Agnostic Masons...

I don't see how you got what you got from this.

Cand: I, ____ __ ____,(candidate then repeats the obligation as ministered to him by the WM) of my own free will and accord, in the presence of Almighty God and this Worshipful Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons, erected to God and dedicated to the memory of the Holy Saints of Jerusalem, do hereby and hereon, solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, that I will always hele, forever conceal, and never reveal any of the secret arts, parts, or points of the hidden mysteries of Freemasonry, which I have received, am about to receive, or may be hereafter instructed in, to any person unless it shall be to a worthy Brother Entered Apprentice, or within the body of a just and duly constituted Lodge of such; and not unto him or them whom I shall hear so to be, but unto him or them only whom I shall find so to be after due trial, strict examination, or lawful Masonic information.

Furthermore: I do promise and swear that I will not write, indite, print, paint, stamp, stain, hue, cut, carve, mark or engrave the same upon anything movable or immovable, whereby or whereon the least word, syllable, letter, or character may become legible or intelligible to myself or another, whereby the secrets of Freemasonry may be unlawfully ob-tained through my unworthiness.

To all of which I do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind in my whatsoever; binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice. So help me God and make me steadfast to keep and perform the same.

It seems to me that what being said is if you tell, write or defame masonry you will pay a punishment for that. I can see your point but I just don't get how making the above oath has anything to do with community. If I don't do good to the community I can hav my tongue torn out.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
I don't see how you got what you got from this.

That's because I didn't just read the passage you quoted, I read other parts of your link as well.

Edit to add: Seeing as the site you quoted was ExMason. com, I'm sure he didn't suffer:

"To all of which I do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind in my whatsoever; binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice. So help me God and make me steadfast to keep and perform the same."



[edit on 27-11-2006 by intrepid]

I guess. I personally wouldn't take an oath like that to save my mother life. I just can't see how that has do with community and all that. Am I the only one?

The website is www.exmormon.com...

Not exmason just so no one get confused about which site I posted as a reference.

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
The website is www.exmormon.com...

Not exmason just so no one get confused about which site I posted as a reference.

My bad, the point still stands that only a part of the "oaths" were quote. My point exactly.

On any Freemason website you can find a explanation for those oaths, they were written in the 18th century during a time when bloodoaths were common, even for civil servants: they have always been nothing but symbolic, for show really, just a bit of theatre*

I do not think masons even take those oaths today, though i may be wrong* A friend of mine is a attorney who was inducted three years ago and I asked him did he have to take any "bloodcurdling" oaths and he laughed and said of course not*

I dont know, maybe at the high levels of Scottish Rite Masonry they stii take them, but they are only for dramas sake and not literal

The purpose of belief in a Supreme Being has nothing to do with keeping freemasons in fear of their (eternal) lives! The true penalty for breaking the oath is to be...

External source: Emulation ritual
... branded a willfully perjured individual, void of all moral worth, and totally unfit to be received into this worshipful Lodge, or any other warranted Lodge, or society of men who prize honour and virtue above the external advantages of rank and fortune.

This would be quite enough for an honorable man.

All of the teachings of freemasonry relate to man's humble situation with respect to the Almightly. All of the lessons relate to our relationships with God, and in essence underlines the importance of God in all our lives. To an agnostic therefore these lessons would be quite meaningless and there would be no point in joining as no personal development is possible for that person. One needs to believe in God in order to take further steps.

As I mentioned before, it is not impossible for God to be interpreted by an individual as a force, but really it must be a sentient force which is a power for Good in order for freemasonry to make sense.

Originally posted by Trinityman
All of the teachings of freemasonry relate to man's humble situation with respect to the Almightly. All of the lessons relate to our relationships with God, and in essence underlines the importance of God in all our lives. To an agnostic therefore these lessons would be quite meaningless and there would be no point in joining as no personal development is possible for that person. One needs to believe in God in order to take further steps.

As I mentioned before, it is not impossible for God to be interpreted by an individual as a force, but really it must be a sentient force which is a power for Good in order for freemasonry to make sense.

Ok, I truly have a problem with any system that postulates that man is such a weak morally corrupt critter that he cannot better himself without the aid of some gaseous entity in the sky that could be viewed as the source of most of mans problems in the first place*

Which is fine, that ledger need not be paid, I do not have to become a mason anyway: but it occurs to me that I know quite a few masons who are stark humanist, joyfully so: and who work to better mankind in the fields of medicine and academics without bowing down to a Judeo god*

Is it not possible to be a buddhist mason? Or a taost one? Must god really be some blundering "sentience" ?

