US Army Soldier is blown back by the blast of an RPG during a firefight.

Look at how candid, and braso this guy is.
www.liveleak.com...


this is the reason american wont win its war..

There's no goal to achieve hear for them,

your young men are walkin along the streets, a recruiter approaches them...
he's not thinking of that willing goal, something worth risking his life over..

he's thinking of the toys he can play with, the wicked ''movie'' he can be a part of.

If the citizens truley had an enemy worth fearing here, they'd be signing up to fight and win, instaed of filming the cool stuff.

I don't know if this can really be called The reason that the US effort is flagging, but it's deffenatly A reason.

More and more we're seeing rampent unprofessionalism of US troops being leaked out of Iraq. That idiot should have been manning his damned gun and ready to return fire on the position that launched the RPG. He's asked where it came from and he couldn't provide an answer because he was screwing around instead of doing his JOB.

I hope we are getting a distorted picture and there are more GIs acting like professionals than it seems from what we see... but I have a feeling that this sort of stupidity is perty damned rampent.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Look at how candid, and braso this guy is.
www.liveleak.com...

your young men are walkin along the streets, a recruiter approaches them...
he's not thinking of that willing goal, something worth risking his life over..

he's thinking of the toys he can play with, the wicked ''movie'' he can be a part of.

Not true, you really have no idea why most people join the military. Your trying to write it off as something cool they can do to make it look bad when really the majority of the people in the military don't join because it's the "cool" thing to do. If you think this is some wicked cool movie and this kind of thing excites you then go ahead and find a recruiter.

It looks like your doing the same thing as the media right here. You watch something without knowing what it is like to be there or do that and you apply your own spin. Go ahead and tell everyone that's why people join the military. Im sure somebody will watch that video and think your right. I mean you have the video and this nice little story to go along with it, why shouldn't they, it's what the media dose right?

Styki

Fair enough, maybe its a bit specific.

But that determination isnt there is it..

We dont believe in what we are fighting for any more..
our troops on the ground are their, enjoying themselves.. instead of fighting for their countries future.

Yes its their fault for being idiots..

but if their is no reason to be their fighting with all your attention,
you shouldnt be there!



[edit on 25-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by BitRaiser

I hope we are getting a distorted picture and there are more GIs acting like professionals than it seems from what we see... but I have a feeling that this sort of stupidity is perty damned rampent.

They are out there... They just don't really make it here because they are too boaring or it's going to be to graphic for the people to see. I mean we don't really see videos of US snipers shooting "Freedom Fighters" do we? That's just not the kind of stuff we get excited over. I think that says something good about the US people if you ask me, but you know, what ever gets you going... It dose however make the US look bad, if the people only see bad pictures of it's soldiers over and over what are they going to believe?

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
We dont believe in what we are fighting for any more..
our troops on the ground are their, enjoying themselves.. instead of fighting for their countries future.

Yes its their fault for being idiots..
[edit on 25-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

There you go again. "Enjoying themselves", your writing words for them, intentionally misleading people. Giving people a negative image of the US military. When really you have no idea what it is like to have something blow up in front of you. I dunno, if that was me I think I would rather not have something blow up in front of me.

You even go as far as to call them idiots in this post. Not only are you just taking this video and making up emotions for them like calling this event enjoyable, you then call them idiots. How would you react when you get knocked over from an explosion? There was nothing wrong with this video. In fact, it was good because he didn't get hurt all that much. This just proves how anybody can watch something and tell other people what they should think about it.

Styki

[edit on 25-11-2006 by Styki]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Look at how candid, and braso this guy is.
www.liveleak.com...


this is the reason american wont win its war..

There's no goal to achieve hear for them,

your young men are walkin along the streets, a recruiter approaches them...
he's not thinking of that willing goal, something worth risking his life over..

he's thinking of the toys he can play with, the wicked ''movie'' he can be a part of.

If the citizens truley had an enemy worth fearing here, they'd be signing up to fight and win, instaed of filming the cool stuff.

