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Tis The Season,.. to WILLINGLY give up Your Rights

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posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:07 PM
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Yes, tis the season


Actually it happens all the time, and most everyone thinks its a wonderful thing.

But guess what, your rights are being violated, and you get a warm fuzzy feeling over it, don't you.

You are being protected, you say.
You feel good that you are being checked.

But in actuality, this simple basic right that is given to you is so commonly removed from you in a way that it makes you feel good.

A small little benign right that most take for granted, but very clearly demonstrates the 'sheeple' attitude of rights being removed.


What am I talking about?

Your credit cards and how they are used.


When you use any credit card as a device of payment, the merchant that accepts your credit card AGREE's to a contract with the card issuer.

Note this agreement... that ALL VISA accepting merchants must agree to and adhere to....




Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID, merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance. Therefore, merchants cannot refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to provide ID. Visa believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures.
VISA


This applies to MasterCard as well.

Some more info:

CREDIT-CARD SIGNATURE IS USUALLY ALL THE ID NEEDED

MERCHANT CREDIT CARD ABUSES

Basically, Walmart on down to mom-n-pops stores often ask for ID when they have NO legal basis for asking. There are ONLY two other conditions when additional ID may be asked for,... unsigned on the reverse of the card, or signed as "Ask for ID", the latter is used when a card holder prefers to be asked on a regular basis.

But I have heard everything from "My manager made the rule to ask for ID", or "this is a high fraud season (ie-Christmas time)". Note the latter I have witnessed in a Walmart just today.


You already have fraud protection as a cardholder, and to ask for ID is just plain harassment as that kind of action ONLY protects the merchant from losses. (which wouldn't occur if they were to follow normal authorization procedures)



In summary, this little benign right that one feels so warm and fuzzy and "protected" when they GIVE IT UP, is just an example of how easily we give up our rights for all the wrong reasons.




posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:12 PM
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Oh, and I forgot,...

1 - you have the right to REFUSE additional ID

and

2 - You have the right to REPORT to VISA/MasterCard any denial of acceptance of your credit card as a stand alone device. And VISA does in fact listen, believe me.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:17 PM
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Except for one thing...

From Walmart on down to the Mom and Pop stores are "PRIVATELY" owned... They are under absolutely NO (0) ZERO ZIP, Obligation to sell anything to you or anyone else.

As long as it is not because of race, creed or religion, they can refuse service for ANY OTHER REASON. Simply because you don't show an ID is plenty of reason to not sell or service you.

You or anyone else has NO right to buy anything... You do so at the behest of the corporation, company or individual entity.

So they can. CAN, refuse to sell you anything they so desire.

Semper



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:19 PM
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Oh and I forgot one thing too....

Visa and Mastercard have contacted all of the Police agencies I know and advised them that they were advising their corporate partners to request ID on any purchase...

They do that every year about this time...

Came right to our Department and we are a State Agency..

Semper



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:20 PM
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Is this a violation of rights, or a minor inconvenience?

I understand where your coming from, as it is a nuisance from time to time. I've never had to handle this specific ordeal, so maybe I am simply inexperienced to this frustration, but being asked to show identification is not a major violation of human rights, in my opinion.



Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID


The expectation is set right from the beginning, merchants may ask for identification.

Maybe we differ on what is a violation of human rights. If the clerk was to grab me by the backside and throw a subtle wink my way, maybe I would agree. But asking to see my mug shot is acceptable. Frustrating at times, but acceptable.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:22 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Except for one thing...

From Walmart on down to the Mom and Pop stores are "PRIVATELY" owned... They are under absolutely NO (0) ZERO ZIP, Obligation to sell anything to you or anyone else.

As long as it is not because of race, creed or religion, they can refuse service for ANY OTHER REASON. Simply because you don't show an ID is plenty of reason to not sell or service you.

You or anyone else has NO right to buy anything... You do so at the behest of the corporation, company or individual entity.

So they can. CAN, refuse to sell you anything they so desire.

Semper



Uhh,...semper,...

You as well as many of these stores should study merchant account agreements.

As Walmart AGREEs to when they DECIDED to accept VISA cards, the agreed to the following,..in CONTRACT.



A merchant cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance. Therefore, merchants cannot refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to provide ID.



Semper, this only has to do with anyone who wants to accept VISA as payment, not whether they comply to the "No shoes, no shirts, no service" policy.




edit-typo

[edit on 25-11-2006 by smirkley]



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:24 PM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
Oh and I forgot one thing too....

