Are men and women equal in Islam? Hint: NO!

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posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:59 PM
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According to Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid, owner/advisor of this Islamic Q&A website, men and women are not only not equal; men are superior in every way.

Here is where this specific question is addressed

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid isn't just some nut job in the minority. He is well known and a highly regarded Sheik and author among Muslim leaders and intellectuals.

Take some time to read his answers to many questions posed to him by site visitors.

Here are some notable quotes from him regarding the question and topic of this thread:



Those who say that Islam is the religion of equality are lying against Islam. Rather Islam is the religion of justice which means treating equally those who are equal and differentiating between those who are different.

Every man knows that he finds it unacceptable if we say that the male is equal to the female.

Based on this, Islam does not regard men and women as equal in matters where regarding them as equal would result in injustice to one of them, because equality that is inappropriate is a severe form of injustice.


He quotes from the Qur'an:



“Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means”

[al-Nisa’ 4:34]


He goes on to define what this verse means:



“Allaah says ‘Men are the protectors and maintainers of women’ meaning that the man is in charge of the woman, i.e., he is the leader and head of the household, the one who disciplines her if she goes astray."

‘because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other’ i.e., because men are superior to women and are better than women.

Hence Prophethood was given only to men, as was the position of khaleefah, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘No people shall ever prosper who appoint a woman as their ruler.’


Bold added for emphasis.

What is interesting here is that not only does he provide his opinions on this website; but he provides the references from Islamic teachings and sources to back his opinions

How can there be any doubt remaining as to the foundational nature of Islam?

For the Muslim women here on ATS: What's your opinions on this?

[edit on 25-11-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]




posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 09:41 PM
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........and people honestly wonder why Americans have so many problems with islam and muslims.

their pathetic. any religion that favors 1 sex to the other is WRONG. Islam is an abomination. What type of backwards religon belives that women are of lesser worth? seriously these muslim countries are like third world nightmares. i seriously wonder if the entire world wouldn't just benefit from a democratic takeover of muslim society. they obviously are unwilling, or to stupid to solve their problems themselves.

there's no reason women should be treated like that. now granted, i think a woman should know her place, her i see no reason to cover her face and make her walk around like your dog.

i swear these bloody muslims are not evolved, or at the minimum SEVERLEY behind the times in terms of modern society. you may think i'm a bastard...and yes i may be...but come on this is just screwed up.

how can anyone support a religon where the women cover their faces and walk 10 feet behind the men? how can anyone support a religon that leads to terrorisim? wtf is seriously wrong with these people? i honestly wanna know why these muslim countries are so BASS ACKWARDS IN ALL FORMS OF LIFE.

i swear to god on my life that these muslims missed the social evolution train.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 10:31 PM
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There are women who convert to Islam (don't know the number) and I'm curious to know: What is the appeal to them? I personally believe it's often a man who convinces them of the peaceful, benevolent, accepting, and loving aspect without ever showing them the the actual words of the Qur'an or the Hadith. I think they just take on face value. Don't know. Still waiting on a Muslim woman to provide information.

Although; what am I thinking? Is it silly of me to expect a Muslim woman would be allowed to use the computer (I'm being fecetious here for those who think I'm serious).



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 10:43 PM
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The 3 reasons a woman would convert to islam:

1 - They were forced to convert by husband, family, radicals, etc.

2 - Ignorance/naivite. They didn't know/understand what they were getting into.

3 - Pathological masochism. A mental illness where they wish to inflict mental and physical pain upon themselves.

[edit on 11/26/2006 by centurion1211]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 12:11 AM
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So why do you care

want to start a crusade ?

is there not any one in your country saying that men and women are not eaqual ?
why not get them first ?
o yes freedom of speech right
right
dont you think the person you are quoting represents the same type of person that would say such a thing in your country ?
ah well
time to go back to sleep now.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by Spawwwn
their pathetic. any religion that favors 1 sex to the other is WRONG.

I guess we should boycott the other major religions as well then.

Islam is an abomination. What type of backwards religon belives that women are of lesser worth?

Christian doctrine does as well.. some women still say "love, honour and obey".. most christians however do not interprite the bible this way so to assume all muslims interprite the koran that way is ignorant and biggoted.

there's no reason women should be treated like that. now granted, i think a woman should know her place,

Would you mind explaining this hypocricy?
What is 'my place' exactly and how is your view that women should be limited to 'their place' not oppressive?

[edit on 27-11-2006 by riley]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:19 AM
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this whole topic is just based on finger pointing.

people trying to repeat the propaganda.

why do americans care all of a sudden ??

because of the news blitz

look at your own life

is it so great that you feel you can tell other people what is right and what is wrong ?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:28 AM
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The "Founding Fathers" of the USA, who were all Christians, understood the dangers of creating a "Christian" nation. That was one of the reasons there is no mention of God or Christianity in the USA Constitution, despite the religious zealots of the time insisting on such.

