N.Y. police kill groom near strip club

Marg6043 just listed a series of shootings that are questionable. All of us have knowledge of such incidents in our own communities. I wrote in one where one cop shot another in a drug sting. By mistake. I wrote of another incident where the cops broke into a house, killed the occupant, but learned later the culprit had moved away over a year earlier; the dead man was listed in the phone book at that address. The 92 year old Atlanta woman may have thought she was the victim of a home invasion. Serving warrants is risky and sometimes it is the cop who is killed. Again, serving an arrest warrant in my hometown, a good sized man with a child‘s brain took the cop’s gun away from him and shot him to death. Then he waited to be arrested. Uncertain what he had done.

“I would like to see a Federal law, like the violation of civil rights law, establish an investigative force which would be on call, like the CAB plane crash investigators, to take charge ASAP in any case where a civilian is killed by police or dies in custody, automatically. Every case. Then to make a prompt public report. Transparency, thoroughness and quality of investigative technique would be their hallmark. This would help restore public confidence in our police which is now missing, and is absolutely an essential precursor if we are ever to regain control of our cities."



[edit on 11/27/2006 by donwhite]

A few nights ago, one of the crime channels ran the story of the six death row inmates who escaped from a Virginia penitentiary. Four of them were caught in a week, but two remained free about 14 days. They almost made it to Canada, about 5 miles distant, when they surrendered.

Some cops would have shot them if the circumstances of capture would have allowed it. The overwhelming majority of police would not have done that.

But one point stands out. Six killers. All convicted. All on death row. All awaiting execution. All 6 escaped. So how many guards did the 6 kill in the escape? How many staff did they take as hostage? While on the loose, how many ordinary people did those murderers rape, rob, maim and kill? How many? Altogether?

N O N E.

So we don’t know as much about human nature as we would like to think we know. So a vicious killer is not always a vicious killer. Maybe circumstances had more to do with those crimes than we want to admit? If I had been governor of Virginia, I’d have commuted each man’s sentence to life. They earned it. The hard way!

Originally posted by marg6043
It most be hard to be white and a police in this days dealing with people of other ethnic backgrounds.

Marg, I usually like what you have to say, but this is too much. I can assure you that it's even harder to be shot in the street like a rabid dog.

Even if the police is not guilty they have to face all kind of scrutinies by everybody involve, from civil rights groups to politicians and society.

As well they should. They, like the government, are our employees.

LOL....

Like a rabid dog. That's rich.

More like a common criminal who runs over cops and rams police cars.

But no, they where good people. Must blacks turn every criminal who gets shot while commiting a crime into a mayrter that all their society should follow? I would think you could all find some better role models. OH and for the civil rights groups that cry race.. isn't it odd that 2 whites, 2 blacks and 1 hispanic who fired on these guys where all acting in self defense... except the white guys of course.

I often time's find myself truly glad that I am seperated by the internet from some of you BUTT IGNORANT ASSWIPES ... That would shame themselves with some of the responces I had the Misfortune of having had to Read Which then brings Me Back to that Old Question .. did they have any offspring That Lived ? Hello Hello People ... Is there Nothing Even Remotely WRONG WITH THAT MANY UNDER COVER OSSIFERS Driving around Up To GOD ONLY KNOWS WHAT and then Rolling up on some Guy's in a Car .... Then For "NO REASON" They Let some 50 Rounds Fly Just because The Ossifer's Were Bumped by the Car in the Space that was most behind them . Why Because they without doubt Didn't leave ENOUGH FRECKING ROOM ... Not if they don't hand The White Boy Ossifer's the City Of Industry Burns...

Originally posted by Rockpuck
runs over cops and rams police cars.

Excuse me, you must not have read the articles.

They were undercover, therefore unidentifiable as "cops."

They were undercover, therefore their vehicles were unidentifiable as "police cars."

Must blacks turn every criminal who gets shot while commiting a crime into a mayrter that all their society should follow? I would think you could all find some better role models.

Um, sweetie, I never said any of those things. I don't recall anyone else saying them either.