I think your being a little critical here. I think I recall a few vids of the other side brazenly shooting people, blowing people up, not to mention other acts.

[edit on 25-11-2006 by 10y_vet]

Originally posted by Styki
It dose however make the US look bad, if the people only see bad pictures of it's soldiers over and over what are they going to believe?

The point is (and I'm agreeing with agit8d's main point here), there are unprofessional yahoos screwing around when they should be in full combat mode.

I'm willing to bet rather large sums of money that the enemy doesn't take time to make "cool" videos while they are actively engaded in a firefight.

What's the big deal?

It's about comitment.
US troops aren't commited to their cause. They aren't fighting for anything they really believe in. They aren't fighting to defend their homes, their loved ones, or their way of life. Most don't really know why they are fighting at all... they just know the standard lines that are fed to them, but they know damned well that those are suspect. It's accepted that towing the line is just part of the job.

Meanwhile, there's not a single insergent that has any misunderstanding about what he's fighting for. If he didn't believe with his whole heart and mind in the "rightness" of his fight, he wouldn't be fighting. He'd drop his gun and walk away.

This is a very real and very powerful element on the battlefield. It's been known since Roman times, but most acutely remembered during Vietnam. Again, the VC knew what they were fighting for while the US forces didn't. The US lost.

It's happening again now in Iraq.

What's that old saying about what happens to those who forget the lessons of the past?

Originally posted by 10y_vet
I think your being a little critical here. I think I recall a few vids of the other side brazenly shooting people, blowing people up, not to mention other acts.

You missed the point...

Have you seen a single video of the other side screwing around and action like morons during active firefights/patrols/duties?

Nope, you haven't.
That's because they don't do that sort of thing.
The Insurgents are COMMITED.
The US troops are not.
The Insurgents are willing to do anything to win.
The US troops are not.
The Insurgents live this war. It's everything to them.
The US troops get bored/want to go home/miss having sex/complain about the food/make stupid videos when they should be manning their gun.

Make sence?

Yes, yes, I understand. There are always going to be a few who mess things up but that is just like everyday life.

There is reason a lot of US soldiers are fighting, you guys just arn't hitting on it just yet.

Originally posted by BitRaiser

The Insurgents are COMMITED.
The US troops are not.
The Insurgents are willing to do anything to win.
The US troops are not.

Oh, you mean like targetting civilians? so you want the US to start targetting civilians?

do we really have to listen to this crap every damn day? does it ever change anything? Whats the point?

did you ever consider that this might happen if the current orders are simply "occupy and pacify?"

Originally posted by Styki
There is reason a lot of US soldiers are fighting, you guys just arn't hitting on it just yet.

True.
Here's a good link to many of them: Iraq for Sale

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Oh, you mean like targetting civilians? so you want the US to start targetting civilians?

They are targeting civilians. Insurgents are not members of any recognized military... thus, they are civilians. Most have no training and were just ordenary people until they were driven to violence by the cicumstances of their situation.

Every day, non-insurgent civilians are harrassed, arrested, and killed by US troops. This is a sad nessesity of circumstances, but it's no less true. They may not use suicide bombings against gathered civilians, but stary bombs make inoccent people just as dead. So do cases of mistaken identity.

Besides that semi-semantic point, what you fail to understand is that to the insurgents the people they kill are NOT civilians. They believe that if they aren't with them, they are against them (hmm... that sounds hauntingly familiar). Thus, they are perfectly legit targets.

I know. To us westerners, it's a bent idea. To them, it's acceptable. You're always better off understanding the mind of the emeny.

Finnally, there would be no point for the US to target civilians. It would not further their agenda and would not help lead to victory. In other words, it would be a pointless and stupid thing to do.

do we really have to listen to this crap every damn day? does it ever change anything? Whats the point?

Apparently, yes.
Atleast until it starts to sink in and people WAKE UP to the madness.

did you ever consider that this might happen if the current orders are simply "occupy and pacify?"

