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Agnostic Masons...

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posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 05:39 PM
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I'm aware that a man must profess a belief in a Supreme Being to become a Mason. I'm curious if this supreme being has to be a "being" though. I'm aganostic and don't believe in a god or anything like that, but I do believe there is a force of some kind that does everything that most people believe their "god" does. I guess I would refer to it as Nature for lack of a better term. Can a person become a Mason with a belief in something like this, even though it is not a being persay?




posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 08:06 PM
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NO, this is strictly forbiddin...you must believe in a supreme "being".

What your talking about is a theory. see we make sure you believe in a supreme being so that your vows and obligations have MEANING to you when you call your "being" to be your wittness.

Sorry but a theory doesnt cut it, you must believe in a supreme being.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 08:44 PM
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surly someone could claim to believe in a god and not really mean it, how would you make sure they really do believe?

What about agnostics who believe in god, they just choose not to follow Chrstian doctorine, such as "christ"?



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 08:44 PM
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Originally posted by umwolves123
NO, this is strictly forbiddin...you must believe in a supreme "being".

What your talking about is a theory. see we make sure you believe in a supreme being so that your vows and obligations have MEANING to you when you call your "being" to be your wittness.

Sorry but a theory doesnt cut it, you must believe in a supreme being.


So in other words, the whole point behind the necessity of believing in a Supreme Being is so that when the individual makes his promises to not divulge the secrets of Freemasonry, he makes them to what he believes is an actual being who can punish said individual? In other words, it's nothing more than a scare tactic! The Masons couldn't care less if a person believes in god or not, they just want to make sure the person believes that if he breaks his promise that he'll be punished! Wow, I'm starting to lose a little respect for the Masons. I'm sorry, but this is the kind of thing a terrorist organization would do. You're instilling fear in members of your organization so that they don't make their own decisions. I respect what the Masons advertise as their values and goals, but this little piece of information is a major sore spot on the Masonic organzation. I was asking this question out of curiosity, and in doing so I've uncovered a juicy piece of information that lends credit to all the conspiracy theorists who make "crazy" claims about the Masons. The Masonsd may not be trying to take over the world, but they're definitely an organization who has WAY too much control over their members. No wonder Masons are so hesitant to talk about the "brotherhood"! They're scared! The Masons made sure that every member is scared of his own "Supreme Being"! Wow, you're starting to lose credit Masons...I'm sorry.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 08:52 PM
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Originally posted by umwolves123
Sorry but a theory doesnt cut it, you must believe in a supreme being.


But a belief in a supreme being is just a theory. You cannot prove that there is a supreme being.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 09:10 PM
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Originally posted by In nothing we trust
But a belief in a supreme being is just a theory. You cannot prove that there is a supreme being.


Holy cow! I wish I had thought of that myself! I'm so ashamed!


This one-liner deserves some praise!



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 10:22 PM
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I am not a mason and do not propose to speak for any, but it seems to me the belief in a supreme being is used more as a badge of humility than a scare tactic, for without humility how can you grow morally?

[edit on 26-11-2006 by Spores From Space]



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 10:32 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
surly someone could claim to believe in a god and not really mean it, how would you make sure they really do believe?

What about agnostics who believe in god, they just choose not to follow Chrstian doctorine, such as "christ"?


No - there are not allowed at the altar of Freemasonry; Athiests or Irreligious Libertines.

Enough said.

It's regardless of if God is just a theory or not - it is you must believe in Him. Agnostics do not, they are fence sitters.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by an3rkist
In other words, it's nothing more than a scare tactic!

Thats kind of a poor way of thinking about it.

Firstly, an agnostic isn't someone that doesn't beleive in god, its a person who recognizes that we can't rationally know much about the supernatural. An atheist denies the existence of teh supernatural, the agnostic doesn't, the agnostic merely states that we can't know much about it.


The Masons couldn't care less if a person believes in god or not, they just want to make sure the person believes that if he breaks his promise that he'll be punished!

The purpose of teaching systems like masonry is to appeal to a person's better inclinations, to their sense that there is a supreme god out there, and that through it there is 'good' in the first place and people can better themselves, as opposed to a person that doesn't beleive in any god or anything inherently like objective, universal 'good and evil' and the like. Its not merely a way to 'trick' people into keeping masonry's secrets (which, of course, are merely esoteric meanings of symbols, handshakes, and passwords, and which, of course, have long since been revealed to the public anyway).

Masonry comes from a much more distant time than we are used to. It wouldn've been immpossible to think that a person could become a 'good person' if they didn't beleive in any supreme god. Thus the masonic organizations that exist now tend to keep up that old ideal.


I'm sorry, but this is the kind of thing a terrorist organization would do.

Terrorists target and murder civilians in order to influence their governments. Thats not what masonry is doing. Its saying that if you don't beleive in supreme godly justice, then you're never going to be able to take real meaning from the masonic lessons. It'd just be going through the motions, or 'tentatively accepting them and seeing if you like how they work'.


but they're definitely an organization who has WAY too much control over their members.

