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6 Muslim Imams removed from flight.

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posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:02 PM
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Half_minded...thank you. I appreciate that type of post a lot more (the one with the sources...not the STFU). I'm not being sarcastic either. The US is not a perfect country, we are usually on the leading edge of cultures clashing and running into conflict.




posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:12 PM
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Originally posted by Atomic
Half_minded...thank you. I appreciate that type of post a lot more (the one with the sources...not the STFU). I'm not being sarcastic either. The US is not a perfect country, we are usually on the leading edge of cultures clashing and running into conflict.



Thanks, I appreciate a post without cuss words too. I am trying to read the news stories from difffernt sources and trying to make sense of what happened. I am only analyzing the actual facts we know are true. I am disregrading the word of passenger VS Imam coz we dunno who is lying. In my opinion, the other facts are enough to show that the imams did nothing wrong to be humiliated like that.

The only thing I actually support was the rescreening of every passenger on the plane. That was something sesnsible and necessary. But not letting the imams fly??? Did they have weapons?? Did they equipment or materials to cause harm????? None of the stories seem to say that they did. So why were they kicked off the plane?



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:18 PM
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Originally posted by half_minded
BTW, prove to me 19 muslims caused 9/11 and I will STFU. Until then U STFU!!!



What kind of proof would you accept? Either way, I am just gonna be honest. I don't care if I am wrong or right, if I were put on a plane with a group of muslims that were criticizing my country (even if I agreed), that didn't have any baggage, I wouldn't be comfortable on the flight either. Sorry, just being honest. I would be on edge, like many others I'm sure, and ready to tackle them at the drop of a dime if they so much as blinked funny. Of course there are people that won't agree with me, that's cool.

It's a crappy world we live in now....



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:27 PM
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I think I also need to step up and post this since I posted about the 12 religious workers being busted on visa fraud:


Two imams jailed last week on charges of religious visa fraud were granted bail yesterday as about 100 Muslim, Christian and Jewish leaders rallied outside a federal courthouse to support the clerics - who supporters insist were unfairly targeted.


news.bostonherald.com...

I don't know if they're guilty or not, but it is nice to know that differing religious believers in the US are willing to rally together when we think there has been an injustice.

The US isn't all bad.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by half_minded
BTW, prove to me 19 muslims caused 9/11 and I will STFU. Until then U STFU!!!



What kind of proof would you accept? Either way, I am just gonna be honest. I don't care if I am wrong or right, if I were put on a plane with a group of muslims that were criticizing my country (even if I agreed), that didn't have any baggage, I wouldn't be comfortable on the flight either. Sorry, just being honest. I would be on edge, like many others I'm sure, and ready to tackle them at the drop of a dime if they so much as blinked funny. Of course there are people that won't agree with me, that's cool.

It's a crappy world we live in now....


But they were still refused after the screening? I am merely asking what was it exactly that provided PROOF that they were dangerous and were of any harm to other passengers on the flight. If there was no PROOF then why werent they allowed. How can they be refused their right to fly as paying customers just based on looks??? Do you arrest people who look like drug addicts??? Do you arrest dangerous looking people for crimes or do you look for hard facts first???? What exactly was the PROOF the police had that they handcuffed the men and took them off the plane. What PROOF did airliine have AFTER screening that still made it unsafe to let the imams fly??????



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:31 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
I don't care if I am wrong or right, if I were put on a plane with a group of muslims that were criticizing my country (even if I agreed), that didn't have any baggage, I wouldn't be comfortable on the flight either.


No checked baggage. They may have had carry on. And either way, that's something you don't know.

It sems at this point you don't want to be on a plane with Arabs at all.


Sorry, just being honest. I would be on edge, like many others I'm sure, and ready to tackle them at the drop of a dime if they so much as blinked funny. Of course there are people that won't agree with me, that's cool.

It's a crappy world we live in now....


No need to be sorry, I prefer an honest racist to one who hides it beneath a facade of patriotism national pride.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:32 PM
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sorry double post.

[edit on 22-11-2006 by half_minded]



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by half_minded
But they were still refused after the screening? I am merely asking what was it exactly that provided PROOF that they were dangerous and were of any harm to other passengers on the flight. If there was no PROOF then why werent they allowed. How can they be refused their right to fly as paying customers just based on looks??? Do you arrest people who look like drug addicts??? Do you arrest dangerous looking people for crimes or do you look for hard facts first???? What exactly was the PROOF the police had that they handcuffed the men and took them off the plane. What PROOF did airliine have AFTER screening that still made it unsafe to let the imams fly??????


