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6 Muslim Imams removed from flight.

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posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 05:50 PM
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I've been away from this discussion for a few days with a high fever (probably brought on by the prejudice and ignorance that I've seen).

Simply put, there is no logical reason for these people to have been removed from the plane. Maybe there is the appeal to the majority, but I think we should know from experience that that is no reason to do something (remember Jim Crow?)

And just because a place isn't public does not mean that a person's basic human rights to not be discriminated against should be infringed. Of course it won't matter to most, because most are in the majority. Most haven't, and won't experience discrimination based on race or religion. The apathetic view held by most is pretty dispicable, and disgusting IMO.

I know it's been used to death, but I think it applies here. I also think it needs to be heard more the more apathetic people become


They came first for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.


[edit on 26-11-2006 by Rasobasi420]




posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by Spawwwn
think of it this way, lets say a radical christian group was praying, but sayin things like "bless us, don't let us burn with the gays and blacks if the plane goes down" or something like that. think they wouldn't get kicked off the plane?


Are you fluent in the Imams' language that you can, without a single doubt in your mind, tell me straight faced that they were praying for such a thing?

And even *if* they were -- so what? If I heard a Christian mutter such a prayer, so what? Let them have their faith! Who am I, or you, or anyone, to tell them to shut their mouths?

Unless the Christian was insulting another passenger to their face and instigating a physical dispute, I see no reason to kick them off. None. I may not agree with their words, and I might engage them in conversation to try and understand their point of view. But I'm not going to try and be slick by passing a note to the attendant (afraid of reprisal, afraid to be called out on my choice!?), nor tell them to get off the plane because their very presence makes me uncomfortable.



or what about a guy who was really drunk, and loud, and obnoxious? even if he wasn't violent, what if he was talking about socially inappropriate stuff like overly sexual stuff..or even insulting people, as drunks sometimes do.

so your saying that those people shouldn't get kicked off the plane either? because to me...the muslims, and those 2 examples i mentioned are one in the same.


Well, to me they are not the same. A comparison of religious prayer to drunken behavior -- these are not parallel.

In fact, if there was such a drunken man on the plane I flew on, I would have bought in a few more drinks so that he'd pass out faster -- so long as he is not inflicting any physical harm on anyone, or digging into one person via degrading insults, I do not see the problem.

And if I had a child with me ---- what a *perfect* example of how NOT to act in public!!



The point is that you can't speak certain ways in public, at certain times because you will scare people, and it's not appropriate. flying is a scary thing...which has become even scarier since 911.


That first sentence is open to such misuse and abuse... which is exactly what is happening.

Whatever happened to simply walking away? Goodness forbid anyone actually stepped over to them and engaged them in conversation, trying to understand what their actions meant!

The only way this problem is going to be solved is by stepping outside of our personal comfort zones and trying to understand a situation from multiple points of view.

Automatically assuming guilt based on appearance/speech is a knee-jerk reaction based on irrational fear and illogical presuppositions -- such a path will *never* bring *any* resolution to the problem.




So even if it's not right, you have to look at the minority vs the majority. The majority of passengears aren't gonna want to ride with a racist christian group, or an offensive and loud disruptive drunk.


To a point you are correct.

However, I do not think that the majority is inherently and undeniably correct simply because it is the majority. (I *might* reconsider this statement -- especially if they could provide logic-based reasons!)



And they won't want to ride with some muslims who are speaking in a language they can't understand, about to board a vehicle that has some very bad memories attached to it.


If people are *that* scared to fly -- then don't fly.

I accepted that some fundamentalist (didn't even limit it to muslim) might very well bomb the plane I flew on. It *might* happen. Just the same (as I said before) the plane *might* be hit by lightning, or the pilots *might* have heart attacks, or some random piece of equipment fails...

I accepted these possibilities the moment I said 'yes, I will go'.
I accept the fact that I will die -- to live in fear/terror of possible negative outcomes is to lead a pointless life! (If, indeed, such a fearful person ever truly lives!)



It's not americans fault that places like iran and iraq are full of radical musim violence..but it is a fact that they ARE filled with that type of violence.


I will grant you this, if you grant that most (if not all) countries, *including America!*, have radical groups that are prone to violence. Simply because they have not recently acted out (in a way that makes the headlines of all the newspapers) does not negate their presence, nor their twisted logic.



That's why i said you can't fully trust a religion, that is producing those kinds of violent ideals...it's sad, but unfortunatley it's a fact that muslims in this country have to accept.