You sound like you have some deep-seated issues with black people.

I have deep seeded issues with anyone that generalizes any specific event to target entire populations of people. This was viewed as an assault on the black race. Apparently 2 black officers, 2 Hispanic officers and 1 white officer hardly makes it a race issue, yet they scream racism. And while you may not idolize people like the man now dead, many do. He was, briefly, a martyr for the black race.. now I suppose he will be a statistic because a bunch of white cops didn't kill him. I live north of Cincinnati, a few years ago there where large scale riots because police killed a teen. The teen stole a car, ran from police, parked in a dark alley, jumped out of the car with his hand withdrawing from his pocket. He was shot and killed. Had he been white, he would have been thought a stupid criminal, because he was black he was a martyr. All I am saying is some priorities seem to be confused there.

Problems with the black race? Hell no. Problems with people who scream racism every time something bad happens? Hell yes.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on something that I saw on the news today.

Our good buddy "Al-the-get-a-real-job-Sharpton" was in NYC today holding a gathering for the person which was killed. I swear, god forbid something happens between people of two different races (guess which ones) and ends unfavorably for the black individual(s), our buddy Sharpton will be there faster than a speeding bullet to play the not so subtle race card and further complicate matters. But as a self proclaimed "community leader" he can do this, in hopes of enticing people on the divisive issue of course, and he must or else he'd be out of a job.

"We are here because this could have been us," Sharpton said. "We've got to understand that all of us were in that car."

Link

Yes Mr. Sharpton that is indeed why YOU are there.

[edit on 28-11-2006 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Just thought I'd share my thoughts on something that I saw on the news today.

Our good buddy "Al-the-get-a-real-job-Sharpton" was in NYC today holding a gathering for the person which was killed. I swear, god forbid something happens between people of two different races (guess which ones) and ends unfavorably for the black individual(s), our buddy Sharpton will be there faster than a speeding bullet to play the not so subtle race card and further complicate matters. But as a self proclaimed "community leader" he can do this, in hopes of enticing people on the divisive issue of course, and he must or else he'd be out of a job.

"We are here because this could have been us," Sharpton said. "We've got to understand that all of us were in that car."

Link

Yes Mr. Sharpton that is indeed why YOU are there.

[edit on 28-11-2006 by WestPoint23]

Mr. Sharpton is a crap bag, IMO. This issue doesn't need to, and shouldn't have to turn into a race card game. What a crock.



Facts of the issue:

Man got shot to death.
Cop used excessive/unjustified force


Has nothing to do with race, IMO.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Apparently 2 black officers, 2 Hispanic officers and 1 white officer hardly makes it a race issue, yet they scream racism.

Yes, because the organization for which all those people work has a history of using excessive force against people of color. If the NYPD shot an innocent white man once in a while, I might not suspect racism.

But, really, the racism thing is irrelevant in this case. They murdered him. Now we'll see if it was legal.

And while you may not idolize people like the man now dead, many do.

I didn't want to get into arguing about the man's character because, really, that's not the issue here either, but you were remiss in calling him a criminal. Do you have a source that says he was ever tried and convicted for anything? If not, stop denigrating a dead man.

That said, what would be wrong in idolizing a young black man (with no police record) marrying the mother of his children? I thought those were positive attributes.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
as a self proclaimed "community leader" he can do this, in hopes of enticing people on the divisive issue of course, and he must or else he'd be out of a job.

You're absolutely right.

OTOH, when something like this happens, you don't want to do the leg-work (looking for a lawyer, contacting media so it's not swept under the rug). Also, as a minister, Sharpton can provide solace, or whatever, to the bereaved if they're Christian, or find someone who can.

On a more personal note, I live in NYC. I have male family members who could, God forbid, end up in a similar situation. Unfortunately, I can't afford to dismiss Sharpton so easily.

Racism is alive and well in America. It is barely under the “skin” of so many. At the slightest hint of race being a factor in public actions, the snakes come crawling out from under their rocks.

