Are men and women equal in Islam? Hint: NO!

I don';t understand why people must concern themselves with what other people do with their religions or beliefs. Indian women usually walk behind their men, Hassidic Jews usually seperate the men and women, women can't even touch a Hassidic Rabbi, and the women travel seperately from the men or have to be in veiled compartments. My friend who is an airline attendant had a Hassidic gentleman on her flight come up to her and had the nerve to ask her if she was menstruating! Apparently he did not wish her to handle his food if she was on her period.


Someone posted 3 reasons a woman would want to convert. While some of those reasons might be true you forgot to mention that the person may want to do so of their own free will because they love their spouse and know its a tradition, or maybe they feel its something that appeals to them. Millions of Jews/Christians/Hindus/Buddhists have converted to their spouses religions of their own free will out of love for the other person.

Lets not forget our own Womans Liberation happened not too long ago here in the USA where women were still being descriminated against not even 30 years ago. It will take Islam some time to catch up and they will do it when they are good and ready. Religious changes take time. Look at the Roman catholic chruch...we used to have masses said in latin up until the 1960's when the Pope finally changed the rules. Things that have been practiced for over a thousand years will take time to gradually change.

Originally posted by jaamaan
So why do you care

want to start a crusade ?

is there not any one in your country saying that men and women are not eaqual ?
why not get them first ?
o yes freedom of speech right
right
dont you think the person you are quoting represents the same type of person that would say such a thing in your country ?
ah well
time to go back to sleep now.

Yeah, you need to go back to sleep, apparently you didnt open your eyes long enough to read "he is not a minority and is a respected scholar among muslims"

While freedom of speech allows some fool to spout this stuff in the US, it does NOT allow ANY woman to be oppressed by such a man against her will. THAT is the fundemental difference between western culture and muslim culture, and no, I am not attacking a religion because muslims themselves admit there is no difference between government/faith/culture.

I have never been a supporter/defender of the muslim faith for many obvious reasons. Anyone in the west who defends these people really needs to stop and think about what they are doing, these people openly state they desire you to be subjugated by their ideology.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
While freedom of speech allows some fool to spout this stuff in the US, it does NOT allow ANY woman to be oppressed by such a man against her will. THAT is the fundemental difference between western culture and muslim culture, and no, I am not attacking a religion because muslims themselves admit there is no difference between government/faith/culture.

I think you need to educate yourself, have you ever been to a Muslim country? Women are treated with respect and in all Muslim countries you'll find that women occupy prominent places in society. By the way, most Muslim countries have secular governments...that doesn't really fit with your conspiracy theory does it?

Originally posted by Jamuhn
I think you need to educate yourself, have you ever been to a Muslim country? Women are treated with respect and in all Muslim countries you'll find that women occupy prominent places in society. By the way, most Muslim countries have secular governments...that doesn't really fit with your conspiracy theory does it?

*cheers*


Yeah, education seems to be a serious problem occuring in all these threads...

Okay. I've got a question. I'm looking at this quote:

Muslims developed their own rituals, mysticism, philosophy, doctrines, sacred texts, laws and shrines like everybody else. But all these religious pursuits sprang directly from the Muslims' frequently anguished contemplation of the political current affairs of Islamic society. If state institutions did not measure up to the Quranic idea, if their political leaders were cruel or exploitative, or if their community was humiliated by apparently irreligious enemies, a Muslim could feel that his or her faith in life's ultimate purpose and value was in jeopardy. Every effort had to be expended to put Islamic history back on track, or the whole religious enterprise would fail, and life would be drained of meaning. Politics was, therefore, what Christians would call a sacrament: it was the arena in which the Muslims experienced God and which enabled the divine to function effectively in the world.

(emphasis mine)
taken from Islam: A Short History by Karen Armstrong, p. xi-xxi)

How, then, is their government secular? (I ask this in earnest, and completely without sarcasm. I want to learn and understand! )

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Diseria]

Originally posted by XphilesPhanI have never been a supporter/defender of the muslim faith for many obvious reasons. Anyone in the west who defends these people really needs to stop and think about what they are doing, these people openly state they desire you to be subjugated by their ideology.

Maybe the radical fundamentalists want to take over..

But, ideology as religion? No, Muslims practice religious tolerance.