And this is why I keep saying that we need to look into the original teachings of ALL religions -- misinterpretation and re-interpretation throughout the years (usually when these ideas were transformed into texts & power structures) has muddled the true teachings of the prophets. Regardless of whether or not the people/prophets were divinely inspired, their original teachings are well worth the study, and on the whole would provide some seriously valuable principles that *all* human beings could abide by. (Ex.: Jesus taught radical egalitarianism, God=justice; Muhammed taught equity, justice, and compassion.) These original teachings are based on peace, equality, and justice!!!



it's the crazy radical muslims that are at fault. they should be the ones blamed, especially by other muslims...because those radical muslims are making life harder for regular muslims here in america.


EXACTLY!!!! Which is why we (humanity) SHOULD NOT immediately assume guilt upon the rest of the Muslims in the world!!

(And BTW, everyone needs to assume their share of the responsibility and blame of being at fault for automatically damning an entire group of people based *solely* on the actions of a handful of a few...)



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 06:08 PM
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I once again bring up the logical fallacy known as hasty generalization in which a small percentage of a full population is used to judge an entire population.

If you want your laws based on logical fallacies because it makes you feel better, then I feel sad for you. May I suggest the next step to be burning Mislims at the stake for turning you into toads.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 09:02 PM
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I understand what you saying diseria, but unfortunatley people are not gonna wanna step outside of their box and try and talk with the imams or anything like that. This is just a fact of life we all gotta deal with. The world isn’t ripe for open conversation just yet, so people are just gonna have to deal with some restrictions.

Let me put it another way....take the fact that prayer isn’t allowed in public schools. It’s because people don’t want their kids exposed to other’s beliefs. Yeah there are other reasons....but lets just say the one I just mentioned is the main reason.

Isn’t it fair to say that people shouldn’t have to be exposed to others BELIEFS in a PUBLIC place? Especially when those beliefs are associated with negativity? I mean maybe you are very liberal...but I sure as heck wouldn’t want to sit next to the drunk or the crazy radical christians that I mentioned...

Yes people should be allowed to believe in, and worship whatever way they want. But religious practices should be PRIVATE. I mean I think anyone would have been weirded out even if a christian group was sitting there praying for a long time....

But you can’t just be like “well if they are that scared then don’t fly”...because the americans aren’t the ones who made it that way. Everyone knows flying is dangerous....and it comes with risks. But understand that after 911, muslims are gonna have to watch theyself and be more respectful to american values until their people overseas learn how to act peacefully.

lets even take it a step further. lets say that there was a group who was wearing confederate flags on their head...and they were saying racist prayers or something...they would haev been booted off the flight with good cause. the point is that even though u can belive what u want to belive, you don't always have the right to express those beliefs in a public place if it offending others.

true they probly were just praying, but for the average american...seeing a group of people that look like the terrorists, praying before they get on a plane, is gonna send off some bad vibes.

so why should the majority of people have to ride with them and feel uncomfortable? i'll even go as far as to say, they shouldn't have been removed from the flight...just told that they could not do that practice because it was scaring/offending people.

i think it's valid if a group of passengears is being scared by another group, than the offended party should be removed....no matter what the offense. ok this time it was prayer, if the guy was rude, smelled bad, or was offending the other passengears in a way..then regarldless of what he was doing he should be removed.

like i said this is not a muslim country nor will it ever be...so they will have to adjust and deal with it or get outta america.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 10:51 PM
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Originally posted by Spawwwn
I understand what you saying diseria, but unfortunatley people are not gonna wanna step outside of their box and try and talk with the imams or anything like that.


The reporters should talk and get the story out. But even then, who would you believe, the imam or the passenger? We will need to use our own logic and judgment to figure that out.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
This is just a fact of life we all gotta deal with. The world isn’t ripe for open conversation just yet, so people are just gonna have to deal with some restrictions.


I dont get what you are saying. Are you saying that free speech is limited?


Originally posted by Spawwwn
Let me put it another way....take the fact that prayer isn’t allowed in public schools. It’s because people don’t want their kids exposed to other’s beliefs. Yeah there are other reasons....but lets just say the one I just mentioned is the main reason. Isn’t it fair to say that people shouldn’t have to be exposed to others BELIEFS in a PUBLIC place?


If thats the attitude you will have then there is never any chance of progress. If we do not expose each other to other beliefs, we will never understand them. How many of you ever voluntarily tried to research Islam? How many of you base your judgements on stuff u have seen on news and TV and heard from government?


Originally posted by Spawwwn
Especially when those beliefs are associated with negativity?


Which one exactly?


Originally posted by Spawwwn
I mean maybe you are very liberal...but I sure as heck wouldn’t want to sit next to the drunk or the crazy radical christians that I mentioned...


You are comparing apples and oranges.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
Yes people should be allowed to believe in, and worship whatever way they want. But religious practices should be PRIVATE. I mean I think anyone would have been weirded out even if a christian group was sitting there praying for a long time....