It is well documented that under some circumstances, a person will become an enforcer of majority norms or values, despite himself being a person or member of the effected minority group. There are good reasons for that disloyalty. Everyone wants acceptance in his chosen group. Some blacks see the world through white eyes and disruptive blacks are their enemy. As they see it, those unreconstructed blacks are bringing harm to him. Institutional inertia.

As for Rev. Al Sharpton. I like him. White Americans do not seem to be able to grasp that they are the very ones who make black leaders do the things they dislike the most. There are 1000s of black leaders who are mild mannered, who use civil discourse every day, who want to see progress between the races, but whites will not talk to them.

MLKJr was marginalized until after he was assassinated. Then whites heaped all kinds of praise on him. Whites get the leaders they force onto the black community. I say again, I like Rev. Al. And I’ll add this, I like Louis Farrahkhan, too. If he would just leave the Jews alone.



[edit on 11/28/2006 by donwhite]

Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by marg6043
It most be hard to be white and a police in this days dealing with people of other ethnic backgrounds.

Marg, I usually like what you have to say, but this is too much. I can assure you that it's even harder to be shot in the street like a rabid dog.

I understand that you may feel uneasy with that statement but let me remind you and many here, I am a minority Spanish, and I also outrage at what happened with the shootings.

Is no question that it was an abuse in the incident.

But also remember that no all cops are racist the same way that will be outrageous to say that all blacks may become criminals and the reason we get so much media coverage is because is turned into a black and white issue, by the same groups that their only purpose is to cash out from any incident involving racial groups as much as possible, under the umbrella of helping the community.



[edit on 28-11-2006 by marg6043]

I agree Donwhite, that it has to be influential black leaders to make some abuse cases to be scrutinized.

But it many of these groups that are there to cash on media attention as much as they can.

I also like Sharptom he is very likable, specially on media interviews he is not only direct but funny at times.

[edit on 28-11-2006 by marg6043]

Jesse Jackson as well as the late Yasser Arafat have been severely criticized for “taking” money meant for the movement but using it for themselves. I’m sure this same charge has been made against others. Suppose Jesse Jackson wants to go to Atlanta to investigate and speak out on the 92 year old woman incident. He can’t go by himself. He will send an advance man or two, to locate hotel rooms, meeting rooms and to make contact with people he’d like to hold conversations with.

Because he is who he is, Jackson would need 2 bodyguards to travel with him. He would need an assistant. He would want someone familiar with Atlanta to brief him. For various reasons, they all must travel first class on short notice. That means Jackson needs 8 first class tickets from NYC to Atlanta. Plus 5 or 6 hotel rooms for 3 or 4 days. Meals on the road for 8 people. Rental cars. Local stenographers. Point? For Jackson to go to Atlanta might cost $15,000 or $20,000.

If he does not have that money instantly available, what does he do? Start a fund-raiser. The same problems confronted Arafat only on a larger scale and went on for years and years. Arafat needed to have $10 or $20 million on hand to be able to remain the “leader.” Richard Nixon kept over $1 million in cash in a safe in the Oval Office, per John Dean. Leaders must have quick access to cash if they are to be leaders.

Rev. Al has the same problem. To keep enough money instantly available so that he can respond when he thinks it is opportune. And not have to call his white Hollywood-type promoters for another hand out.

The former bride-to-be, Nicole Paultre, and Al Sharpton were on Larry King tonight. Ms. Paultre was fantastic. She was so calm and thoughtful.

Here are some snippets from the transcript.

On the police

KING: We have an e-mail from Taylor in Washington, D.C. "Has this incident changed your view of the police? And if so, how?"

PAULTRE: Well, my view of the police, no. I don't believe it's changed my view of the police. I believe it was the individual, the individual who -- who made this happen. I don't -- I mean, there is -- I believe there is some things that need to be looked into with the situation with the way everything happened, but I just think it's that person.

KING: So you don't blame the whole police for the actions of one or two or a few?

PAULTRE: No, not at all.

KING: Do you expect the investigation to be fair?

PAULTRE: Yes. I would hope so.

KING: You have an extraordinary attitude.