A growing number of people in the USA -- many of them Christians -- are disgusted by the activities of these right wing Christians extremists. What would Jesus do? Join the battle against extremists, so that the USA does not become a Christian version of Iran.
www.coyotecom.com...


In western countries we have people to that state hat women have less rights than men or other extreme ideas.
We seem to be able to live with them easy even to they are extreme christians.
Why cant we accept other nations having the same problems.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:22 AM
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One thing that people must remember is that these religions (Islam, Christian, Jewish, et cetera) were spawned in a time when there were two very distinct spheres - the man's was outside of the home, bringing in the income, and the woman was at home, taking care of the house and family. This practices goes back *much* farther, and is thus deeply instilled in people's practices.

Does it make it inherently correct? No. But at least understand where it came from.

Taken from the very same website:

Islam also honours women as wives. Islam urges the husband to treat his wife in a good and kind manner, and says that the wife has rights over the husband like his rights over her, except that he has a degree over her, because of his responsibility of spending and taking care of the family’s affairs. Islam states that the best of the Muslim men is the one who treats his wife in the best manner, and the man is forbidden to take his wife’s money without her consent. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“and live with them honourably”

[al-Nisa’ 4:19]

“And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable, but men have a degree (of responsibility) over them. And Allaah is All-Mighty, All-Wise”

[al-Baqarah 2:228]


There are equal rights present, if you keep searching. (Take any sentence out of context and you can re-/mis-interpret it a ga-zillion different ways. That does not make it correct.)

Again, these 'rights' are in the context of two separate spheres.. and this notion is just *now* changing in common practice.

Change, in general, takes time. Changing a culture takes even longer.



Originally posted by Spawwwnthere's no reason women should be treated like that. now granted, i think a woman should know her place, her i see no reason to cover her face and make her walk around like your dog.

(emphasis mine)

Dear, where is a woman's place? Please, enlighten me so that I know where I should be. *smirks*

Clearly a double standard is present, and I suggest you inspect your presuppositions, nevermind explain your statement.



how can anyone support a religon where the women cover their faces and walk 10 feet behind the men? how can anyone support a religon that leads to terrorisim? wtf is seriously wrong with these people? i honestly wanna know why these muslim countries are so BASS ACKWARDS IN ALL FORMS OF LIFE.


Then go out and educate yourself. Seriously, take a step forward to the local library, or even go to websites, read the material, ask questions, and LEARN.

That is the only way you, or anyone else, will ever be able to understand any differences.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 12:25 PM
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Originally posted by riley
Christian doctrine does as well.. some women still say "love, honour and obey".. most christians however do not interprite the bible this way so to assume all muslims interprite the koran that way is ignorant and biggoted.


Thanks for responding riley;

While I know that Christianity (vis-a-vis the Bible) has language along similar lines; where are all the preachers/ministers, etc; proclaiming women to be subservient and inferior to men? Please post here where this is happening today.

Did you go to that website I linked to? This is an opinion being espoused today!!!

What mindset do you think it is that compels this Sheik to believe this way?

It's the same mindset that gives Muslim leaders, like this, permission to publish a guide describing the proper way to beat your wife when discipling her.

It's the same mindset that gives Muslim leaders, such as this one, permission to describe raped women as being at fault because they are like "uncovered meat."

It's the same mindset that makes Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid advise this husband, whose wife said she was raped years before, that she has sinned and needs punishment

It's the same mindset that proclaims, in legal matters, that the testimony of one man equals the testimony of two women and that because of this fundamental rule under Sharia law, a raped women often finds herself charged with adultery; which is punishable by death from stoning, because she cannot provide sufficient witnesses to back her testimony.

It's the same mindset that gives fathers and brothers permission to kill daughters and sisters because they perceive these women/girls dishonored their families.

I could go on. But I think I've made my point.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:28 PM
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en.wikipedia.org...

The Bible and Christianity in general have been interpreted as prescribing separate gender roles, with women being commanded to submit to males' authority and excluded from church leadership.



Is this an example?
It happens in both religions.
So why fingerpoint
look at yourself first



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:34 PM
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www.cybercollege.com...

In the Bible's book of Deuteronomy it says that if a man marries a woman and then decides that he hates her, he can claim she wasn't a virgin when they married. At that point her father must prove she was a virgin. (How is not explained.) If he can't, then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father's doorstep. (22:13-21)



It is evident that both religions are based on the same values
need more exampes ??!



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:35 PM
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If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn't cry out loud enough, then "the men of the city shall stone her to death." (Deuteronomy 22:23-24)



a good example to




Most Old Testament law dates back centuries to Jewish tribal law and would be considered not only immoral but illegal today. At the same time, fundamentalist, Bible-carrying Christians claim they are the for-all-time, inviolable Word of God.





edit
more info added

[edit on 27-11-2006 by jaamaan]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by jaamaan
Is this an example?
It happens in both religions.
So why fingerpoint
look at yourself first


Because jaamaan; the subjugation of women is actively being practiced today in Islam (look at Saudi Arabia for other examples) as opposed to the "dark ages". I challenge you to find current examples of women being subjugated in the same manner described in my previous post under Christianity, Judaism, Catholicism.

