



posted on Nov, 28 2006 @ 06:50 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by Masonic Light
However, pantheism and agnosticism aren't the same thing.


There are many variations of both....

I am spiritual, but not religious, I consider myself agnostic although I guess I could also be labeled under the pantheism umbrella, but naturalistic not biblical. So, in the case of a pantheist becoming a mason, who would the oath be directed to, nature?

[edit on 28-11-2006 by 27jd]


God, as you understand him/her/it or as he /she/it has reveled itself to you.
After all isnt that what we all do ?



posted on Nov, 29 2006 @ 01:28 AM
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either way you still have to believe in a "supreme being". however we still have to vote on you after your investigation so if the lodge doesnt want someone who is a devil whorshipper (that is belief in a supreme being after all) in their lodge they would just black ball them. (this actually happened in our lodge not to long ago and he was defenatly black balled). but the rule of thumb is that you do have to believe in a supreme being.



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