Let's End The Controlled Demolition Theory!

Originally posted by CameronFox

One World Trade, September 11, 2001
American Airlines Flight 11 “impact” time:
8:46:30 UTC, per LDEO seismic data (National Institute of Standards and Technology, 2005)
8:46:40 UTC, per FAA last primary radar contact (9/11 Commission Final Report, 2004)

[SIZE=3]SO per this report, FAA lost radar contact 10 seconds AFTER the seismic data.... Let me say this again.... and AGAIN... My GUESS is that POSSIBLY it took the ten seconds for the transponder to get to the point that it was destroyed.[/SIZE]

I know I promised myself I was wasn't going to fool with your baloney any further, but this one's for fun.

AA Flt 11's transponder was turned off by the hijackers.
I posted this last night.
[SIZE=3]You're not paying very good attention.
Got it straight on the transponders now?

I looked into seismic data for Flight 93 and there was a 5 second lapse from the time of seismic activity and the time the FAA reported. Why only 5 seconds? Heck i dont know...I can Guess that if the transponder is in the front of the plane, it was reported that the plane took a vertical dive, maybe, MAYBE it was destroyed faster?

FYI, all the transponders were turned off that day EXCEPT FOR UA Flt 175.
Your little "dodge" of going off to Flt 93 [plus your question to boot] HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PAPER OR THE QUESTION AT HAND.
(Such ineptness is putting your Shill License in jeopardy.)

EYEWITNESSES.... SAW an explosion??? NO! The janitor "heard an explosion" Show me please where an eyewitness SAW an explosion in the sub basement....

Love,
Mr. Shill

You're scraping the bottom of the barrel there, Shillmeister.
Eyewitness...witness...these are common words for the same thing (yes, "earwitness" is exclusive, but you get the idea).

FYI, the very first paragraph in the paper has this:
“Seismic Proof – 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version II)”
www.studyof911.com...

SUMMARY
On September 11, 2001, the seismic stations grouped around New York City recorded seismic events from the WTC site, two of which occurred immediately prior to the aircraft impacts upon the Twin Towers. Because these seismic events preceded the collisions, it is clear they were not associated with the impacts and must therefore be associated with some other occurrence. None of the authorities charged with the responsibility for the investigation of the events of 9/11 have proposed a source for these seismic events, nor have they given a valid reason for the difference in times between the seismic events and the aircraft impacts. Only by consideration of the evidence of basement explosions before the aircraft impacts, as experienced by William Rodriquez and 36 others, can an explanation be found for the fact that the seismic stations recorded seismic events originating from the WTC sites prior to the aircraft impacts. It seems unlikely that Middle Eastern terrorists could have overcome the WTC security and managed this kind of high-level, technological coordination. Do the facts presented here, simple and few, raise the possibility of inside involvement in 9/11/01, both before and after the attack?

[snip]

Happy now?

Good. OK, comedy hour over. Now go back to playing your little games of "dodge" ball with people who are serious about wanting to discover what happened on 9/11 (You not being one of them as you must be true to your Hypocritic Oath, Dr. Shill).

Your only problem is you're so bad at being a shill -- as your shilly-ness is always showing through.



PS I've run across the best, and you ain't one of 'em.
So it's "Poof!" and you're on my IGNORE list.

Ain't life beautiful?

Now I am serious: You should be ashamed of yourself because of your intellectual dishonesty. You are a sell-out to the truth.

And that's the truth.

Welcome to 9/11 truth.

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Originally posted by ULTIMA1




Maybe you can explain the people in the sub basement and first floor being burned and on fire as the firemen arrived when most of the jet fuel was burned up in the intial explosion and what was left would have burned off quickly.

Sure thing.

All of that happened in the initial explosion. Remember the huge fireballs outside the buildings?

Now imagine what happened when those same fireballs were forced down the many elevator shafts.

It was the initial explosion that did those things.

OK, LB, I'm on your six now.