Visa and Mastercard have contacted all of the Police agencies I know and advised them that they were advising their corporate partners to request ID on any purchase...

They do that every year about this time...

Came right to our Department and we are a State Agency..

Semper


I would love to see a link for that as demonstration, or maybe a scan of this memo?

Fact is, it still VIOLATES merchant account agreements.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:32 PM
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Originally posted by chissler
Maybe we differ on what is a violation of human rights. If the clerk was to grab me by the backside and throw a subtle wink my way, maybe I would agree. But asking to see my mug shot is acceptable. Frustrating at times, but acceptable.


Well I dont think I said "human" rights, but suggested rights of a cardholder.

VISA cards ARE ID on their own.

Frustrating yes, ACCEPTABLE NO!

I challenge anyone when confronted in such a scenario,..

Ask to speak to the manager and tell then you feel they have violated their merchant agreement by asking for additional ID.
They will comply once they realize the err of their ways.

If they still refuse to make the transaction, just call the 800 number hotline VISA has available for consumers for this exact reason, and VISA will splain it to them in a way they can understand.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:34 PM
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Originally posted by smirkley
Fact is, it still VIOLATES merchant account agreements.


In your initial post you speak of a Basic Human Right that is being violated. Now you say it Violated the merchant account agreement. Last I checked, the merchant account agreement was not a basic human right.

Someone asking for proof of identification in a store does not actually measure up as a basic human right violation.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:37 PM
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I'll see if I can get a copy of the warning we get every year Monday when I get back too work...

One point though...

If Walmart requires ID, do you really think that Visa. Master Card or anyone else will EVER come into conflict with Walmart? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I am sure it is their Number One single greatest source of revenue... If Walmart wants ID, Walmart will get ID..

Semper



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:39 PM
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Originally posted by smirkley
Well I dont think I said "human" rights, but suggested rights of a cardholder.


For clarification,


Originally posted by smirkley
But in actuality, this simple basic right that is given to you is so commonly removed from you in a way that it makes you feel good.



Originally posted by smirkley
I challenge anyone when confronted in such a scenario,..


Why? You want us to speak to the manager or begin to call 1 800 numbers and make us deal with answering machines, which opens the door to oh so many frustrations, when we could just bypass all of this and show the identification?

Why is this such a big deal? Can you inform me why I would bother to go through all of these troubles rather than flashing my card for a brief moment and then exit the store to get back to my life. To be honest, I hate shopping. Why would I want to prolong the experience?


Originally posted by smirkley
They will comply once they realize the err of their ways.


I have no urge to prove a puberty-stricken, high school kid wrong. These people are making minimum wage no doubt, I think I will do what I can to make their day a tad bit easier.

All of this just seems unnecessary to me. Why is it such a big deal to show identification?



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:41 PM
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Originally posted by chissler

Originally posted by smirkley
Fact is, it still VIOLATES merchant account agreements.


In your initial post you speak of a Basic Human Right that is being violated. Now you say it Violated the merchant account agreement. Last I checked, the merchant account agreement was not a basic human right.

Someone asking for proof of identification in a store does not actually measure up as a basic human right violation.



OK, since there seems to be some confusion of what I typed in my original post I will quote the exact text I posted...




But guess what, your rights are being violated, and you get a warm fuzzy feeling over it, don't you.





But in actuality, this simple basic right that is given to you is so commonly removed from you in a way that it makes you feel good.





A small little benign right that most take for granted, but very clearly demonstrates the 'sheeple' attitude of rights being removed.





In summary, this little benign right that one feels so warm and fuzzy and "protected" when they GIVE IT UP, is just an example of how easily we give up our rights for all the wrong reasons.



Nope, even if taken out of context, nowhere did I type "basic human rights".

Maybe you misunderstood the jest of my post, suggesting that since we all so willingly give up little bitty rights as described above, its no wonder that other more serious rights such as constitutionally given, are so easily taken from us too.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 06:45 PM
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My apologies on the insertion of the term, Human.

Basic Rights is a term that you did use. But why are we discussing the semantics?

I'm interested to know why any of this is worthwhile? Refer back to my previous post above.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 07:00 PM
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AHEM
/ranton


Originally posted by smirkley
Oh, and I forgot,...

1 - you have the right to REFUSE additional ID

and

2 - You have the right to REPORT to VISA/MasterCard any denial of acceptance of your credit card as a stand alone device. And VISA does in fact listen, believe me.


The ignorance almost makes me cry honestly..