When it's crunch time, proof means squat. We can all sit here on the ground and have an intelligent debate on what constitutes a threat all day, but when you're in the air, or about to be and you feel like your @ss is on the line, instinct kicks in. And even if the men who carried out 9/11 were US government agents, they were still at least pretending to be muslim, so a group of muslims on a plane talking bad about America (even praying) are going to make people who aren't well versed in their culture worry. Who's to say they weren't government agents looking to carry out another 'false flag' operation? Makes sense to me if they are brazen enough to start bagging on America before boarding a plane, they wanted some kind of reaction or to create a motive for their actions, and if they were, one might think they would be able to get weapons on board....



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
It sems at this point you don't want to be on a plane with Arabs at all.


No, that's not the case. Arabs don't bother me at all. It's groups of young muslim men flying together that would make me cautious, and groups of muslim men criticizing the government before boarding a plane would VERY MUCH concern me. If they were intelligent they wouldn't do that, so they are just trying to get a reaction, and they would get one.



No need to be sorry, I prefer an honest racist to one who hides it beneath a facade of patriotism national pride.


Well, I'm not a racist, but you can call me one all you like.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:53 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
Makes sense to me if they are brazen enough to start bagging on America before boarding a plane,...


The news reports say that the passenger accused them of bagging on America. Hwo do you know it is true and they were actually talking s**t about america?
MAybe they were just discussing the war in Iraq and opposing it. What happened to freedom of speech now??? None of the news reports say that they were actually threatening anyone or talking about any attack plans. Im sorry but your argument is baseless. You said it yourself, "IF they are brazen......". Thats a big IF which we do not know if its true or not.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:54 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
No, that's not the case. Arabs don't bother me at all. It's groups of young muslim men flying together that would make me cautious, and groups of muslim men criticizing the government before boarding a plane would VERY MUCH concern me. If they were intelligent they wouldn't do that, so they are just trying to get a reaction, and they would get one.


Would you also cross the street if you saw a group of young black men? How about a group speaking like the ones on BET?



Well, I'm not a racist, but you can call me one all you like.


It's easy to say you aren't one, but your words tell a very different story.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 01:57 PM
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Originally posted by 27jd
It's groups of young muslim men flying together that would make me cautious, and groups of muslim men criticizing the government before boarding a plane would VERY MUCH concern me.


Well it should not. This is what we call descrimination. And it is wrong. Ofcourse you wont realize it until you are on the recieving end.

And by your logic; in my country if your looks and opinions concern me then I have a right to discriminate against you??? I have a right to humiliate you, handcuff you and kick you off a plane??? All this without any proof???



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:02 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Would you also cross the street if you saw a group of young black men? How about a group speaking like the ones on BET?


I do all the time, and I'm well versed in BET speak, lol. But I'd certainly be on guard if I heard them speaking about hating white people loud enough for me to hear on purpose. And we're talking about a physical attack on me, and I can defend myself fine, but there's nothing I can do about a plane crash, it may be a more emotive concern, but we're all only human...




It's easy to say you aren't one, but your words tell a very different story.


It sure is. And again, call me what you like.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:11 PM
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Originally posted by half_minded
The news reports say that the passenger accused them of bagging on America. Hwo do you know it is true and they were actually talking s**t about america?


I wasn't there, neither were you. There's no way we can be sure, and again, when you're in the air it doesn't matter.



MAybe they were just discussing the war in Iraq and opposing it.


Maybe, and I oppose it right along with them, but they can pick a better time to have that discussion.



What happened to freedom of speech now???


It's still there. And if they are insensitive enough to have such a polarizing discussion before boarding a plane, I have every right not to fly with them. It would be just as much my right as it's there's to speak, but the airlines don't owe anybody anything and flying is not a right, and if every other passenger is gonna bail because they have a bad feeling or are uncomfortable, it's their right to refuse service to whomever. And it's the muslim world's right to boycott the airline, everybody has rights, but nobody should be forced to fly if they're uncomfortable, even if you disagree with the reasoning....



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420



Well, I'm not a racist, but you can call me one all you like.


It's easy to say you aren't one, but your words tell a very different story.


Speaking of Hasty Generalizations!



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:15 PM
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Have to put this all in perspective....

In this post 911 era, a group of Muslim men, travelling together, is going to be suspicious (regardless of how you feel about stereotyping, you'd do it too if flying). Add to this a standing prayer prior to the flight, and yes, sorry folks, but you're going to make people nervous...

This would make ME nervous, and I've lived in the Mideast (as some of you know).