The first explosions happened before the plane hit.
I know you've seen my post with the paper because I've put it up on other threads in response to your errors regarding the facts.

YOU NEVER ANSWERED ME BACK THEN. DO YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO ANSWER NOW?

OR ARE YOU GOING TO RUN AWAY AGAIN?

I'm yelling because YOU IGNORED ME BEFORE.

Well, how about an answer this time?

“Seismic Proof – 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version II)”
Link: www.studyof911.com...
By Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross, Scholars for 9/11 Truth: www.st911.org...

Originally posted by Curio
To be honest, I've sickened myself of it. Mainly because I can't really come down on one side or the other - looking at it scientifically that is. However, I choose to look at it from a distance, forgetting all the explanations involving physics, maths, engineering, etc. The fact is.....I think it stinks. For one of the towers to collapse like it did - sure. For both towers to collapse in pretty much the same way (let's not split hairs, they did...) is very suspicious. For WTC7 to then collapse as well....we're into realms where words like "unprecedented" and "ludicrous" spring to mind. The problem is that every piece of evidence can be debunked. So I'm left with my gut feeling. It stinks.

Does that mean I definitely think it was a controlled demolition? Nope. I just think that for those buildings to come down as they did is every bit as far-fetched as the controlled demolition theory. For me, both side of the argument cancel each other out and I'm left with just that gut feeling to go on...

Curio,

Have you read the facts that show explosions happened before the plane hit?

This convinced me.

“Seismic Proof – 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version II)”
Link: www.studyof911.com...
By Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross, Scholars for 9/11 Truth: www.st911.org...

The US Government, incriminated by its own facts, the perfect evidence—how ironic.
Summary:
News Tip: A real 9/11 smoking gun…that no one can debunk (these are facts, not theory).
Airplane “Impact” Times: Incriminating Evidence of 9/11 Coverup & Complicity

The official times for plane "impact" [precise to the second] as declared by the US Government, from both the 9/11 Commission and from NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology), are different and yet both are true and accurate times. What can this factual contradiction mean? Looking exclusively at WTC1, there is found an indisputable causal link:

One World Trade, September 11, 2001
American Airlines Flight 11 “impact” time:
8:46:30 UTC, per LDEO seismic data (National Institute of Standards and Technology, 2005)
8:46:40 UTC, per FAA last primary radar contact (9/11 Commission Final Report, 2004)

Q- What caused the 8:46:30 seismic event that occurred 10 seconds before the actual air crash?
A- The only possibility is huge explosions, as corroborated by many witnesses at the time.
Q- Who caused these explosions before the plane hit?

Notes:
In 2004, the 9/11 Commission avoided addressing the earlier seismic time (which had been attributed in error by Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, originally in 2001 as plane “impact”).
In 2005, NIST avoided addressing the 9/11 Commission’s later time for the aircraft’s actual impact.
Both the 9/11 Commission and NIST avoided addressing the many witnesses who testified of explosions in the sub-basements before the plane crashed.

Summary:
This precision data has yet to be refuted. It is from the two highest governmental entities charged with looking into what happened on 9/11. Both declared these times as accurate, and in doing so corroborate William Rodriguez and the many witnesses the morning of 9/11 who testified of explosions in the sub-basements of WTC1 before American Airlines Flight 11 struck the building. This is indicting evidence of governmental coverup, and thus implication of complicity.

Demand a new, truly independent, criminal investigation of 9/11, this time a real one.
Justice waits...[and there is no statute of time limitation on murder]

Originally posted by Wolfpack 51
This topic will never get settled.

As others have said, the odds of both towers falling in the exact same manner are damn near mathmatically impossible.

Both had different forms of damage. One tower hit basically in the center of the buildings wall of impact. The other on a outside corner.

One would have received a much larger amount of jet fuel into the building, the other much less, as it was witnessed with the large fireball that was seen outside the building..

Building 7 had no reason to collapse, unless there was some other plane that caused similar damage to the twin towers.(Which were not identical in their impact points), that no one knows about.