Prayer was private. Only 3 of them prayed together but still among themselves. They did not ask anyone to look at them, listen to them or join them. They prayed in their own space in the terminal. The afternoon prayer takes around total of 10 minutes which is not a long time.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
But you can’t just be like “well if they are that scared then don’t fly”...because the americans aren’t the ones who made it that way.


R u sure? I believe otherwise.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
Everyone knows flying is dangerous....and it comes with risks. But understand that after 911, muslims are gonna have to watch theyself and be more respectful to american values until their people overseas learn how to act peacefully.


That is the most absurd generalization. I agree there are muslim terrorist groups. But many groups who are labelled terrorists are actually just fighting for 'freedom'.
If US kepts its nose in its own land then lot of these 'terrorists' would not be acting like this. And I can easily negate your generalization with another one. US has caused the death of more people than all terrorists groups combined.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
lets even take it a step further. lets say that there was a group who was wearing confederate flags on their head


The imams did not wear any flags or items. They were wearing their traditional dress which says nothing except that they are arab or muslims. No agenda there.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
...and they were saying racist prayers or something


Wats a racist prayer? Provide proof that the imams were having a 'racist' prayer.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
...they would have been booted off the flight with good cause. the point is that even though u can belive what u want to belive, you don't always have the right to express those beliefs in a public place if it offending others.


Exposing ur genitalia is offensive. Shouting out curse words and racial slurs is offensive. Acting out sexually is offensive. Saying ur daily afternoon prayer is NOT offensive, It should not be unless you=hitler and muslims=jews. Get it?
Unless you really hate ALL muslims and Islam, muslim prayer should not be offensice to you. If it is, then you can look away but you cannot ask them to stop.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
true they probly were just praying, but for the average american...seeing a group of people that look like the terrorists, praying before they get on a plane, is gonna send off some bad vibes.


Look like terrorists? Do all germans look nazi to you? Another absurd generalization. Millions of muslims wear the same dress and say the same prayers everyday. Are they all terrorists?


Originally posted by Spawwwn
so why should the majority of people have to ride with them and feel uncomfortable?


Then dont. Get off the plane yourself.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 11:04 PM
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Originally posted by Spawwwn
i'll even go as far as to say, they shouldn't have been removed from the flight...just told that they could not do that practice because it was scaring/offending people.


But they were not. Telling them to stop would have been wrong too. They could have been asked nicely to tone it down or something. But instead, the whole fiasco started after they went through multiple security checks and were sitting in their chairs and about to fly. And how? By a note passed to the flight attendant. And they were kicked without questioning. I agree with the rescreening, if they need to do it for their own satisfaction. But even after that, when the imams were found harmless, they were not allowed to fly even the next day on the same airline. I do not see why is it hard to see that they were discriminated against only because of their looks.
You can justify it with being scared and careful at first, but after rescreening you cannot keep using the same reason when it is clearly found that your doubts are unfounded.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
i think it's valid if a group of passengears is being scared by another group, than the offended party should be removed....no matter what the offense. ok this time it was prayer,


I already answered that one.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
if the guy was rude, smelled bad, or was offending the other passengears in a way..then regarldless of what he was doing he should be removed.


But how exactly were the imams offending people? By looking like how millions of muslims look??? By praying like millions of muslims do???
Those are not offensive things to do unless you completely hate all muslims. In which case, you ahve no right to remove them because you are the one who has a personal problem with them and you should be the one to leave.


Originally posted by Spawwwn
like i said this is not a muslim country nor will it ever be...so they will have to adjust and deal with it or get outta america.


So if you are muslim in America, you have to deal with people judging you and discriminating agaisnt you? You words carry less weight than the words of non-muslims? You have no say in a situation in which the non-muslim is just 'nervous' by your apperance? You should happily accept people treating you like a terrorist at all times? You have to give up your faith completely to not be labelled a terrorsist??? Maybe muslims should get out of America and America should get out of muslim countries.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 11:18 PM
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I believe this article is relevant to the central point I was trying to make earlier in regards to unfounded fears about terrorism.



www.cnn.com...

The problems start even before you're fully awake. There's the fall out of bed that kills 600 Americans each year. There's the early-morning heart attack, which is 40 percent more common than those that strike later in the day.

There's the fatal plunge down the stairs, the bite of sausage that gets lodged in your throat, the tumble on the slippery sidewalk as you leave the house, the high-speed automotive pinball game that is your daily commute.

Shadowed by peril as we are, you would think we'd get pretty good at distinguishing the risks likeliest to do us in from the ones that are statistical long shots. But you would be wrong.


If we're talking about the needs of the many, we have to decide whether we want to include illogical, nonsensical needs.

What about the 'needs' of racists and xenophobes/homophobes who have an irrational fear of groups less likely to cause them injury or death than a jettisoned poop posicle from the heavens?

