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Originally posted by golemina
>'An appeal to actual observation is possibly useful.'
>'The study of the explosive breakup of Comet Shoemaker-Levy when it entered Jupiter allowed some progress to be made on this kind of high-energy collision. There is no ground on Jupiter for a comet (fragment) to crash into, and yet the entry resulted in explosive results in the atmosphere. There are various plausible models of how the heating and energetics of material as a body passes through atmosphere could lead to it simply exploding under the pressures before a ground impact on earth. But - if you don't like models - at least we have the observation on Jupiter for this kind of thing. I'm afraid that your either-or situation just does not work in practice, and we have seen it to be the case.'
'Seen it to be the case'?
No really... how was your trip to Jupiter?
>'I don't know what you are trying to say here. Are you saying that we don't know anything? If so, are you proposing an alternative approach, or just preferring not to have an approach? If you could explain perhaps?'
Don't take this as too pointed... But look at the effort you seem to be going to... in a somewhat laughable attempt to make the 'conventional' preconceptions of what mainstream 'science' wants to shackle us with fit the Tunguska incident.
I hope it's not to rude of me to point out that... If you reread what your response, it is self-contradicting... and apparently, you can't seem to make up your mind about the physiology of comets (vs those frozen 'gas giants' )
Originally posted by d60944
In fact the remains of ships we have are the remains of craft that would not have been large enough to undertake long transoceanic journeys. There is not enough storage space for food and water on them for a start.
After a 101 day, 4,300 mile (7,000 km) journey across the Pacific Ocean, Kon-Tiki smashed into the reef at Raroia in the Tuamotu Islands on August 7, 1947, showing that it was possible that people before the arrival of the Europeans could have accomplished such a journey with relative ease and safety.
I am not sure I understood what you objected in my post about knowledge vs intelligence? Mathematics is not really knowledge. It is logic. The ability to work out a logic puzzle.
The maps speak for themselves. They were able to map things, to varying degrees of accuracy. But I don't see whay that should be so significant. What are you trying to prove from it? ET-aided cartography?
Originally posted by d60944
As for science, the only kinds of theories that get any kind of serious consideration are those that predict as yet untested results. The idea is then to concoct the experiment or search for the effect and see if it is as predicted by the theory. A correct prediction will lend strength to the theory. An incorrect one will require the theory to be changed or abandoned. What else IS proof after all?
Originally posted by golemina
If that wasn't bad enough... Scientists DO get into fudging of the facts... the truth... for a HUGE number of reasons.
ABSTRACT: In the routine practice of scientific research, there are many types of misrepresentation and bias which could be considered dubious. However, only a few narrowly defined behaviours are singled out and castigated as scientific fraud. A narrow definition of scientific fraud is convenient to the groups in society -- scientific elites, and powerful government and corporate interests -- that have the dominant influence on priorities in science. Several prominent Australian cases illustrate how the denunciation of fraud helps to paint the rest of scientific behaviour as blameless.
(comment: it should be noted that fraud or the mere accusation of misconduct can be used to remove and/or silence a targetted individual (like drugs in similar situations) a few well placed pieces of fake evidence and and simple slander are all that is usually needed - LL)
Ask most scientists about scientific fraud and they will readily tell you what it is. The most extreme cases are obvious: manufacturing data and altering experimental results. Then there is plagiarism: using someone else's text or data without acknowledgement. More difficult are the borderline cases: minor fudging of data, reporting only the good results and not citing other people's work that should be given credit. Because obvious fraud is thought to be both rare and extremely serious, the normal idea is that it warrants serious penalties.
That is the usual picture, anyway, for public consumption. Probe a bit more deeply into scientific activities, and you will find that fraud is neither clear-cut nor rare. Stories abound of the stealing of credit for ideas. They range from the PhD supervisor who published his student's work under his own name, to the top scientist who, as a referee, delayed publication of a rival's work in order to obtain full credit for it himself -- including a Nobel Prize. There are also stories of various other forms of cheating.
In 1912, at a meeting of the Geological Society in London, Charles Dawson and Arthur Smith Woodward produced fragments of the skull of so-called Piltdown Man, allegedly discovered by workmen in gravel pits in Sussex.
Consensus tends to cohere around 'safe' projects, pushing just a little bit further the boundaries of already well-tried methods
Over 40 years later, Piltdown Man was shown to be a composite forgery, put together out of a medieval human skull, the 500-year-old lower jaw of an orangutan, and chimpanzee fossil teeth.
The deception went undetected for so long because it offered the experts of the day exactly what they wanted - convincing evidence that human evolution was brain-led.
Originally posted by Long Lance
...i'll have to state the provocative hypothesis that today's societies are driven, by internal selective pressure, to devlop ever better mechanisms of manipulation and deceit.
BAFFLING BATTERIES OF BABYLON
In 1938, Dr. Wilhelm Kong, an Austrian archaeologist rummaging through the basement of the museum made a find that was to drastically alter all concepts of ancient science. A 6-inch-high pot of bright yellow clay dating back two millennia contained a cylinder of sheet-copper 5 inches by 1.5 inches. The edge of the copper cylinder was soldered with a 60-40 lead-tin alloy comparable to today's best solder. The bottom of the cylinder was capped with a crimped-in copper disk and sealed with bitumen or asphalt. Another insulating layer of asphalt sealed the top and also held in place an iron rod suspended into the center of the copper cylinder. The rod showed evidence of having been corroded with acid. With a background in mechanics, Dr. Konig recognized this configuration was not a chance arrangement, but that the clay pot was nothing less than an ancient electric battery.