Is this just the oponion of one person?

I find it a shame that this is the way the Masons work. I respect the idea of bettering a man, and I think that the Masons would have a lot to teach me, although I could just be speaking from things I've "learned" through Masonic propaganda. I always seek avenues for new knowledge, and the Masonic Order is probably a decent avenue, which is not open to me. Perhaps I'm giving them too much credit, though. Perhaps the things that they could teach me could be learned just as easily somewhere else. And maybe, like was said above, all the teachings have an underlying relation to God, which is not what I'm looking for. I've already found what I need to know about God, thank you very much.

As for the blood oaths being nothing more than dramatizations of a mythical punishment...well, I'll say this. While in the Army I had two NCOs who I talked to about the Masons. One was a current Mason, and one was an ex-Mason. When I asked the one who was a Mason about the Masons, he said, "Oh you don't wanna know too much about them! It's painful!" I assumed he was talking about initiations, but...who knows? When I asked the ex-Mason about Masons, he said that while stationed in Germany he had joined. At some point over there, one of his Brother Masons told him it was customary for Brothers to "share their wives". (I doubt and hope that this is not true of Masons.) Anyway, he refused and when the Masons found out he wasn't obliging, (maybe they didn't know what he had been asked to do?), they kiked him out or whatever. He told me that ever since he got kicked out, "The Masons have made my life a living hell." He didn't go into details, but he made it sound like he was "branded" somehow and that all Masons everywhere somehow knew to treat him poorly. He almost seemed terrifed when he was talking about it. It was a very weird conversation to say the least. So anyway, my point in all that is that it would seem as though there is some kind of "pain" involved in being in the Masons, whether it's for initiation or for punishments I don't know. And it also seems that when you do something wrong in the Masons, they don't take it too lightly. But I dunno.

All right I understand now T. But how do you get a community oath out of having you tongue cut? I don't think I have ever taken a oath that said that. Can you please explain Int.?

Originally posted by Stratrf_Rus
Comparing the UGLE to the Grand Orient is like comparing Protestants to Catholics. Whatever common history they had they are not the same for the same reasons (different beliefs of how to do business or even who can do business).

But they're both christians. On more orthodox than the other. Similarly, the irregular masons are still masons, they are not regular masons, they are unorthodox, or heretical masons.

However if you're an "irreligious libertine" which refers to someone against religion or the idea of God or the idea of the Providence of God, then you wouldn't be able to truthfully join.

Indeed, that makes sense. I suppose with a person that says they are agnostic, it'd be more of a case by case basis.

an3rkist
Why do Masons lay claim to his membership if he was an atheist?

If mozart left the RCC, that wouldn't make him an atheist. The quote you give seems to say that he leaned torwards pantheism, but even a person that leans torward pantheism might, upon examination, still beleive in some sort of supreme authoriity.

They're forced to swear "sacred" oaths.

They surely aware of the oaths before the choose to join. Its a condition of joining that they swear the oaths, sure, but that makes sense.

I was comparing the tactics

And its the tactics that are completelt different. Terrorist kill people. Masons ask that potential members swear an oath.

It's a common tactic used by businesses to keep their employees in line, too.

A business will make them sign a contract, and if they breach the contract, they've commited a crime. Masons ask people to swear an oath, if they break their oath, they're, at worst, thrown out of the club. The oath contains scary language in it that isn't followed up on. Its part of the paraphanelia of the organization; they wear aprons with occult symbols, have arcane sounding titles, make weird oaths, etc.

[edit on 28-11-2006 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by Nygdan
If mozart left the RCC, that wouldn't make him an atheist. The quote you give seems to say that he leaned torwards pantheism, but even a person that leans torward pantheism might, upon examination, still beleive in some sort of supreme authoriity.

That wasn't about Mozart. I'm aware that Mozart was a Mason, but I haven't found anything about him being atheist or agnostic. My quote was about Beethoven, who WAS an atheist. At most he believed in a supreme force that might be referred to as Mother Nature, but he did not believe in a being.

And its the tactics that are completelt different. Terrorist kill people. Masons ask that potential members swear an oath.