Over and Over the same argument arises from the Offical Story Believers, that the C.D. people and any that even have doubts to the Offical Story, are just ignorent or not capable of reading the Offical Story and understanding the science.

There are not coincidences, what happened with the towers and Building 7 had something other than planes to cause them. We can argue about what caused this and who did it, but the Offical Story is definately not the answer.

Wolfpack,

These are facts from the US Government that have not been refuted.

They indicate explosions before the plane hit at WTC1.

This is evidence good enough for a court, including the court of public opinion.

Think about.

THEN READ THE REPORT.

Then think about somemore. The light bulb will go off, I can guarantee it.
Then you can decide which side of the fence you're on.

The truth or the lie.


“Seismic Proof – 9/11 Was An Inside Job (Updated Version II)”
Link: www.studyof911.com...
By Craig T. Furlong & Gordon Ross, Scholars for 9/11 Truth: www.st911.org...

The US Government, incriminated by its own facts, the perfect evidence—how ironic.
Summary:
News Tip: A real 9/11 smoking gun…that no one can debunk (these are facts, not theory).
Airplane “Impact” Times: Incriminating Evidence of 9/11 Coverup & Complicity

The official times for plane "impact" [precise to the second] as declared by the US Government, from both the 9/11 Commission and from NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology), are different and yet both are true and accurate times. What can this factual contradiction mean? Looking exclusively at WTC1, there is found an indisputable causal link:

One World Trade, September 11, 2001
American Airlines Flight 11 “impact” time:
8:46:30 UTC, per LDEO seismic data (National Institute of Standards and Technology, 2005)
8:46:40 UTC, per FAA last primary radar contact (9/11 Commission Final Report, 2004)

Q- What caused the 8:46:30 seismic event that occurred 10 seconds before the actual air crash?
A- The only possibility is huge explosions, as corroborated by many witnesses at the time.
Q- Who caused these explosions before the plane hit?

Notes:
In 2004, the 9/11 Commission avoided addressing the earlier seismic time (which had been attributed in error by Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Columbia University, originally in 2001 as plane “impact”).
In 2005, NIST avoided addressing the 9/11 Commission’s later time for the aircraft’s actual impact.
Both the 9/11 Commission and NIST avoided addressing the many witnesses who testified of explosions in the sub-basements before the plane crashed.

Summary:
This precision data has yet to be refuted. It is from the two highest governmental entities charged with looking into what happened on 9/11. Both declared these times as accurate, and in doing so corroborate William Rodriguez and the many witnesses the morning of 9/11 who testified of explosions in the sub-basements of WTC1 before American Airlines Flight 11 struck the building. This is indicting evidence of governmental coverup, and thus implication of complicity.

Demand a new, truly independent, criminal investigation of 9/11, this time a real one.
Justice waits...[and there is no statute of time limitation on murder]

STOP CALLING PEOPLE SHILLS!

It is a against the stricter rules that apply to this forum. It is a means to try to make some one you do not agree with look like their opinion should not be taken into consideration.

Originally posted by quicknthedead
The first explosions happened before the plane hit.
I know you've seen my post with the paper because I've put it up on other threads in response to your errors regarding the facts.

YOU NEVER ANSWERED ME BACK THEN. DO YOU HAVE THE GUTS TO ANSWER NOW?

Your right I never did answer. I tend to ignore people who spam every single active thread with the same dubious information.

Great, there's obviously a discrepency between the two times. This does not prove that there were explosives before the plane hit.

In fact, other than this single discrepency which you spam the board continually with, there is no evidence of explosions before the planes hit. There is no reason to respond to it, since your spam proves nothing.

You and whoever you are getting this from are making something out of nothing.

There is zero eye witness testimonies saying that an explosion came before the first impact.

The video of the first impact does not record an explosion ten seconds previously.

Obviously someone's time is incorrect, otherwise the seismic data would show two explosions.

It doesn't. Straight from the people who actually study these things.

