If your Government brought back the draft to fight the W.O.T would you flee or fight?

Robert Baer was a CIA case officer in the Directorate of Operations from 1976 to 1997, where he served in Middle Eastern countries, including Iraq and Lebanon. He is the author of See No Evil: The True Story of a Ground Soldier in the CIA's War on Terrorism (Crown Publishers, 2002). Here, Baer says that there is evidence linking Iran to attacks on American interests, including the Khobar Towers bombing in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, that killed 19 U.S. soldiers in 1996. He says that Iran has been mishandled by U.S. diplomats since the 1980s and that American foreign policy regarding the Islamic Republic is based on myths and misinformation. Baer was interviewed by FRONTLINE producer Neil Docherty on March 22, 2002.

www.pbs.org...

Too high a risk of high casualties. They'll just moan about having to nuke them because of their uranium enriched nuclear reactors.


Sign me up, it'd be easier than single motherhood. At least you'd have back-up.

One good thing about Moving to Japan is that now I do not have to worry about this issue. But if I still live stateside I would go.

In the last words of my uncle before he left for Vietnam, "I ain't no g-ddamn draft dodger."

I detest Bush. I think the War in Iraq is a complete waste of lives, money, and, frankly, a country. I think our men and women overseas were given a raw deal.

But when your country calls, you answer.

I know a lot of people here especially will disagree, and that's your perogative, and I wish you luck escaping the pokey.

But as a Texan man, if you don't have respect, you don't have nothin', and the least respected animals in Texas are Draft Dodgers. I could never look my wife, children, or family in the eye after that. I may hate Bush and everything he stands for, but not so much that I would run like a yellow-bellied coward on the pretense of protesting a war.

Now I'm not saying all draft dodgers are cowards, but rather that's how they are percieved in my land, and I'd rather die on some godforsaken battlefield and be called a hero back home, than live to a ripe old age and be thought of as an outcast and a coward by my own flesh and blood.

I sure as hell ain't volunteering, but if my number is called, I'll answer.

If the Draft was reinstated, yeah I would go if my number was called. You know if you are drafted you don't have to join the Marines, or the Army, you can join the Airforce, the Navy or even the National Guard. And still be serving, but out of harms way. Just so you guys know.
Hell I love my country, if I didn't I would not be here.
Yes Bush has made alot of mistakes, with this so called War. But you can't blame the man, he was just doing what everyone at the time wanted. Then as soon as US lives were lost, here came the Protestors, shouting all their anti-war crap.
But to live in a free country we need people who dissagree, it makes for some interesting conversastions.
Hey Duty Calls, and I will take it.
Some of you may dissagree with some members, but the cool thing about that is, you CAN dissagree, thats what makes this world the place it is.

But when your country calls, you answer.

HAHAHAA.. sorry, but this is just pure blind patriotism, aka stupid patriotism. If you're against Bush and the Iraq war, why would you go fight an illegal war based on lies? It's not the country that calls, it's Bush, the moran and his corporate friends. Sorry but invading Iraq didn't help USA nor his security.

Wow. I just read this thread, and nearly 16 pages of the 6 little Imnans story.

So much US chest-thumping, and still so much blind allegiance to ones country. Like its sacrosanct or some nonesense. Get over your countries, they are capable of being wrong, all of us are.

""d rather die than be called a coward" - sheesh man, you take your community waaaay too seriously. off you go, dont wait, free up the gene pool for less destructive DNA, do us all a favour, and get to it.

If my govt brought in the draft to support this pile of cr#p war I'd fight them.

Somehow, somewhere, sometime (soon) mankind simply HAS to stop charging off to war in a patriotic frenzy. Both Us and ME fanatics smell the same to me.

There is so much to love about the US, but your propensity to country level violence doesnt look good, doesnt read well, and above all does not bode well for any kind of chill-down in my lifetime. Does any other modern nation have your track record, man, you are ALWAYS engaged in some dodgy action in other peoples backyards.

Yep, the Islamofascists are crusty old fools who are scared of their own women, and possibly see a monster every time they have to look at their penises.

Make no mistake, I have no time for hard core islam. id fight, here, at home, if some dickwad wanted my daughter to become a mere slave....its disgusting, retro and above all expansionist. Guess what - dont want any thanks, dont care, dont believe in any damned fool god, especially war-gods like this.

But guys, c'mon - lining up for Dubblya, grabbing that SLR and shipping off isn't the answer.

EVERY sane man and women on this planet should say 'Sir, No Sir!" - not blather on about country and homeland.

Really, its beyond old. No wonder the aliens dont talk to us.