THE STRANGE ELECTRON TUBES FROM DENDERA
In one chamber, No. 17, the topmost panel, depicts Egyptian priests operating what look like oblong tubes, performing various specific tasks. Each tube has a serpent extending its full length inside. Swedish engineer Henry Kjellson, in his book Forvunen Teknik (Disappeared Technology), noted that in the hieroglyphs these serpents are translated as seref, which means to glow, and believes it refers to some form of electrical current. In the scene, to the extreme right appears a box on top where sits an image of the Egyptian god Atum-Ra, which identifies the box as the energy source. Attached to the box is a braided cable which electromagnetics engineer Alfred D. Bielek identified as virtually an exact copy of engineering illustrations used today for representing a bundle of conducting electrical wires. The cable runs from the box the full length of the floor of the picture, and terminates at both the ends and at the bases of the tube objects. These objects each rest on a pillar called a djed, which Bielek identified as a high-voltage insulator.
FLIGHT IN ANCIENT EGYPT
In 1898 a curious winged object was discovered in the tomb of Pa-di-Imen in north Saqqara, Egypt dated to about 200 B.C. Because the birth of modern aviation was still several years away, when the strange artifact was sent to the Cairo Museum, it was catalogued and then shelved among other miscellaneous items to gather dust.
A JET FROM SOUTH AMERICA
In 1954 the government of Colombia sent part of its collection of ancient gold artifacts on a U. S. tour. Emmanuel Staubs, one of America's leading jewelers, was commissioned to cast reproductions of six of the objects. Fifteen years later one was given to biologist-zoologist Ivan T. Sanderson for analysis. After a thorough examination and consulting a number of experts, Sanderson's mind-boggling conclusion was that the object is a model of a high-speed aircraft at least a thousand years old.
WHO SHOT NEANDERTHAL MAN?
The Museum of Natural History in London displays an early Paleolithic skull, dated at 38,000 years old, and excavated in 1921 in modern Zambia. On the left side of the skull is a perfectly round hole nearly a third of an inch in diameter. Curiously, there are no radial split-lines around the hole or other marks that should have been left by a cold weapon, such as an arrow or spear. Opposite the hole, the cranium is shattered, and reconstruction of the fragments show the skull was blown from the inside out, as from a rifle shot. In fact, any slower a projectile would have produced neither the neat hole nor the shattering effect. Forensic experts who have examined the skull agree the cranial damage could not have been caused by anything but a high-speed projectile, purposely fired at the prehistoric victim, with intent to kill.
MANUFACTURED METALS MILLIONS OF YEARS OLD
For the past three decades miners at the Wonderstone Silver Mine near Ottosdal in the Western Transvaal, South Africa, have been extracting out of deep rock several strange metallic spheroids. So far at least 200 have been found. In 1979, several were closely examined by J.R. McIver, professor of geology at the University of Witwaterstand in Johannesburg, and geologist professor Andries Bisschoff of Potsshefstroom University.
One of the key differences between catastrophism and uniformitarianism is that to function, uniformitarianism requires the assumption of vast timelines, whereas catastrophism can function with or without assumptions of long timelines.
Today most geologists combine catastrophist and uniformitarianist standpoints, taking the view that Earth's history is a slow, gradual story punctuated by occasional natural catastrophic events that have affected Earth and its inhabitants.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Several historical records claim that Indian culture has been around for literally tens of thousands of years. Yet, until 1920, all the "experts" agreed that the origins of the Indian civilization should be placed within a few hundred years of Alexander the Great's expedition to the subcontinent in 327 BC. However, that was before several great cities like Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro (Mound of the Dead), Kot Diji, Kalibanga and Lothal were discovered and excavated. Lothal, a former port city now miles from the ocean, was discovered in Gujarat, western India, just in the late 20th century.20 These discoveries have forced archaeologists to push back the dates for the origin of Indian civilization by thousands of years--in line with what the Indians themselves have insisted all along.
A wonder to modern-day researchers, the cities were highly developed and advanced. The way that each city was laid out in regular blocks, with streets crossing each other at right angles and the entire city laid out in sections, gives archaeologists cause to believe that the cities were conceived as a whole before they were built--a remarkable early example of city planning. Even more remarkable is that the plumbing/sewage systems throughout the large cities were so sophisticated--superior to those found in Pakistan, India and many Asian countries today. Sewers were covered, and most homes had private toilets and running water. Furthermore, the water and sewage systems were kept well separated.
Incredible as it may seem, archaeologists have found evidence in India and Pakistan, indicating that some cities were destroyed in atomic explosions. When excavations of Harappa and Mohenjo-Daro reached the street level, they discovered skeletons scattered about the cities, many holding hands and sprawling in the streets as if some instant, horrible doom had taken place. People were just lying, unburied, in the streets of the city. And these skeletons are thousands of years old, even by traditional archaeological standards. What could cause such a thing? Why did the bodies not decay or get eaten by wild animals? Furthermore, there is no apparent cause of a physically violent death.
These skeletons are among the most radioactive ever found, on par with those at Nagasaki and Hiroshima. At one site, Soviet scholars found a skeleton which had a radioactive level 50 times greater than normal
Other cities have been found in northern India that show indications of explosions of great magnitude. One such city, found between the Ganges and the mountains of Rajmahal, seems to have been subjected to intense heat. Huge masses of walls and foundations of the ancient city are fused together, literally vitrified! And since there is no indication of a volcanic eruption at Mohenjo-Daro or at the other cities, the intense heat to melt clay vessels can only be explained by an atomic blast or some other unknown weapon.28, 29, 30 The cities were wiped out entirely.
Originally posted by snafu7700
well if you find it, please feel free to post it (but make sure you credit whichever member originally found the article).
Streets and cultivated fields would be the next to go. Within 20 years village streets and rural roads would have vanished under a matting of weeds; fields would be overgrown within months. Urban streets would take a little longer, but even in huge man-made sprawls, such as London and Birmingham, plants would have taken over in about 50 years.