Ideology as politics? ...not sure, since I haven't read that far yet. However, from the quote above (from Islam: A Short History), I do not think that this is the case. Not entirely sure, but that's my working hypothesis. (I'll let ya know how it works out. )

------------------------------------
While I know that Christianity (vis-a-vis the Bible) has language along similar lines; where are all the preachers/ministers, etc; proclaiming women to be subservient and inferior to men? Please post here where this is happening today.
------------------------------------

try finding the doctrine for the southern baptists.....and reading it....you'll find it there.

there's some pretty strict pentecostal congregations out there also. I've been to one church where all the men sat on one side, all the women on the other.

it you're gonna start knocking religions because the words in their holy books exalt men above women, well, you should be knocking all of them. better just to accept that this was the way of life when these books were written, and rejoice at the advancements we have made as a race.

I think the story of Jesus speaking of divorce is found in three of the four gospels. simply he is trying to teach that if a man leaves his wife (divorces her), he forces her to commit adultery.... in only one of the gospels does it extend the right of divorce to the women also, if the women devorces her husband, she forces him to commit adultery.....
peter's resonse to his teaching: IF this be so, better not to be married!!
marriage was okay to him as long as he could ditch his wife (ya know there are jewish men in jail in Isreal, because the courts have ordered them to grant their abused wives a divorce and they have refused.) although I still say the wife then couldn't divorce her husband. but when the idea that hey, the divorce isn't recognized by God came into the picture....(enforced the same rules onto him as had been on the wife all along)...well all of a sudden....it's better never to have married!!!

Originally posted by dawnstar
it you're gonna start knocking religions because the words in their holy books exalt men above women, well, you should be knocking all of them. better just to accept that this was the way of life when these books were written, and rejoice at the advancements we have made as a race.

*cheers*
Right on!!

I think the story of Jesus speaking of divorce is found in three of the four gospels. simply he is trying to teach that if a man leaves his wife (divorces her), he forces her to commit adultery.... in only one of the gospels does it extend the right of divorce to the women also, if the women devorces her husband, she forces him to commit adultery.....

Off topic for a moment, but I thought Jesus taught radical egalitarianism - everyone is equal, therefore a man can divorce his wife the same as a wife may divorce her husband...

Thanks for replying diseria;

Originally posted by Diseria
No. Actually, Muhammed's original teachings are for religious Tolerance.

We can agree to disagree here. The Qur'an and Ahadith is repleate with intolerant language.

Originally posted by Diseria
And if you look at the violent Christians through history, they ALL point to the Bible. What exactly is your point with this?

I addressed this in a previous post. You can talk about ancient history all you want. The fact is that Christianity exists peacefully today. I'm talking about the past 30 years and the actions of so-called extremists commiting violent acts and who are able to support their actions from their religious texts. The history of Christianity is not a threat today. Islam is.

Originally posted by Diseria
That's fine -- except you've taken the quotes completely OUT of their cultural context.

Then so too have the 100's of millions of Muslims, including sheikhs and many other leaders, such as those I've provided in my previous posts; and who live for this "Wahaabi" style of Islam with visions of violent Jihad to spread the world over. Which translation/context do you think they're learning from?

Originally posted by Diseria
Right now, at this very moment, we (those speaking on this, and other, threads, no little if anything about the culture, their homeland, their history, their religious texts...

I appreciate that assertion. That's why, since Sept 11, 2001, when almost 3000 of my fellow countrymen as well as fellow employees (I'm a pilot for one of the airlines used in the attacks), I've taken a keen interest in Islam and have spent countless numbers of hours going through the various Islamic texts to learn more of the motivating force behind these criminals. Much to my dismay (and surprise) I found that these so-called "extremists" aren't really extreme at all. I think it's more appropriate to call them 'literalists" as they seem to live by the exact words from Islamic texts. In any case; did you spend any time at all at that islamic Q&A Website I provided in an earlier link?

Originally posted by Diseria
WE HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE! So how the heck are you, or anyone, going to outright condemn them if you have no education about them????

I'm willing to defer to experts such as Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, the propietor of IslamQ&A. I think that's a good place to include in your studies of Islam.

Originally posted by Diseria
Stealing snippets and holding them up as an overall fact is simply ridiculous.

I'm able to back my claims from multiple sources. I haven't used "snippets". The examples I provided of the subjugation of women is but just a small fraction for brevity's sake.

Originally posted by Diseria
For the record: I took out several books tonight from my local library about Islam, its history, culture, and religion.