Because they ask people to swear sacred oaths??


in nothing we trust
But a belief in a supreme being is just a theory. You cannot prove that there is a supreme being

The point is, I think, that to the faithful, to the beleiver, its not a theory. For them, its real. Swearing an oath to it is serious business, it means that you're not entering onto this path lightly of flippantly or experimentally. Whereas actual agnosticism, since you can't know anything about the supreme being, and can only work on temporary, 'for the moment' speculation, isn't solid enough a foundation to erect a masonic edifice on.


stratrf_Rus
there are not allowed at the altar of Freemasonry; Athiests or Irreligious Libertines.

In Regular or UGLE masonry, yes. But there are other masonic organizations that accept atheists. There's really not much of a reason to exclude, say, a secular humanist, from masonry, for example. Masonry is from a time when an atheist was someone who had no concept of morality or ethics and who denied anything like justice, etc. Today, people recognize that morality and ethics and virtue doesn't require beleif in an afterlife or supreme being.

Agnostics do not, they are fence sitters.

An agnostic really is just a person that doesn't have irrational faith. Also, realistically, a person that considers themself an agnostic as opposed to an atheist, probably has an inclination to beleive that there is something out there, but to also recognize that we can't rationally expect to know much about the irrational and supernatural.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 10:56 PM
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Nyg wrong.

Well not so much wrong, but misleading.

See my other thread (The most powerful man in Freemasonry) for more about the lodge you're talking about, the Grand Lodge of the Orient.

Freemasons, not.

Though they say they are, no Freemasons would accept them to be such, it is as if an Atheist were to claim he were a Catholic.

As for the definition of Agnostic.

Not exactly as you define it but not so simple as I break it down

Simply though - Freemasonry wants no part of a person who does not have a God he would pray too because it is in prayer we find an inexhaustible supply of strength when man's strength fails.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 11:40 PM
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Originally posted by an3rkist
I'm aware that a man must profess a belief in a Supreme Being to become a Mason. I'm curious if this supreme being has to be a "being" though. I'm aganostic and don't believe in a god or anything like that, but I do believe there is a force of some kind that does everything that most people believe their "god" does. I guess I would refer to it as Nature for lack of a better term. Can a person become a Mason with a belief in something like this, even though it is not a being persay?

As you've probably realized, freemasonry varies across the world, and from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. In England, for example, although you will be asked if you believe in a Supreme Being you will not be cross-examined on your answer. You must respond to your own personal satisfaction. So if you can define your force as an entity and answer quite honestly in the affirmative then there is no problem with your membership. In essence therefore it is you who has to decide if you can become a Freemason or not. I know a number of people who have joined freemasonry with only a vague personal understanding of God who have developed a deeper spirituality through Freemasonry, and in some cases become Christian.

There is always the issue of what book you would take your obligation on. For many in your position the Bible is perfectly satisfactory.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by Stratrf_Rus
the Grand Lodge of the Orient. Freemasons, not.

But there is no global masonic office or anything like that, all that can be said is that there are different kinds of masonry out there. It wasn't invented in ex nihil at kilwinning. Regular masonry steming from UGLE is, certainly, the largest branch of masonry.


Freemasonry wants no part of a person who does not have a God he would pray too because it is in prayer we find an inexhaustible supply of strength when man's strength fails.

An agnostic doesn't necessarily not pray. They might pray, but don't know if their prayers will be effective. At least, thats the case, if we distinguish between them and atheists.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 12:42 AM
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Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by Stratrf_Rus
the Grand Lodge of the Orient. Freemasons, not.

But there is no global masonic office or anything like that, all that can be said is that there are different kinds of masonry out there. It wasn't invented in ex nihil at kilwinning. Regular masonry steming from UGLE is, certainly, the largest branch of masonry.


Freemasonry wants no part of a person who does not have a God he would pray too because it is in prayer we find an inexhaustible supply of strength when man's strength fails.

An agnostic doesn't necessarily not pray. They might pray, but don't know if their prayers will be effective. At least, thats the case, if we distinguish between them and atheists.


Comparing the UGLE to the Grand Orient is like comparing Protestants to Catholics. Whatever common history they had they are not the same for the same reasons (different beliefs of how to do business or even who can do business).

As for agnostics I disagree, agnostics that pray to a God and etc have nothing to worry about, they'll have to decide a book to take their oath upon in which case they'd go through what I went through mostly.

Believing in a supreme being doesn't mean being religious. That's probably where you're getting hung-up.

However if you're an "irreligious libertine" which refers to someone against religion or the idea of God or the idea of the Providence of God, then you wouldn't be able to truthfully join.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:22 AM
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Although Beethoven is not a confirmed Mason, Masons still claim him as a member because all the evidence points towards him being a Mason. How could he have ever become a Mason if this quote is true?


Ludwig van Beethoven (1770 - 1827) was raised
Catholic but quit the church and adopted Goethe's
Pantheism -- the belief that "god" is the same as the
forces and laws of nature. Although a lifelong
atheist, on his death bed, he yielded to Catholic
friends and let a priest administer the sacraments.
When the priest left, Beethoven quoted the Latin
words from the ancient Roman theater, "Applaud,
my friends, the comedy is over."