Um...how can I explain this better? I was comparing how the terrorists use this tactic on their members. Anyway, I'm steering away from this argument a little, not because it's not true, but because it's true for just about every organization in the world.

A business will make them sign a contract, and if they breach the contract, they've commited a crime. Masons ask people to swear an oath, if they break their oath, they're, at worst, thrown out of the club. The oath contains scary language in it that isn't followed up on. Its part of the paraphanelia of the organization; they wear aprons with occult symbols, have arcane sounding titles, make weird oaths, etc.

Well that's all well and good, but why do they feel it necessary to keep an ongoing tradition that could be referred to as "barbaric". Even if the penalties aren't carried out, who wants to be a part of an organization that even mentions it! I still think it's a scare tactic. Plain and simple. The Mormons plagiarised these oaths and penalties and I know a dozen ex-Mormons, who completely don't believe in the Church anymore, or even God, and to this day they still refuse to talk about the secret ceremonies. They're scared of something they don't even believe in. But it worked; they won't divulge the secrets to anyone ever.

Well that's all well and good, but why do they feel it necessary to keep an ongoing tradition that could be referred to as "barbaric". Even if the penalties aren't carried out, who wants to be a part of an organization that even mentions it! I still think it's a scare tactic. Plain and simple. The Mormons plagiarised these oaths and penalties and I know a dozen ex-Mormons, who completely don't believe in the Church anymore, or even God, and to this day they still refuse to talk about the secret ceremonies. They're scared of something they don't even believe in. But it worked; they won't divulge the secrets to anyone ever.


Right why not change the oaths if the oaths are out dated? If you can go around and divulge the secrets of masonry with out any penalties why not divulge? I would. If these are indeed "empty oaths" why even do them? Just to be part of the "club." Sorry I gave up stupid handshakes and passwords to club house when I was 8.

So why even take the oaths of secrecy if thiers no real reason?

Originally posted by Spores From Space
Ok, I truly have a problem with any system that postulates that man is such a weak morally corrupt critter that he cannot better himself without the aid of some gaseous entity in the sky that could be viewed as the source of most of mans problems in the first place*

Then freemasonry is not for you. But I would point out to you that God has not created any problems on Earth. Mankind has managed to do that all by itself, using Him as an excuse in many cases.

Which is fine, that ledger need not be paid, I do not have to become a mason anyway: but it occurs to me that I know quite a few masons who are stark humanist, joyfully so: and who work to better mankind in the fields of medicine and academics without bowing down to a Judeo god*

A Supreme Being is how the individual defines it.

Is it not possible to be a buddhist mason? Or a taost one? Must god really be some blundering "sentience" ?

It was pointed out in another recent thread that the Pro Grand Master of UGLE is a buddhist (apparently). Taoism I know less about.

Is this just the oponion of one person?

What me? Yes, of course. Perhaps it might be clearer if you read what the UGLE has to say on the matter.

www.grandlodge-england.org...

What about an agnostic Gnostic?

If their is no real penalty why take the oath so seriously? Why not change it around a little?

an3rkist

I don't recognize anything of your friend's story in the freemasonry I know. I suspect they were involved in an irregular lodge, certainly something other than freemasonry. Either that or they were winding you up

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
All right I understand now T. But how do you get a community oath out of having you tongue cut? I don't think I have ever taken a oath that said that. Can you please explain Int.?

Could you rephrase this question? I have no idea what you're asking

Originally posted by Trinityman
But I would point out to you that God has not created any problems on Earth. Mankind has managed to do that all by itself, using Him as an excuse in many cases.

Isn't this kind of an oximoronic statement? I mean, I see what you're saying, but if God created all things, then surely he created problems. If you say God didn't create problems, you're taking away his omnipotence, or at the very least admitting that the Holy Bible an not be taken literally. But how's about we let the Good Book speak for itself:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)

[edit on 27/11/06 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by Trinityman
an3rkist

I don't recognize anything of your friend's story in the freemasonry I know. I suspect they were involved in an irregular lodge, certainly something other than freemasonry. Either that or they were winding you up

They could very well have been putting me on, but I dunno. I know the one Mason was a member of Prince Hall Freemasonry. He actually implied that if I wanted to join he would help me, but he didn't actually invite me. The other one who was an ex-Mason, I'm unaware of what form of Freemasonry he was a member of, if it was Freemasonry at all.