"There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers," Lerner-Lam tells PM. "That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context."

Please, start a thread about it if your so desperate for it to be answered and stop spamming the threads and calling people shills.

BTW if someone doesn't respond to your posts, it's probably because you've got nothing. Start a new thread about it, don't attempt to bully people and attempt to derail every thread with the same post. Frankly I see nothing to this, if there were explosions before the planes hit, it would have been obvious to everyone there that day.

[edit on 26-11-2006 by LeftBehind]

Originally posted by LeftBehind


In fact, other than this single discrepency which you spam the board continually with, there is no evidence of explosions before the planes hit. There is no reason to respond to it, since your spam proves nothing.

Yes there is. There is Mr. Rodriguez's account of an explosion in the basement level before the impact on the upper levels.

Well ok, other than Mr. Rodriguez.

Who was in the Basement, yet somehow knew exactly what was happening outside.

The same Rodriguez who has changed his story a few times.

Sorry if I don't accept one guy, intimately involved with the truth movement, who says that he heard explosives and then two more impacts. From the basement.

Right.


Seriously Val, if there was anything to this it would be common knowledge.

How can something as obvious as explosives going off not be commented on by anyone but some guy in the basement?

Originally posted by LeftBehind


Seriously Val, if there was anything to this it would be common knowledge.

How can something as obvious as explosives going off not be commented on by anyone but some guy in the basement?

I'm not sure it wasn't commented on by any one other than some guy in the basement. See, to me it's odd that the first call into the PAPD that morning was not of an explosion on the top floors, where the plane hit, but of an explosion on the bottom floors. In fact, for several moments of transmissions, the focus was on the basement level.

In a typed memorandum from Alan T. DeVona, dated November 12, 2001:

Sir, in response to your request for my actions during the WTC terrorist attack on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, in which I was the Patrol Sergeant; the following is the most accurate account I can give from my memory and tapes of the radio transmissions. Please note that the given times on this chrono log, were not taken from a Dictaphone machine, but instead timed as the tapes ran simultaneously with a clock. Therefore, the times may vary slightly as compared to the Dictaphone machine.

0853 4-1 radios WTC Police Desk reporting an explosion on the lower level.

0853 WTC Police Desk replies there was an explosion on the upper floors.

0853 WTC Police Desk radios Sgt. DeVona and requests permission to release previous arrestee, permission granted by Sgt. DeVona.

0856 PO Davis reports that PATH trains are still coming into WTC.

0857 WTC Police Desk reports to PO Davis that PATH trains have been suspended into the WTC. PO Houston and PO Wholey start to evacuate PATH station.

0857 WTC requests an available unit to check Turner Construction, 1 WTC B-4 Level, report of broken water pipes.

0901 PO Houston, PO Davis and PO Wholey start to evacuate the B-4 Level, 1 WTC.

0904 PO Lim/K-9 radios to WTC Police Desk that he is en route to 1 WTC where there is a report of people trapped on the 13th floor.

0911 PO Houston, PO Davis and PO Wholey are clear of the B-4 level. PO Houston asks, "Where do you need us?" WTC Police Desk responds the 90th and the 22nd floors.

0912 PO Lim/K-9 reports jet fuel burning on the 51st floor, 1 WTC.

0912 WTC Police Desk radios PO Lim/K-9 asking if that is the smell of jet fuel. PO Lim/K-9 replies, "That's burning jet fuel." WTC Police Desk radios to Ladder 10, did you copy last. No response given.

0912 PO Houston, PO Davis and PO Wholey advise Police Desk of trapped ABM workers on the B-4 level, as per a report from an ABM worker. The desk acknowledges.

0919 PO Houston, PO Davis and PO Wholey report that all of PATH station is clear and (4) four PATH - ESU Officers remain there.