What I find delightfully amusing is how I can state my honest answer about if I would answer and why, and accept that others will have a different answer and wish them luck, and yet those who would dodge the draft still have the gall to insult those of us who wouldn't.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
HAHAHAA.. sorry, but this is just pure blind patriotism, aka stupid patriotism. If you're against Bush and the Iraq war, why would you go fight an illegal war based on lies? It's not the country that calls, it's Bush, the moran and his corporate friends.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

I would remind you that we recently underwent a democratic revolution in the United States. The only way a draft is going to be instituted now is if the Democrats decide they're for it, or if there's enough of a bipartisan feeling that it needs to be. The war-weariness that America currently faces, coupled with the still fresh anger and resentment over Vietnam means that the decision to reinstate the draft would not be taken lightly, nor could it possibly be railroaded through our congress and senate like it could during an all-Republican control. If executed improperly or without sufficient public justification, it just very well might spark a civil war in the U.S.

So when I say "If my country calls, I would answer," I do not mean Bush, nor his cronies, nor do I fear they could institute a draft now even if they wanted to. If a draft were proposed AND instituted, it would be a large majority decision based on the the votes of our elected officials. That is not blind patriotism, that's pragmatism.

I am, however, a patriot.

There is a difference between patriotism and blind patriotism. I have never been of the school of thought that "my country, right or wrong" was ever an acceptable phrase. I am a patriot. I do love my country, even during the times when I hate her leaders. I love my state of Texas even more though. Were Texas to actually decide one day to leave the Union, I would side with Texas. Unless I had a serious moral or ethical problem with why they decided to leave (like if they wanted to institute slavery again, I couldn't back something like that).

If I feel my country or state is being run poorly, I have no qualms whatsoever about expressing that opinion and working within and without the system to change it. However, there also comes a time when one must put their personal views aside and do what's right by one's community.

Originally posted by Zenspider
So much US chest-thumping, and still so much blind allegiance to ones country. Like its sacrosanct or some nonesense. Get over your countries, they are capable of being wrong, all of us are.

""d rather die than be called a coward" - sheesh man, you take your community waaaay too seriously. off you go, dont wait, free up the gene pool for less destructive DNA, do us all a favour, and get to it.

Now I realize there are people out there who have no love for their homeland, and that's fine, but some of us do, and I rank among them.

This is the land that has raised both mine and my wife's family for generations, along with the families of our closest friends. It is the culture I was born and raised into. It is the land that houses all I hold dearest to my heart. That is to say, my home, my family, my friends. And while you may find such sentiments to be trite and deserving of my death, I take comfort in the fact that I actually have something worth dying for.



[edit on 11/28/2006 by thelibra]

You are all forgetting something when you talk about government justification:
The USA is already in a stage where the government no longer need to explain itself to you nor anyone else. They simply give a lie and have it reported as truth and so long as the rednecks buy it they will not I repeat NOT justify or attempt to justify their actions. They DO NOT CARE AT ALL about you nor anyone else who does not have at least $10 million pluss a year income and throws it around like it were pocket change.
As has been said by me and other: dems and repubs are two sides of the same coin so be VERY carefull of what you say and do pertaining to them. As for civil war caused by a draft: could be possible however at this rate the pacifist leaders in "peace groups" would have people just protest like in Vietnam. NOTHING would come out of it, millions would be drafted and they would just hold a sign singing "we shall overcome" like a bunch of retarded low life piles of S(self censored)T and get themselves and millions of others killed and murdered. The pacifist leaders HAVE to go in order for a civil war to happen, or else it will be a small scale civil war that will slowly encroach, in short they can still stop it. The other problem is that right now they have plenty of volunteers from the bible belt and so long as the flow keeps the input/output they will be fine for numbers. Besides the new loopholes allowing ALMOST ANYONE IN THE WORLD to join the military even if they are not citizens of the USA is helping them out a lot.
They have a deck of aces and we have a deck of worn out spit on cards that MIGHT have ONE ace in the deck SOMEWHERE. The odds are completely against us and they still have a million or more cards to play before they have to use a draft.
Even if the dems put in a draft I would NEVER go because they would enact the draft to send people of to the WOT which would be just a bush legacy with a new name and new liars.

Now here is a real question for you:
If civil war broke out between the government and a factiot that wanted to end all that has happened and get the nation rebuilt, WHO WOULD YOU SERVE. Just think on that one or else you risk the crazies on here threatening you. Would you serve in a draft at that time or would you join the rebel army instead?