It might not be all that bad an idea...
Atleast it would be honest and could possibly lead to a victory.

However, we westerners are constrained by our values and I doubt our forces would have the stomach for a full on pacification opperation.
That's no-doubt a good thing... but it still means that we lack the commitment that the enemy possesses.

Bottom line: Without commitment, pure and all consuming commitment, you can never win.
(Hell, that was one of my old highschool coach's favorite things to say)

Originally posted by Styki

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
We dont believe in what we are fighting for any more..
our troops on the ground are their, enjoying themselves.. instead of fighting for their countries future.

Yes its their fault for being idiots..
[edit on 25-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

There you go again. "Enjoying themselves", your writing words for them, intentionally misleading people. Giving people a negative image of the US military. When really you have no idea what it is like to have something blow up in front of you. I dunno, if that was me I think I would rather not have something blow up in front of me.

You even go as far as to call them idiots in this post. Not only are you just taking this video and making up emotions for them like calling this event enjoyable, you then call them idiots. How would you react when you get knocked over from an explosion? There was nothing wrong with this video. In fact, it was good because he didn't get hurt all that much. This just proves how anybody can watch something and tell other people what they should think about it.

Styki

[edit on 25-11-2006 by Styki]

listen to him, he's laughing..
he was just 2-3" from having an rpg ruind his life for ever..
he doesnt even know why he's there..

but he's happy to film it, the illegial war he's involved in.

theres more and more film coming out of cheering us soilders when a missle hits, or chanting hate towards them while engaging them..

we're not fighting for survival here, we're not fighting for our home are we..

THEY ARE!

its not so much what hte man is physically doing,
my point is the mentality of the supposid ' good' forces.. are lacking in direction..

what are fighting for to make us feel good again?

Originally posted by BitRaiser


More and more we're seeing rampent unprofessionalism of US troops being leaked out of Iraq. That idiot should have been manning his damned gun and ready to return fire on the position that launched the RPG. He's asked where it came from and he couldn't provide an answer because he was screwing around instead of doing his JOB.

Kinda hard to do with TWO downed weapons, and LOW ammo.

Do you expect a group of soldiers with LOW ammo, to waste said ammo, on savages who don't pose much of a threat to them in the position they are holding, or would you rather them save said ammo, for an immediate threat, that threat being, the savages moving up and rushing there position?

But seeing as your opinions on this video were most likely already decided, before you even watched it, I wouldn't expect you to notice or comprehend such things.

[edit on 25-11-2006 by C0le]

In all fairness, comparing wars this way is not a good idea. Wars share similarities, but most are different. WWII was a war that meant more than operation iraqi freedom to most. Their lives depended on winning the war. Our lives really don't depend on winning Iraq. Sure, terrorists come out of the region, but with security these days the risk is lessoned.

Agit, whatever helps you get through the madness of war, survive, and most importantly do your mission is what you need to do as a soldier. Making jokes about death, calling it a movie scene, whatever- this is needed.

I am a republican, not a neo-conservative. I don't think we should be in Iraq. I never thought we should have gone. I believe 9/11 was an inside job. I believe the Iraq invasion was a scheme at divide and conquer the middle east. I believe our actions have made more terrorists that hate us even more now. I believe this is just a sped-up way to cancel the UN and create a NWO title there.

However, I support troops. A few of my friends are soldiers. Even allegience aside to my friends, if they weren't soldiers i'd still support the troops. The administration is to blame or point fingers at, not the soldiers. Sure, some soldiers do horrible things and should be reprimanded for them- but like back in Vietnam when soldiers were called "baby killers" and spit on, that's terrible.

Back in Rome, soldiers would have parades in the streets for soldiers returning from war and campaigns (Iraq is a campaign, the proof in the pudding is what I am guessing will happen in the next ten years, which is an invasion on Iran and Syria and reshaping the middle east and divinding Iraq into mini-raqs).