Why do Masons lay claim to his membership if he was an atheist?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 10:17 AM
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Originally posted by an3rkist
Although Beethoven is not a confirmed Mason, Masons still claim him as a member because all the evidence points towards him being a Mason. How could he have ever become a Mason if this quote is true?

snip quote

Why do Masons lay claim to his membership if he was an atheist?

Beethoven lived some time ago when the rules for this sort of thing may have been different. Plus, he could have been a member of a lodge that these days would be regarded as irregular. Hard to say really.

Check out this site for more information on his possible membership.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 10:50 AM
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So in other words, the whole point behind the necessity of believing in a Supreme Being is so that when the individual makes his promises to not divulge the secrets of Freemasonry, he makes them to what he believes is an actual being who can punish said individual? In other words, it's nothing more than a scare tactic! The Masons couldn't care less if a person believes in god or not, they just want to make sure the person believes that if he breaks his promise that he'll be punished! Wow.

I kinda fell the same way. I was emailing a freemason who stated he didn't believe in god or satan because he doesn't exist. I was wondering what does happen when a mason "demits", then goes and writes a book or does a dvd about the secrets in masonry? Will the masonic lodge hold him to the oaths? Is their a fine that he has to pay? I never heard of the punishements that happen when a former mason tells all.

Sorry to the masons on the board. But I do kinda fell that way that the only reason to admit in a being is to hold that in the oath process. Maybe I'am wrong on this. But either way masons are all right in my book. I think the thing that I don't like is all the secrecy. Like I asked about the 33rd degree but you can't talk about it.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by Spores From Space
I am not a mason and do not propose to speak for any, but it seems to me the belief in a supreme being is used more as a badge of humility than a scare tactic, for without humility how can you grow morally?


Humility = fear of the Powers That Be.


Originally posted by Nygdan
Terrorists target and murder civilians in order to influence their governments. Thats not what masonry is doing.


I wasn't comparing the goals of terrorist organizations and the Masons, I was comparing the tactics they use to keep members in line. It's a common tactic used by businesses to keep their employees in line, too. It's also what most Christian religions use to keep people from straying off the straight and narrow.



Because they ask people to swear sacred oaths??


Asked? That's the wrong word, I think. They're forced to swear "sacred" oaths. Sure, they don't have to take the oaths, but if they don't they won't become a Mason.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:13 AM
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"Oaths to keep the secrets.............."

How about oaths to one's family, one's community, one's country and one's self? I'm not a Mason but I've been reading this forum for a couple of years and I would think those were oaths that Masons would have to take.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:43 AM
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How about oaths to one's family, one's community, one's country and one's self? I'm not a Mason but I've been reading this forum for a couple of years and I would think those were oaths that Masons would have to take.

How about the oaths to keep the secrets of freemasonry secret.
www.exmormon.com...

Cand: I, ____ __ ____,(candidate then repeats the obligation as ministered to him by the WM) of my own free will and accord, in the presence of Almighty God and this Worshipful Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons, erected to God and dedicated to the memory of the Holy Saints of Jerusalem, do hereby and hereon, solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, that I will always hele, forever conceal, and never reveal any of the secret arts, parts, or points of the hidden mysteries of Freemasonry, which I have received, am about to receive, or may be hereafter instructed in, to any person unless it shall be to a worthy Brother Entered Apprentice, or within the body of a just and duly constituted Lodge of such; and not unto him or them whom I shall hear so to be, but unto him or them only whom I shall find so to be after due trial, strict examination, or lawful Masonic information.

Furthermore: I do promise and swear that I will not write, indite, print, paint, stamp, stain, hue, cut, carve, mark or engrave the same upon anything movable or immovable, whereby or whereon the least word, syllable, letter, or character may become legible or intelligible to myself or another, whereby the secrets of Freemasonry may be unlawfully ob-tained through my unworthiness.

To all of which I do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind in my whatsoever; binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice. So help me God and make me steadfast to keep and perform the same.

Sorry never made a oath were I would be harmed or worse for telling a few secrets.

To all of which I do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind in my whatsoever; binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice. So help me God and make me steadfast to keep and perform the same.

Yeah not me no way. As serious as masons take these oaths. No me I would pull the blindfold off and say,"See ya." I'am not aware of just anyone in my community who is not a mason just saying this stuff intrepid.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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Yeah, taking a look at that passage alone, it seems damn sinister doesn't it. Let's look some other oaths from your source:


Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that unbiased by the improper solicitation of friend, and uninfluenced by mercenary motives, you freely and voluntarily offer yourself a candidate for the mysteries of Freemasonry? (Candidate answers.)

Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you are prompted to solicit the privileges of Freemasonry by a favorable opinion conceived of the institution, a desire for knowledge, and a sincere wish of being serviceable to your fellow-creatures? (Candidate answers.)

Do you seriously declare, upon your honor, that you will cheerfully conform to all the ancient usages and established customs of the Fraternity? (Candidate answers. The Secretary re-enters the Lodge.)


Oaths to knowledge and the service to the community. Thanks for the link, you made my point for me. One will find what one looks for if they are open to closing their eyes on the whole.



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