Originally posted by Vekar
The USA is already in a stage where the government no longer need to explain itself to you nor anyone else.

No, the government WAS in a stage where they FELT they no longer needed to answer to the public or the world at large, and committed heinous acts because of that belief that they held. However, they were wrong. The public resoundingly and vehemently rose up (peacefully, mind you), and voted the offending party right out of office in both the House and Senate. They made their views quite clear, and the government is being forced to respond to their demands because the people that make up our government are being swapped out for people who realize this is still a Democracy, and they must answer to the voters.

Originally posted by Vekar
As has been said by me and other: dems and repubs are two sides of the same coin so be VERY carefull of what you say and do pertaining to them.

Yes, I've heard this since I was old enough to even know what politics meant. I've also heard that all Republicans are Evil Corporate Henchmen, all Democrats are Pinko Commie Pansies, and all Libertarians are sheep-screwing potheads... how much water do you think that holds with me?

None.

I'm a moderate. I don't trust any party blindly, any more than I trust my country blindly. However, it is still my country, it's still surviving as a nation, it's still a Democracy (well, technically a Republic, but meh), and we still hold elections to determine our government leaders. Some may be corrupt, some may be self-serving, some may even be out for world domination for all I know. But the fact of the matter is, they are elected by the people who cared enough to get up off their arses and vote.

If you voted and don't like who made it to office, too bad. That's how the system works sometimes, and best of luck in 2-4 years. If you didn't vote, you have no right to complain and you got exactly the sort of government you deserve.

Me, I voted this year. I'm frickin' thrilled with the results. And while I may not trust Democrats any more than I trust Republicans, it doesn't mean I'm not willing to give them and our system of government the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise, and you can bet your last dollar I'll be watching them like a hawk.

Now I know YOU say there's no point, the country is lost, the government is lost, etc... but here's the deal. You're just some guy. Some anonymous name on some conspiracy message forum, whom I've never even really had any sort of interaction with before today, that I can remember. Are you saying (apparently rather hypocritically) that I should blindly trust your words, rather than a hypothetical bipartisan vote by our elected officials after an intense amount of deliberation and vehement opposition on both sides that finally passes into law through our three branches of government that have been moulded and shaped over generations?

It's not so much a matter of my country right or wrong as it is: my country, my family, my friends, and my home...or what some anonymous guy on a web site said.

Originally posted by Vekar
As for civil war caused by a draft: could be possible however at this rate the pacifist leaders in "peace groups" would have people just protest like in Vietnam. NOTHING would come out of it, millions would be drafted and they would just hold a sign singing "we shall overcome" like a bunch of retarded low life piles of S(self censored)T and get themselves and millions of others killed and murdered.

If peaceful protesters began to be slaughtered by the millions, you can bet the farm they won't be peaceful very long. They couldn't even be killed by the hundreds without some SERIOUS press coverage, which would incite the nation to immediate and bloody coup, and our government knows it, and further, they know damn good and well they can't afford it, and even if they could afford it, the military couldn't possibly clamp down the entire U.S. in Marshall Law without the cooperation of the vast majority of the public. They just aren't that numerous.

Originally posted by Vekar
Now here is a real question for you:
If civil war broke out between the government and a factiot that wanted to end all that has happened and get the nation rebuilt, WHO WOULD YOU SERVE. Just think on that one or else you risk the crazies on here threatening you. Would you serve in a draft at that time or would you join the rebel army instead?

I suppose it all depended on who had the better sales pitch. Seriously.

The South tried to seceed from the Union. The rebel selling point was the right to own slaves and seceed from the United States. Were that same sales pitch used today, I'd side with the North. Iraq is currently undergoing a civil war by parties whose rebel sales pitch is the extermination of women's rights, and a facist extremist approach to Islam. In that situation, again, I would side against the rebels. In the New Democratic Republic of Congo, the rebelling faction's sales pitch was genocide of the opposition and giving AK-47's to children still in their single-digit years. In such a case, I would side against the rebels.

I know you somehow have a glamourized view that any rebellion against the United States internally would be a glorious one that would signify the greatest ideals of humanity, but to tell the truth rebellions are no more legitimate or moral than the people leading and following them.

My nation, the USA, has had it's ups and downs, it's had some tyrants at the helm, and it's committed it's fair share of atrocities. But at its core are the same values it was founded on, and those values are still the ones those who love our country fight for, be it with votes, guns, or protests. And what's more, they've managed to keep it relatively stable for over 200 years, and growing in strength, commerce, and liberties, (with the occasional hiccups like our current tyrant president).