I want to make clear that I'm not religious and, in general, my view of religion is that it's just one more thing that polarizes us from one-another. Islam, however, not only is intolerant of other faiths, but polarizes its own women as well. Does this mean ALL Muslims practice Islam in this manner?? Not at all!! But this form of Islam (Wahaabi) that includes the culture of violent Jihad is the fastest growing religion today and, in my view, presents itself as a growing threat.

If you look at the behavior of the violent Jihadists, they are able to support their actions directly from Islamic texts. In this thread, I wanted to provide specific examples of subjugation of women and in every example it was backed by a reference to islamic texts.

If you choose to be blinded; well that is your choice.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:53 PM
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i think you fail to see my point

it happens on both sides

and orriginates mostly from the same old pieces of text

just trying to give the same exact examples of an other religion.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:54 PM
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The fundamental difference as to why the literal practice of Islam is still being followed in many countries today is because of Sharia Law. Sharia Law is codified by Islamic texts. Most countries where Christianity/Judaism prevail are generally devoid of the extreme practice as described by the Bible because those countries fall under Constitutional Democratic Law which requires, among other things, separation of church and state. This is why you no longer see townsfolk chasing down witches with pitchforks and burning them at the stake.

But in most Islamic countries, asking them to forgo Sharia would be like them asking us to switch to a Sharia Legal system. This is why I believe persuing "Democracy" in Iraq, at least one that emulates western European democracy, can never happen.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:31 PM
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this isn't about ISLAM

the problem is with the culture and socioeconomic situation of the extremist countries

if people followed christianity instead of islam in those countries, would there really be a difference?

is the bible not as blood-stained as the qu'ran?
is it not as intolerant and extremist in places?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:42 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
this isn't about ISLAM

the problem is with the culture and socioeconomic situation of the extremist countries


Then how do you explain the 19 hijackers who were from either middle; or upper middle socioeconomic families? The notion that it has to do with being poor is a myth. BTW: I'm only using the 19 hijackers as an example. There is absolutely no evidence supporting that violent jihadism has anything to do with one's socioeconomic standing.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
if people followed christianity instead of islam in those countries, would there really be a difference?


There are people who DO follow Christianity in those countries. It's interesting, though, that you never hear of or see honor killings in those groups. Nor do you ever hear of or see them rise up or protest in riotous, murderous, and marauding mayhem when they or their religious icons are criticized.


Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
is the bible not as blood-stained as the qu'ran?
is it not as intolerant and extremist in places?


I addressed these two question in my previous posts. Did you not read them?

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Freedom_for_sum]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 04:55 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Islam, however, not only is intolerant of other faiths, but polarizes its own women as well. Does this mean ALL Muslims practice Islam in this manner?? Not at all!!

(emphasis mine)

No. Actually, Muhammed's original teachings are for religious Tolerance. In fact, when Arabia was united under Muhammed -- there was no official religion - THERE WERE MANY. And when Arabia 'conquered' its neighbors, they did not use force to convert people. That is a historical fact.



But this form of Islam (Wahaabi) that includes the culture of violent Jihad is the fastest growing religion today and, in my view, presents itself as a growing threat.

If you look at the behavior of the violent Jihadists, they are able to support their actions directly from Islamic texts.


And if you look at the violent Christians through history, they ALL point to the Bible. What exactly is your point with this?



In this thread, I wanted to provide specific examples of subjugation of women and in every example it was backed by a reference to islamic texts.


That's fine -- except you've taken the quotes completely OUT of their cultural context. Not only does that not prove anything, but it also defies logic because context is necessary.

Right now, at this very moment, we (those speaking on this, and other, threads, no little if anything about the culture, their homeland, their history, their religious texts... WE HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE! So how the heck are you, or anyone, going to outright condemn them if you have no education about them????

Stealing snippets and holding them up as an overall fact is simply ridiculous.

For the record: I took out several books tonight from my local library about Islam, its history, culture, and religion.

I think every single person needs to be educated about this, or any, subject matter before even considering debating.

You cannot walk into these things unprepared.


If you choose to be blinded; well that is your choice.


And the unpreparation that's been exlicitly shown here is a blinding factor as well.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by Freedom_for_sum
Nor do you ever hear of or see them rise up or protest in riotous, murderous, and marauding mayhem when they or their religious icons are criticized.


I will grant that a public figure is open for criticism...

However, religious iconography is still under debate - whether to have a statue of jesus on the cross is actual iconographic worship or not. The tradition is old and may need to be 'updated', but the issue of featuring a god or religious figure in the form of an icon is a serious thing in MOST religions, if not all.


(Also, didn't those riots happen months after the fact?)





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