On race

KING: Nicole, an e-mail from Maryland and Columbia, South Carolina. "Do you think the police used excessive force because your fiance is black?"

PAULTRE: I think they used excessive force overall, overall. Because he was black? I can't really say what was going through their head at the time. But I just...

KING: So you think it was excessive force, black, white or whatever?

PAULTRE: Yes, absolutely.

KING: What do you think, Al?

SHARPTON: I think that, you know, to be very candid, some of the officers involved were black, Latino and white. If they all were black, we would be fighting it.

I do say, though, that it's strange to us that it seems like this never happens in any community but ours. When we see these multiple shots, they seem to only happen in our community, even with black cops. It's almost like people feel that our communities are more vulnerable than others. But this family has said in the beginning: They're not raising race, they're raising right...

On money

KING: We have an e-mail question from Steve in New York for Nicole. "I am more than touched by this tragedy and want to know what I can do to help. Is there something that Sean wanted to fulfill in his life that the community can assist with after his death?"

Is there any campaign you're -- are you trying to raise funds for anything, Nicole?

PAULTRE: Well, for the children. At this time, I don't believe there is a fund set up, but Sean wanted to provide for his family. That's all he wanted to do, is provide for his family.

It would appear that she gave all the right answers. Whenever something tragic happens to anybody, they set up a fund. I'm usually amazed at the speed at which they manage to set up websites, when they're supposed to be busy grieving. OTOH, this young woman (and the Bells) don't seem to be pressing the issue for financial gain, which is good for their credibility.

Also, in most of these police brutality cases, the race of the victim is usually given as the reason for the incident. While we all can see the truth of that assumption, the larger question is: Why do they think they can get away with murdering citizens in our streets? That affects us all, and we know Americans don't care about stuff unless it affects them, or their tivo. So, by re-framing the tragedy, she may be able to get more support, from Americans, as opposed to from blacks and other people of color.

posted by HarlemHottie

The former bride-to-be, Nicole Paultre, and Al Sharpton were on Larry King tonight. Ms. Paultre was fantastic. She was so calm and thoughtful.
[Edited by Don W]

I saw her, and you are exactly right. She was not only beautiful, but she was very intelligent and absolutely the image of MLKJr. As Gandhi showed in India, non-violent resistance ultimately triumphs over brute force.

Some of the pro-violence folks seem to take great comfort in the color makeup of the 5 NYPD who discharged 50 rounds without a single shot fired in response. That is a tragedy compounding a tragedy. It has been well established that people of color when working for the man take on the values and morality of the man. There are understandable reasons for that.

Another factor is fear. Especially found many years ago in white police in black neighborhoods. When they had the opportunity to do as they pleased, fear drove the white police into their own form of violence. It seemed to them to be a way of self-protection. Unable to communicate, it seemed if you could make yourself feared, it would enhance your personal safety. What that produced was a sub-culture that could not rely on the police, but had to protect itself nevertheless. Result? Internal violence. Which served to re-enforced the white’s perspective of the sub-group. A downward spiral.

These kinds of cultural norms die slowly. They lurk just below the surface of even otherwise good people. And people of color who aspire to raise themselves upward, find they are caught up in the same wrongly skewed mentality as their white counterparts. So, it is no surprise to me to hear a person of color responded the same way white’s responded forever. At least since Plessy v. Fergurson, 1896. But then, how many of my white comrades know what I’m referring to anyway? en.wikipedia.org...
I feel a certain sense of pride in Associate Justice John Marshall Harlan. From Ky and the lone dissenter.

" . . in most of these police brutality cases, the race of the victim is usually given as the reason for the incident. While we all can see the truth of that assumption, the larger question is: Why do they think they can get away with murdering citizens in our streets? That affects us all, and we know Americans don't care about stuff unless it affects them . . by re-framing the tragedy, she may be able to get more support, from Americans, as opposed to from blacks and other people of color.

Or, one more thing. How many Steve (Stephen) Biko’s (Bantu) has white racism killed?
news.bbc.co.uk...


[edit on 12/5/2006 by donwhite]