Could the supposed rebel faction promise and demonstrate their capacity to provide those basic needs? Could they adequately demonstrate our existing nation's inability to provide those things and lack of capacity to change such a situation? Could they adequately prove that a bloody coup was the only resort remaining, that the entire process of elections and peaceful transfer of power had completely failed? I seriously doubt it. But if they could, then I would join the rebels. I'm certainly not one to just grab a gun and betray my country just because some guy on the street said to.

Originally posted by kojac
If your Government brought back the draft to fight the War on Terror, would you flee or fight

Given the extreme nature of events, legislative debate and acts that would have to fall into place and require the reinstatement of a military draft, I would serve.

Originally posted by Vekar
They simply give a lie and have it reported as truth and so long as the rednecks buy it they will not I repeat NOT justify or attempt to justify their actions.

Specifically, who/what is a “redneck” by your explicit use of the blanket term in a purposefully derogatory form?

It is only fair to inform you I born in the southern United States and currently reside in Texas (not mentioning a history of working in three different nations).

And why only as long as these supposed “rednecks buy it” will the US legislature continue on this assumed path?

Originally posted by Vekar
The other problem is that right now they have plenty of volunteers from the bible belt and so long as the flow keeps the input/output they will be fine for numbers.

2003 recruitment numbers by ratio (ages 18-24) state/population vs. enlistment do not even come remotely close to suggesting support to your stereotypical ‘statement’. Current census/recruitment data does not either.

2003 information can be found here (as well as by using the links provided below the hosted article for current regional enlistment information.).

Originally posted by Vekar
Besides the new loopholes allowing ALMOST ANYONE IN THE WORLD to join the military even if they are not citizens of the USA is helping them out a lot.

Exactly what “new loopholes”?.

Only citizens and legal permanent residents can volunteer for military enlistment in the US…period. There are a few exceptions where illegal aliens have been discovered that used false papers of actual legal residents to join and of course cases where ‘asylees’ are allowed to serve. So what?

The US has employed non-citizens and dual citizens in nearly (if not all) all major conflicts in her history (as has a whole host of other nations!). After WWI, there are plenty of examples of the US naturalizing legal residents before being shipped over seas. Please stop presenting this as something “new” as if “anyone” from around the world can simply enlist in the US military.

Drafting non-citizens is a completely different ordeal which actually has many “loopholes” and conditions.

Even when legal permanent residents volunteer...there is an extremely limited and select number MOS which is why there is a greater representation of legal immigrant resident numbers in infantry and combat roles. Only naturalized and US born citizens can get a security clearance, no matter how basic…period.

Furthermore, it only makes logical sense to promote the place standing of legal immigrant residents seeking citizenship status while in line for citizenship if they volunteer for US military service especially in an active combat role.

About a civil war in the US….

Armed rebellion which would require “joining a rebel army “in the US is a pipe dream and ironically entertained far too often by those that point fingers at the atrocities of current civil wars and uprisings.


mg

To those who try and tear others down:
Want to know what a redneck is? Go to backwater places in oh where people swill beer and whine about government no matter who is in then when someone says something against it they threaten them. You need to HANG your text book definitions on these kind of subjects and go SEE it with your own two eyes, I have, now your turn.
Not a drop of water huh? Go look up voting records why dont you? Look at how many dems vote for the very laws that STRIP your freedoms, then tell me they are not two sides of the same coin.
Voted out? HAH! They still keep voting for the republican laws! They put on a front which the population buys and then screw them! LOOK AT VOTING RECORDS ONCE AGAIN!
Military: Yes loop-holes, look at how they have degraded requirements to the point skinheads, neo-nazi's and KKK can now join. Recruiters have QUOTAS and they can fudge records all they want! PEOPLE HAVE INVESTIGATED THIS STUFF GO LOOK IT UP!
I figure your no longer reading or have pulled back into a state of denial, big mistake.
DO NOT LET YOUR GUARD DOWN! That is how you keep control, you throw the public a bone then screw them over while they have their pants down. Pathetically may have dropped their pants thinking it is safe.
I already know this will turn into a full fledged fight which is pointless, I have had these same fights and these same words thrown at me before. Thus I no longer look up referances I just say go look it up, saves me a lot of time.

Anway, back to the subject now that I have addressed the attacks.

Draft= High possibility if the bible belt and rednecks stop putting forth support as well as the loop-holes in the military.

Here is the question that SHOULD follow the question of the draft: what will the public responce be? Will people run off to join the bu#es in the field or will they fight back or cowar? Will be wind up in another Vienam like protest problem or will the nation stand down or take to the streets with guns and fight back? There has been enough thins happen already and it will take very little to push the population over the edge, right now they are trying to push to the 99.99% since their police state it not fully accomplished yet.