1. Terrorists generally do NOT sit together. This is so they can take up strategic locations on the plane. The fact that these men sat separately isn't a relief, it's a MAJOR red flag...regardless of it not being intentional.

2. While the muslims may be upset at the lack of education about their ways, they must also shoulder some of the blame for not getting the message out themselves. When 911 happened, many muslim leaders were silent or barely whispered. Instead, they should have tried to generate some positive press and avoid a backlash, and educate folks about their ways.

Had these men been on my flight, I'd have watched them like a hawk. I also would have been sure to strike up a conversation with the nearest one, just to guage their state of mind.

Sorry, but I cannot fault the airline or the crew's reaction here.

The best remedy would have been for the airline to rescreen their security, offer them first class upgrades (assuming they weren't already there), and a travel voucher and/or miles as compensation.

Back to what I've said on earlier cases of this....

DON'T FREAK OUT THE OTHER PASSENGERS WHEN ABOUT TO GET ON A PLANE!
This could have been African American, White, Asian, etc. men, but a bunch of guys standing together, praying before boarding, is going to get people suspicious, period! Add the fact that they are then of an ethnic group responsible for one of the most heinous terrorist acts in history, and yeah, sorry, but you're going to put people on edge....


With most airlines teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, it is of utmost importance for passengers to feel safe while flying. This need supercedes any desire for expressing religion, minor inconveniences, etc. and air travelers should be quite aware of this by now....



But they were still refused after the screening? I am merely asking what was it exactly that provided PROOF that they were dangerous and were of any harm to other passengers on the flight. If there was no PROOF then why werent they allowed. How can they be refused their right to fly as paying customers just based on looks???


Flying (like driving) is not a RIGHT, it's a priveledge. That priveledge comes with certain rules, requirements, and a code of behavior. As a paid service, you can bet they would be refunded payment if denied the service.



Do you arrest people who look like drug addicts??? Do you arrest dangerous looking people for crimes or do you look for hard facts first???? What exactly was the PROOF the police had that they handcuffed the men and took them off the plane. What PROOF did airliine have AFTER screening that still made it unsafe to let the imams fly????


No, you don't arrest them, but you do (and can) deny folks access to certain places, services, etc. if a perceived threat is there (regardless of whether the threat is real). My toenail clipper is no real threat, but I can't take it on a plane.

Again...if you fly...don't do ANYTHING that can be perceived as making others nervous. It's your responsibility as a passenger, for the priveledge of flight.



Refusing to get off the plane combined with one way tickets and no baggage alone qualifies as reasonable cause in my book no matter what anyone says.


Even more evidence that shows this was a planned spectacle, and not some random incident. I'm a white male, and recently I missed my flight to Jamaica, and had to take a later one. My wife went ahead (and with our luggage). So, when I flew, I had no checked bags, and folks, I got pulled for EVERY random security check, so yes, this is a suspicious circumstance (no checked bags) and does raise some more red flags.

Personally, this appears to be a planned incident, and as such, only hurts, not helps, their cause.

[edit on 22-11-2006 by Gazrok]



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:19 PM
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Originally posted by half_minded
Well it should not. This is what we call descrimination. And it is wrong. Ofcourse you wont realize it until you are on the recieving end.


We are all on the recieving end of discrimination at some point, again, it's a crappy world we live in.



And by your logic; in my country if your looks and opinions concern me then I have a right to discriminate against you??? I have a right to humiliate you, handcuff you and kick you off a plane??? All this without any proof???


If you took my looks and opinions as a threat to your life, and if I were in a group of other young men like me, and your country was currently under a threat (percieved or not) by groups of young men like me and I was such an @ss as to be discussing loudly my opinions that would almost certainly ignite your concern that we may try and murder you, YES, you have every right. And I would have brought it on myself by discussing something that I would have to be a complete idiot not to know would cause you concern.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:22 PM
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Originally posted by Atomic
Speaking of Hasty Generalizations!



Don't know what you mean by that. He said that seeing Muslim men on a plane warrented their ejection from said plane.

He said Muslim men make him nervous, for no other reason than them being Muslim.

that is racism and a Hasty Generalization on his part.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Don't know what you mean by that. He said that seeing Muslim men on a plane warrented their ejection from said plane.

He said Muslim men make him nervous, for no other reason than them being Muslim.

that is racism and a Hasty Generalization on his part.


Yes, I said all that just because they are muslim. That's it. There were no other factors involved at all.



posted on Nov, 22 2006 @ 02:31 PM
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Your only other reasons were that they were upset about the war in Iraq.

Arab + (Iraq discussion) = justified prejudice

White + (iraq discussion) = nothing to worry about




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