Excellent!!! May I suggest this directory and this compendium of Muslim texts, as well as this link, which provides four translations of the Qur'an. Also, this web site is operated by well-known scholar and author, Robert Spencer, who has spent over 20 years studying and writing about Islam. He is controversial because he doesn't kowtow to political correctness. He tells the truth, as he sees it, AND backs what he says with unfiltered facts--directly from Islamic texts. He also keeps abreast of news related to Islam that mainstream media frequently neglects to report on.

Originally posted by Diseria
I think every single person needs to be educated about this, or any, subject matter before even considering debating.

Agreed. Good luck on your studies!! There's alot to learn.



[edit on 27-11-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]

a little further off topic....
a divorce is only a piece of paper. if a couple has children, along with the custody/visitation arrangements and child support and such....getting the paper is easy, the actual divorce is an entirely separate issue.
look it up in the bible....this is why there are so many christians that are opposed to divorce....why the catholic church won't recognize it except in extreme cases. Jesus kind of spoke out against the idea.

Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Thanks for replying diseria

And I Thank you in return!

Understanding your situation (the context of your posts *smirks*), I now appreciate your words even more. I like agreeing to disagree, because that leaves everything open for discussion/debate instead of heated arguments.

I'd like to add this to the batch of files. From the same website, however this is one that I've been muddling through recently. So now we've got many translations! All the better to (hopefully) get to the heart of the meaning!

Another tidbit of information I'd like to add (and this I just learned today in philosophy class), is that each of the chapters from the Qu'ran was told/written for specific problems of that time -- Muhammed's whole point in writing the chapters was to work towards solutions for (then) current political/social problems.

Likewise, the notion of a woman being alone comes from their custom of 'protectors' -- men *and* women were subject to problems if they did not have someone to look out for them. Muhammed, himself, actually went without a protector for awhile, and thus was open for assassination because no one would be readily available to avenge his death.
So, while we would view a man 'protecting' his wife as over-powering, or, at the very least, taking charge over his wife's life/lifestyle, they view it as a way of making sure that she's taken care of and looked out for.
Orphans and single women are open for abuse *because* they do not have a protector.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but I had to admit that, in some ways, it made sense -- especially for their time & place.

Then so too have the 100's of millions of Muslims, including sheikhs and many other leaders, such as those I've provided in my previous posts; and who live for this "Wahaabi" style of Islam with visions of violent Jihad to spread the world over. Which translation/context do you think they're learning from?

Methinks this problem is one that all religions suffer from -- mis-/re-interpretation, and worse yet is the whole 'literal verses loose' interpretation. Our own laws suffer from this same problem...

I appreciate that assertion. That's why, since Sept 11, 2001, when almost 3000 of my fellow countrymen as well as fellow employees (I'm a pilot for one of the airlines used in the attacks), I've taken a keen interest in Islam and have spent countless numbers of hours going through the various Islamic texts to learn more of the motivating force behind these criminals. Much to my dismay (and surprise) I found that these so-called "extremists" aren't really extreme at all. I think it's more appropriate to call them 'literalists" as they seem to live by the exact words from Islamic texts. In any case; did you spend any time at all at that islamic Q&A Website I provided in an earlier link?

And I applaud your efforts. 'Tis what we need at times like this -- educated open discussion.

Indeed, I checked out the website, and will further delve into it when I have time that permits me to do so. (Philosophy aside, I've got an independant study that's taking up *way* more time than I thought it would!)
And indeed, it was from that website that I pulled a quote earlier in this thread.. promoting the equality of wives and husbands.

Agreed. Good luck on your studies!! There's alot to learn.

So much to learn... so little time... But dang it if it ain't fun!
I hope that we may 'butt heads' again! *chuckles*

And again, Thank You for providing the websites. I shall work my way through as I can.

I'm glad that I'm not the only one working to learn more about this, and other, cultures. I was worried earlier tonight -- I got paranoid because the librarian actually questioned me! 'There's a lot of islam books going out tonight!' I seriously debated calling my parents and telling them, 'Look. If I suddenly disappear and can't be found -- it's cuz I checked out books about Islamic culture!'
How sad is that??

Education becoming criminal... ugh.

Originally posted by Diseria

Muslims developed their own rituals, mysticism, philosophy, doctrines, sacred texts, laws and shrines like everybody else. But all these religious pursuits sprang directly from the Muslims' frequently anguished contemplation of the political current affairs of Islamic society. If state institutions did not measure up to the Quranic idea, if their political leaders were cruel or exploitative, or if their community was humiliated by apparently irreligious enemies, a Muslim could feel that his or her faith in life's ultimate purpose and value was in jeopardy. Every effort had to be expended to put Islamic history back on track, or the whole religious enterprise would fail, and life would be drained of meaning. Politics was, therefore, what Christians would call a sacrament: it was the arena in which the Muslims experienced God and which enabled the divine to function effectively in the world.