0933 PO Keane reporting from Stairway-C on the 66th floor, 1 WTC states that she heard another explosiion.

0936 Unidentified unit radiios that the stage on the PLaza is on fire.

0943 PO Keane reports that the stage on the Plaza is on fire.

[edit on 11-26-2006 by Valhall]

Quikn


Your own source has this to say about what you seem to think is the smoking gun.

www.studyof911.com...

. This data still needs to be corroborated, and both authors and the Scholars for 9/11 Truth are involved in this; however, it is worth presenting at this time. This was found inside a movie compendium, "9/11 Controlled Demolitions of September 11, 2001". To repeat, this needs further corroboration.

Emphasis mine.


This is another example of the shoddy work done at ST 9-11. They have basically taken something, that in their own words "needs further corroboration", and then run and publish an internet paper on it.

Let me guess, this one was "peer-reviewed" as well?

Several moments?

0853 4-1 radios WTC Police Desk reporting an explosion on the lower level.

0853 WTC Police Desk replies there was an explosion on the upper floors.

Seems to me that they recieved the report from the basement first, because the upper floors had been hit by a plane.

I imagine the impact might have distracted some people.

Certainly not solid evidence for explosions before the impact.

Originally posted by LeftBehind
Several moments?

0853 4-1 radios WTC Police Desk reporting an explosion on the lower level.

0853 WTC Police Desk replies there was an explosion on the upper floors.

What's this Left Behind? Are you trying to twist my words? Are you trying to use my words other than the way I used them initially.

Back away from my words.

I said

In fact, for several moments of transmissions, the focus was on the basement level.

Which has not much to do at all with the two quotes you copped - which show the basement explosion was reported before the upper level explosions - why don't you try quoting these and come back with a witty response:

0853 4-1 radios WTC Police Desk reporting an explosion on the lower level.

0856 PO Davis reports that PATH trains are still coming into WTC.

0857 WTC Police Desk reports to PO Davis that PATH trains have been suspended into the WTC. PO Houston and PO Wholey start to evacuate PATH station.

0857 WTC requests an available unit to check Turner Construction, 1 WTC B-4 Level, report of broken water pipes.

0901 PO Houston, PO Davis and PO Wholey start to evacuate the B-4 Level, 1 WTC.

0904 PO Lim/K-9 radios to WTC Police Desk that he is en route to 1 WTC where there is a report of people trapped on the 13th floor.

0911 PO Houston, PO Davis and PO Wholey are clear of the B-4 level. PO Houston asks, "Where do you need us?" WTC Police Desk responds the 90th and the 22nd floors.

0912 PO Lim/K-9 reports jet fuel burning on the 51st floor, 1 WTC.

0912 PO Houston, PO Davis and PO Wholey advise Police Desk of trapped ABM workers on the B-4 level, as per a report from an ABM worker. The desk acknowledges.

0919 PO Houston, PO Davis and PO Wholey report that all of PATH station is clear and (4) four PATH - ESU Officers remain there.

0933 PO Keane reporting from Stairway-C on the 66th floor, 1 WTC states that she heard another explosiion.

0936 Unidentified unit radiios that the stage on the PLaza is on fire.

0943 PO Keane reports that the stage on the Plaza is on fire.

All of those are about floors significantly below the impact level.

[edit on 11-26-2006 by Valhall]

Wow, that's a lot of vitriol.

Now I'm not even sure what your getting at.

I am aware that there were numerous reports of explosions and fires throughout the building.

After the impact

Which is what I thought we were talking about.

Please explain what any of your last post had to do with explosions and fires before the impact.

Obviously the report of the explosion is not the event itself.

I am not denying that. You have shown that in the same minute, first they reported the basement explosions, then they reported the upper level impact.

Look we can agree!

However, as you have recently been talking about in another thread, the chain of logic is faulty.

Basement explosions reported first, therefore, bombs went off in the basement before the plane hit.

Theres quit a few chains missing there.


But hey, you were right about them reporting it first! Hooray, you win!

Now unless you have something that proves that the two reports were seperate incidents, maybe we can get back on topic.

There were no bombs going off before the impact.