OMG they are taking away our freedoms! They asked for my photo ID at walmart!!! AHHH

GO HOME seriously, you think that is a breach of personal privacy, personal security, personal "freedoms??"" common! PLEASE TELL ME WHERE YOUR CREDIT CARD AND YOUR ID IS PROTECTED BY THE CONSTITUTION!!!! Take a trip to a real dictatorship and then spew this BS because they will either laugh, stare blankley or beat you sensless, or since you apparently already are, maybe knock a little into you.


EDIT! Because I am not yet finished ranting at this guy.

If your entire complaint is that you where personally accousted because someone asked for your ID, because you may be to lazy to reach into your back pocket and produce an ID, but I think your better off complaining to VISA or Mastercard because you have no argument here. I would rather they check my ID everytime, imagine if someone stole mine. No, maybe that is because I am not lazy to the point I won't reach into my back pocket. This entire post was a waste of my time, and the entire topic a waste of cyber space.

/rantoff

[edit on 11/25/2006 by Rockpuck]



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 07:03 PM
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Originally posted by chissler
Basic Rights is a term that you did use. But why are we discussing the semantics?

I'm interested to know why any of this is worthwhile? Refer back to my previous post above.


We are only discussing semantics because it was brought up as a point of contention.


I am referring to Blacks law to see if I can find the case that made VISA/MasterCard Ccards established as self-identification. I hope to find it as it will demonstrate that the courts made this fact, not VISA trying to be the good guy.

And why worthwhile?

Because its a right. A right COMMONLY stripped from consumers.
I have called that 800 number before, there is a real person on the other end. And they will take your complaint to heart.

To ask for additional ID is blatenly suggestive that you are not in fact who you say you are by demonstration of the credit card.


Now take it to the context of my original post except to the level of constitutional rights and the like.

We so easily give up our rights because "its too much of a hassle to resist" the rights being taken away. Its just easier and gets you "out of the store" to instead comply with request for "your papers".

Its just easier to succumb than to uphold, for convenience or whatever reason.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 07:23 PM
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posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 07:32 PM
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So... I guess you're against MasterCard/Visa/AmEx/Diner's Club/etc. putting the cardholder's picture on the back of their cards (like many large banks already do for their debit/checkcards.) Just seems like a good idea to me. Merchants accepting cards aren't allowed (by MC, Visa, and Diner's club dunno about the others) to set a minimum purchase for card use either, but it happens all the time - it's not a law though either.

edit- Plus, nobody is forcing you to use a credit card - merchants actually lose money when you do, they'd much rather you use cash. A Visa card is not a right, heck, lots of people screwed up their credit so bad they can't even get even a high-interest one!

[edit on 25-11-2006 by AlphaHumana]



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 08:07 PM
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Where are you shopping?

I cannot recall ever having being asked for any other ID. I have been asked for a phone number ocassionaly, and I give them one -- not mine, but I give them one, usually something I make up on the spot.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 08:53 PM
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It's funny actually. Every single time I go to Wal-Mart I am asked for Driver's License if I use my credit card - like yeah, if I have a stolen credit card I'm going to be using it for deodorant and toothpaste and not the good stuff. Dinners, electronics at Circuit City - you know, much pricier stuff - never ask me to pull out my ID. I figure Wal-Mart just does it to everybody so they offend nobody. I mean, if I don't shave or change my clothes or bathe for 2 weeks (basically look like I literally just fell off the back of a turnip truck) and walk into a Johnston and Murphy shop for a pair of $700 wing-tips and give them my credit card wouldn't, as an owner, you hope your clerk checks my ID?



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 09:01 PM
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Originally posted by AlphaHumana
So... I guess you're against MasterCard/Visa/AmEx/Diner's Club/etc. putting the cardholder's picture on the back of their cards (like many large banks already do for their debit/checkcards.) Just seems like a good idea to me. Merchants accepting cards aren't allowed (by MC, Visa, and Diner's club dunno about the others) to set a minimum purchase for card use either, but it happens all the time - it's not a law though either.

edit- Plus, nobody is forcing you to use a credit card - merchants actually lose money when you do, they'd much rather you use cash. A Visa card is not a right, heck, lots of people screwed up their credit so bad they can't even get even a high-interest one!

[edit on 25-11-2006 by AlphaHumana]


ACTUALLY

I have a SAMS club / walmart credit card and infact it DOES have my picture on the back! .. I am all for identification for credit cards. The only place I have ever been asked for my Id though is 1. When I had Dr. in front of my name on one of them as a typo. 2. School, why I don't know but they check everyone because our school debit cards of pics on them to.



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