(emphasis mine)
taken from Islam: A Short History by Karen Armstrong, p. xi-xxi)

How, then, is their government secular? (I ask this in earnest, and completely without sarcasm. I want to learn and understand!

)

It's as secular as the Western governments that are based upon Judeo-Christian and Roman law. The prominence of religion in past and present ensures there is a lasting influence on government, even though we call it secular.

I think it would make it clearer to show what a non-secular government is like, a theocracy:

1. a form of government in which God or a deity is recognized as the supreme civil ruler, the God's or deity's laws being interpreted by the ecclesiastical authorities.
2. a system of government by priests claiming a divine commission.
3. a commonwealth or state under such a form or system of government.

dictionary.reference.com...

That is why places like the Vatican City (Home of Roman Catholicism) and Saudia Arabia (Home of most sacred Islamic places) are not considered secular. Whereas Germany (where the Christian Democrats are in power) and Turkey (where the Justice & Development Party based on Islamic values) are still considered secular countries even though they are influenced by the values of their religion. As a side note, the JDP in Turkey is on thin ice and its previous incarnation was broken up by the military for threatening the strongly defended secular order in Turkey.

Originally posted by Jamuhn
It's as secular as the Western governments that are based upon Judeo-Christian and Roman law. The prominence of religion in past and present ensures there is a lasting influence on government, even though we call it secular.

ah hah.. hrm.. so there is no difference as to how heavy the influence is? (Because there are times when the US's 'democracy' seems to border to a theocracy because of the heavy influence of religious theology. But because priests are not determining the laws, it's not.... interesting.)

That is why places like the Vatican City (Home of Roman Catholicism) and Saudia Arabia (Home of most sacred Islamic places) are not considered secular.

Wait.. so the *country* of Saudi Arabia is considered a theocracy, but the *culture* of Islam is not? .... (I drew a line in my question, and by drawing it I've confused myself. Lemme see if I can re-phrase...)

The country of Saudi Arabia is a theocracy. Okay.
Isn't S.A. primarily an Islamic country? (Understanding, of course, that there are many religions in every country..)
If so, then how is the Islamic culture, when practicing politics, not a theocracy? or is it? (did I even manage to make my question clearer?)

Can a culture be considered a theocracy? (maybe we'll start there

)

Originally posted by Jamuhn


I think you need to educate yourself, have you ever been to a Muslim country? Women are treated with respect and in all Muslim countries you'll find that women occupy prominent places in society. By the way, most Muslim countries have secular governments...that doesn't really fit with your conspiracy theory does it?

I recommend you educate yourself a bit...

www.amazon.com...

This author Brigitte Gabriel, outlines her expierences in lebanon and her views of islam.

watch some of her interviews as well, may help you to deny your ignorance.

[edit on 28-11-2006 by XphilesPhan]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
I recommend you educate yourself a bit...

This author Brigitte Gabriel, outlines her expierences in lebanon and her views of islam.

watch some of her interviews as well, may help you to deny your ignorance.

I educated myself by going to a predominantly Muslim country and forming my own opinion. If you can muster up any courage, I recommend you do the same.

By the way, someone needs to tell this woman that a Maronite Christian is the president of Lebanon.

[edit on 28-11-2006 by Jamuhn]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan

Originally posted by Jamuhn


I think you need to educate yourself, have you ever been to a Muslim country? Women are treated with respect and in all Muslim countries you'll find that women occupy prominent places in society. By the way, most Muslim countries have secular governments...that doesn't really fit with your conspiracy theory does it?

I recommend you educate yourself a bit...

www.amazon.com...

This author Brigitte Gabriel, outlines her expierences in lebanon and her views of islam.

watch some of her interviews as well, may help you to deny your ignorance.

Being first generation American coming from Lebanese heritage, I can assure you this woman is full of garbage. I have never ever been told anything negative about Israel , and its been exactly the opposite of what she claims. As a Maronite Christian I was always told the Muslims were bad people and that the Palestinians were treated and considered as less then human. The things she says are complete lies. I have 2 ways to prove this. #1 In Lebanons law no muslim may ever be President he must be Maronite, and #2 Palestinians may only hold certain jobs in Lebanon, not doctors, lawyers or anything that holds much weight. The Christian Phalangists currently in exile living in Israel are testament to the fact that Christians colluded with Israel during the war in Lebanon to kill Muslims and Palestinians. As much as I loved my grandfather I can honestly say he was extremly prejudiced towards Muslims as are the majority of christians there and if I ever wanted to get his goat I could just tell him I was going to marry a muslim and he would curse me out in arabic.