Hey Val you have a link for what you are putting up there??

I would like to see more of it.

And also if you look at the 1st 1/2 hr of CNN video on 9/11 when the 2nd plane hits, it shows smoke on the left side of WTC7. That might be of some use to show explosions going off to some degree. I have a gif of it on my site I will hunt it later and get it to you.

[edit on 11/26/2006 by ThichHeaded]

Here is the link to that gif..

www.studyof911.com...

I cant add the gif itself cause its 1.5 megs.. right click save as or just open it your choice.

Anyway it shows smoke from 9:09 to about 9:50 between 30 sex to 1 min apart.

Why smoke there, that much??

Originally posted by LeftBehind

Now unless you have something that proves that the two reports were seperate incidents, maybe we can get back on topic.

There were no bombs going off before the impact.

Oh my gawd...you were doing so good until you leaped across that last gaping chasm of a logic jump.

tsk tsk...now we're both in the same boat - and might I add as I row south, the basement explosion was indeed reported first, wasn't it?

Originally posted by Valhallthe basement explosion was indeed reported first, wasn't it?

Who cares?

I never disputed whether or not it was reported within the tower in the first place.

However, that is not what Quik is talking about. He is clearly talking about the explosions taking place before the impact. The order that reports were called in internally has no bearing unless you can prove that the reports happened before the impact.

Now if you can prove that the reports came in before the plane hit you might have something.

LB,

Here's what I said:

I'm not sure it wasn't commented on by any one other than some guy in the basement. See, to me it's odd that the first call into the PAPD that morning was not of an explosion on the top floors, where the plane hit, but of an explosion on the bottom floors. In fact, for several moments of transmissions, the focus was on the basement level.

That's germane to the topic. Stop trying to say it isn't. It's germane, and it's at least worthy of consideration as to whether there could have been an explosion in the basement before the plane hit. It becomes more significant when you have some one like Mr. Rodriguez stating there was an explosion in the basement before the plane hit.

We're either going to list all of the data here, circumstantial, analytical and hard, or we're going to play some other game where each piece gets dismissed with hand-waving.

Just for the record - I don't think the latter is part of this topic.

Originally posted by Pepe Lapiu
Does any of your numerous sources explain how WTC7 collapsed inside 7 seconds with it's penthouse sinking in first (just like a typical controlled demolition)?
Do any of your sources explain how WTC7 with only some damage to one side collapsed completely vertically without the help of any bombs into a neat little pile without eriously damaging any of the adjacent buildings?

It's not sufficient to provide a ton of links and claim that's the answer. You have to show me which one explains the collapse of WTC7, can you do that?

[edit on 25-11-2006 by Pepe Lapiu]

We did go over this before, a video was provided which shows that there were partial collapses of WTC 7 before the final collapse, and it took a lot longer than 7 seconds for the whole building to fall, in fact the time in between the "beginning" of the partial collapse and the "beginning" of the final collapse was 7-8 seconds.

I have posted a video from one of the sites which also claims this was a "govenrment conspiracy" to show the discrepancy of the claim that "wtc7 collapsed nearly symmetrically and all at once"...well it didn't happen that way and you won't see that video being shown by a lot of people who want to claim "the government was behind it".

Also, for some reason that video and another which i excerpted from the site "Whatreallyhappened" is not to be found anymore.

The following link is from ATS back in 2005 when I first posted those links, which can be found if you scroll down to the middle of the thread, and pointed out this discrepancy that some people keep repeating.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Muaddib]

Originally posted by LeftBehind
..........
There were no bombs going off before the impact.

Why oh why if there were any explosions they "have to have been from explosives or bombs"?

I mean there is no possibility at all that there were gas pipes, there were gas tanks on the basement, or even janitor closets all which have, or are flammable materials which do explode if there is a fire...

i mean, did all of the janitor closets, the gas pipes, the gas tanks, etc dissapear into oblivion together with most of the "squibs" which accompany every controlled demolition?...

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Muaddib]