Originally posted by Vekar
To those who try and tear others down:

You have provided nothing more than conjecture, biased personal opinion and insults all the while standing on the firm foundation of:

Originally posted by Vekar
PEOPLE HAVE INVESTIGATED THIS STUFF GO LOOK IT UP!
[…and…]
Thus I no longer look up referances I just say go look it up, saves me a lot of time.

In other words…you can not back-up what you claim…typical.

When you can support your ranting claims get back to me...until then, adieu.


mg

Originally posted by kojac
Simple Question.

.If your Government brought back the draft to fight the War on Terror, would you flee or fight?

This question seems a bit irrelevant to me. Its a good question, tho. I was just thinking about myself and serving earlier today.

I am 37. I served in the US Army at the height of the Cold War, and for awhile after. I served in the Persian Gulf War with the 101st Airborne Division.

Although I did not support the invasion of Iraq and loathe the way this occupation has been executed, I would serve again if my nation called on me. This time, though, I would do it a bit differently.

Serving one's country, in war, actually means serving and taking care of those you are with in uniform. Doing the job you agreed to do and doing it to the best of your ability. For your country and for your fellow troops.

If I went back into the service, I would choose an MOS like medic (hopefully air medic). There is no greater way to serve than that, I think. I would be going into harm's way not to kill, but to save. And I would do that, even if it meant I would have to kill. That is the first and foremost mission of a soldier. The job is secondary.

To use the Marine Corps motto, SEMPER FIDELIS!

I'm so disgusted by the war at this point that I am all for them starting the draft.

That would be the best way to bring an end to this needlessly insane conflict. Or at least, our involvement in it. Militarily speaking.

We cannot disengage with Iraq in other important ways, but we cannot continue military operations there, with the exception of training their soldiers and police forces.

I guarantee you, if they started the draft, things would change dramatically.

And for the record, I hate the idea of a draft. Always have.

I'm for professional stuardship of our armed forces and an executive who understands the wise usage and limitations of armed conflict.

We need a draft because this administration and a frighteningly compliant congress has just about destroyed our ground forces and credibility around the world.

Its accountability time.

Catch is, if you save the lives of those who kill, you have killed as well. If you despise a war, why join when they want you to fight in it? You are NOT serving your country you are serving the ELITE. A draft would be horrific, they would get the numbers they want to push for more wars all over the world and will have the numbers to the point that they will have no fear of holding down their bases. Remember they want to build military bases all along the oil pipeline in Iraq, a draft would allow them to keep up the flow of fodder so they can hold it. Ending the war in Iraq would never happen, it would just prove to the Iraqis you have absolutely no desire to leave. They would fight back ten times as hard and the death toll would rise dramitically. This is a war where the only way to stop the losses is to get the heck out, the Iraqis will fight back tooth and nail untill there is not one Iraqi left living to fight you. Doing that would prove that you went in their in order to clense the nation of Iraqis so you can steal their land.
The war has been lost since the "shock and awe" started, they realized on the spot you had no interest in helping them. Pushing more forces in will only cause a ruckus because now you have Iraqis who are ticked off because your are truely going for a full occupation. Besides, 140,000 cannot hold it down in cities, what makes you think 300,000 will be able too? For every 1 soldier on the line it takes 5 people in reserve: 140,000 fighting, 700,000 supporting, 300,000 fighting, 1,500,000 supporting. You would only bankrupt the nation in record timing, actuall it already IS bankrupt so you will pound the nation into the ground and beyond the point of no return.
Cost of Iraq PER WEEK: 6 BILLION USD (United States Dollar) with 140,000 fighting and the 700,000 supporting. Pushing in three to four times the number of troops will raise the price to over 12 billion a week. Also you lack the resources, on top of that you will tripple the amount of depleted uranium used and only murder millions more in the long run. A draft should never happen.

Be warry of who you are serving when you join or are drafted, right now your serving the elite not the nation. Also drafting would only draft the poor, the elites children would draft dodge again and you will wind up driving the nation into more divergance than ever. People will go over the edge seeing tens of thousands dying and here the rich are sitting back drinking million dollar wines and laughing at them as they carry off shiploads of cash.

If they would let me serve I'd be suiting up in uniform in no time.

I might consider fighting if Bush sends the twins, otherwise why should a middle class workin stiff such as my self go fight a war on anything that just benefits the rich. In a sense we are all fighting a war as it is, the class war and we're getting hammered.