This woman is just another example of Christian elitism in Lebanon and has been a great source of strife there. Its not just the radical islamists, its the radical christians that stoke the flames of hate too. I also would not be surprised if she was not a Evangelical Convert with her mentioning of the Old tetstament. It is not usually practice in any Roman Catholic or Maronite Catholic church to follow the Old testament, as we usually stick with the new testament. Her little story about the Checkpoints is partial truth but Christians were not without guilt. They did the same thing to Muslims in Christian held areas.

Brigitte Gabriel, I happened to hear her talking on one of the News outlets last night. the way she was going after the Islamic community, I thought she was Jewish...thanks for clearing it up....
that's the problem with our news/propaganda today, it's all so slanted one way or the other, finding the truth is next to impossible. my son will be coming back from Iraq in about six months.....and he will tell me the truth. then I can quit wondering.. till then, it's all up in the air...
still think the religion is like all the others, it has it's sector of traditionalists trying to hang onto the old ways and the rest, trying to advance forward. and well, many of the rest can find lots in the traditions that they see as quite barbaric or unfair. thus, the essence in the conflict is the same as the one that is being played out here in the US with the christian right. It's just the way the traditionalists in Islam fight their fights that is causing them problems.

Um from what I've read, mainstream religion discriminates against the female gender, this includes Christianity, Islam and Judaism. All you have to do is open their holy books and read it for yourself. The difference is that in Islam they will take it to the extreme. The importance of women in islamic culture is as important as cattle. Their only purpose is to breed more suicide-bombers.
I think one of the most tolerant mainstream beliefs, although it's not exactly regarded as a religion to some is Buddhism.
I could also put up a good defense for Christianity for the sake of Jesus, who taught tolerance of both genders.
And I'm also aware that Judaism has a variety of believers from reformists to traditionists and so forth.
Islam in my opinion is backwards when it comes to advancement as a society.

This was about equality, right?

1. Glass ceiling (women dont earn as much in totally western-orientated Australia)

2. Severaly limited in politics and top level business

3. Mens Clubs still exist, and do not allow women in

4. Every western country is fighting an internal war of violence perpetrated by westen men, against their western wives/girlfriends/daughter/mothers each and every day.

Face it, this was a smarmy excuse to chest-thump, and declare *yourself superior.

Congrats, great choice of god/bible dude - but lets do look at the "here and now" huh? I do feel all these religions atarted in the same place, with the same dumb-ass ideas and persued the same agenda of "conquering/victimising" their own nations women.

Discrimination against women takes many forms, and the west is certainly cupable of violence against them. Read the paper, man, listen to rap, our culture has the same issues at root.

Kinda ironic really.

Originally posted by dawnstar
that's the problem with our news/propaganda today, it's all so slanted one way or the other, finding the truth is next to impossible.

Bias is a human thing, so it is everywhere.
However, one can curb the bias by not relying on the newspapers, but reading various books (sometimes, the older the better because they're not emeshed in the current state of affairs)... the more you have, the more you can see where the facts are (as best we can know), and where the bias ends..

my son will be coming back from Iraq in about six months.....and he will tell me the truth.

I hope that he returns home safely!

However, keep in mind that he'll have a bias as well.. hopefully will have been able to see the culture without any military/battle influence. (no matter the culture, people get nasty in battles.. might not see their true faces) When he gets home, and if you don't mind, please share his insight!

still think the religion is like all the others, it has it's sector of traditionalists trying to hang onto the old ways and the rest, trying to advance forward. and well, many of the rest can find lots in the traditions that they see as quite barbaric or unfair. thus, the essence in the conflict is the same as the one that is being played out here in the US with the christian right. It's just the way the traditionalists in Islam fight their fights that is causing them problems.

I'm starting to think the same. The each chapter of the Qu'ran was written regarding certain problems they were having *then*.... I don't know as though Muhammed thought he was writing a book for all times. But between the various ways of interpreting the text, as well as time itself moving forward...

I'm sincerely intrigued to see where all this goes..

[edit on 28-11-2006 by Diseria]

yeah but what's the point though?

it was only 50 years ago christians used to think the same.