As for the unprofessionalism, was there any? What did he do wrong there? The machine gun was broken, and they had low ammo. You're not going to just shoot wildly at nothing when you have low ammo, and no one there saw where it came from. You heard helicopters overhead, and you heard him also say they lit up 15 snipers. One video of 2 minutes long is not evidence to support a statement like that.

But yes Agit, I think what you're trying to say is that our forces are starting to look like some fascist army. Well, all I will touch on that is that the percentage of those types of people that are able to operate inside a fascist-type army has increased within our armed forces. Blame lowered Army standards (this is the main reason in my opinion), blame videogames and rap music, blame the admin. But it's not the whole Army, and it's not the majority either.

In a world where news is centered on solely bad and negative things, good news rarely comes out. What about all those that did their jobs with honor? If you believe one person can make a difference anywhere, then you know one person did good. Where was that story reported in the news?

So in this complicated situation, I think both sides of the arguments are right in their own ways.

[edit on 25-11-2006 by jaguarmike]

your young men are walkin along the streets, a recruiter approaches them...
he's not thinking of that willing goal, something worth risking his life over..

he's thinking of the toys he can play with, the wicked ''movie'' he can be a part of.

Sorry, but that's the biggest load of crap I've ever read.

There are real reasons to join the army other than to be in a movie, play with guns or kill people.

Here are some examples to people may join:
To protect the country
Nothing else to do in life
Broke

There are hundreds of more examples other than some guy recruited them off the street. And two, NOONE wins in a war, however USA will easily remain the occupier of Irak.

Not true, you really have no idea why most people join the military. Your trying to write it off as something cool they can do to make it look bad when really the majority of the people in the military don't join because it's the "cool" thing to do. If you think this is some wicked cool movie and this kind of thing excites you then go ahead and find a recruiter.

We dont believe in what we are fighting for any more..
our troops on the ground are their, enjoying themselves.. instead of fighting for their countries future.

They were unsuspecting to be shot at from an RPG. Though, they should of been on a lookout, so filming is a pretty stupid thing to do.

but if their is no reason to be their fighting with all your attention,
you shouldnt be there!

What are they sopposed to do? Walk out into Irak and neiboring countries?

Have you seen a single video of the other side screwing around and action like morons during active firefights/patrols/duties?

Uh, that wasn't really a firefight, and nothing much was happening for most of the event before the RPG struck. Do you beleive they should stand on gun, when low on ammo, ALL the time? They are not idiots or morons, it was just stupid to be filming and not on a look out.

Have you seen a film of the other side shooting people? Probably. Is there many videos of this? No.
United States army personel may of brang cameras, as they are Westerners. Does the average Iraqi have a camcorder? No.
There is a way bigger change of catching Americans doing stupid things than Iraqis.

Oh, I found a clip of a moron: www.youtube.com...
Who shoots at a tank once when it's obviously aiming AT you?

The point is, is theres a much bigger chance of capturing Americans doing stupid things than Iraqis. America will easily remain the occupier of Irak, although it will be a long and sloooooooowwwwwwwww fight, there is reasons to join the army, and not all troops see a point for the war.

I have read letters from US Army officers, and they quickly began wondering why they were there, as they were sitting out in the Desert doing NOTHING! Blame bush and cheney, not the troops, they are doing nothing but following orders, though, they may occasionally do stupid things.

Thanks...

[edit on 28-11-2006 by PisTonZOR]

The whole point of my post is purely explained by what the other side does.

They will fight for ever no matter how much loss you inflict.
They are fighting for their homeland.. for their national pride..

America soilders are there because they are being told to be their.
They arent saving anything..
they have no major goal giving them hope.

The younger league are their for the money..
the older league are veterans of previous campaigns, whom have some historical knowledge are their too, giving their honest opinions about the state of the conflict.

Notice how more and more senoir military figures are coming out callnig this a farse.. a disaster.. complete mis-management..

Your government created a reason..
time dwindled it down into an excuse.