America is insane, at this point, and is not thinking straight. Maybe it's always been that way, I dunno. I know the sleep deprivation, drug saturation, constant auditory and visual stimulation don't help...

Anyway, we can't coddle irrational people to help them overcome their irrational fears. Sooner or later they're going to have to realize that we live in a dangerous world, and the only way to make it safer is to be discerning and to analyze the risks in a methodical, logical way.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 08:57 AM
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Originally posted by Spawwwn
I understand what you saying diseria, but unfortunatley people are not gonna wanna step outside of their box and try and talk with the imams or anything like that. This is just a fact of life we all gotta deal with. The world isn’t ripe for open conversation just yet, so people are just gonna have to deal with some restrictions.


Ah, and there lies the rub, the very crux of the problem -- people don't want to. Children don't *want* to share their toys, and my dog never *wanted* to give up his chewy. That does not necessarily make them, and their selfish actions, correct!

I understand that it will take time. (To be honest: I'm working on that understanding. Living in an immediate gratification society makes it very hard to instill any kind of change - be it public, or within myself.) However, I maintain that if people *tried*, made even the teenyist efforts, we would see some change.

If the world isn't ripe for conversation, people simply talking to one another - then democracy is a snowball falling to the deepest depths of hell. Communication *is* the foundation of democracy -- every single person's opinion matters! I love ATS for this - I may not agree with your thoughts or words, but I greatly appreciate hearing them because it allows for this: open conversation.

I am, for most intents and purposes, a hermit. But, when I worked with the public (at the local gas station), I learned a lot because I got to openly talk to many people who disagreed with me on this or that. But, we were able to talk, to discuss, to *at least* understand where the other person was coming from, even if we disagreed.
Talking is what humans *do*! It's what got us here today! Without it, we'd ALL be living in caves grunting at each other! So why are we so afraid to give the benefit of the doubt and talk?

The one time I got beaten up was by a black kid. Should I have been forever-more scared of black people?



Isn’t it fair to say that people shouldn’t have to be exposed to others BELIEFS in a PUBLIC place?


To a point, I understand. However, how else will people learn about the way that other people lead their lives if not in public? It is public territory - it's open to everyone, for everyone. We see each other come out of our personal bubbles and are given chances to interact, to meet, to shake each other's hands. That's the whole point of public space.



Yes people should be allowed to believe in, and worship whatever way they want. But religious practices should be PRIVATE. I mean I think anyone would have been weirded out even if a christian group was sitting there praying for a long time....


Tell that to the Jehovah's witnesses who come at 8am banging on doors! Or to the people who stand on soap boxes with a megaphone preeching the end of the world! Or the man who has biblical sayings written all over his car and clothing!

It'd be disruptive if an entire mosque/church of people sat out in the middle of a street and prayed. Or if they plopped down in the middle of a mall, or actually, physically impeded on other people's space by getting in faces and waving pamplets. These men did not do that.

(BTW, no, I don't think anyone would have said anything if a group of Christians sat in a corner and prayed. Why? because that's the popular religion in this country.)



But understand that after 911, muslims are gonna have to watch theyself and be more respectful to american values until their people overseas learn how to act peacefully.


I'll understand this when people HERE learn how to act, period.

Have you ever sat out on a main street and watched people for a long period of time? I have. I sat in downtown chicago and watched people, the way they treated each other. They were rude, inconsiderate, uncivil and disrespectful. The nicest people I met were kids (because they didn't know any different) and the homeless -- the people who aren't really 'people', until some horrific wrong is committed against them. (Yes, I understand that children & the homeless are inherently people -- but they are not outwardly treated that way, especially by the public. THAT NEEDS TO CHANGE! Radical egalitarianism!!)



the point is that even though u can belive what u want to belive, you don't always have the right to express those beliefs in a public place if it offending others.


A woman was offended when she walked into a sex shop. The windows were covered in foil, and she had to actually go *in* the shop before she saw anything. Now, instead of walking out, and away, and vowing never to shop there - she had it closed down.

Sense made? None.

Just because she didn't like it did not give her the right to shut it down.



so why should the majority of people have to ride with them and feel uncomfortable? i'll even go as far as to say, they shouldn't have been removed from the flight...just told that they could not do that practice because it was scaring/offending people.


While I would have disagreed with it if I'd have seen it, I would at least be able to understand.



i think it's valid if a group of passengears is being scared by another group, than the offended party should be removed....no matter what the offense.


By your logic, if I'm offended that several blacks are on the plane, it's okay to have them removed? Or if I'm disgusted because there's a fat person present? Or that several preppies can have me booted from the plane because I dress differently? ....methinks not.

If there is a *logical* reason why someone's behavior and actions are publically inappropriate, I'd have to conceed... But because *I* am made uncomfortable by their presence is NOT a good enough reason.



like i said this is not a muslim country nor will it ever be...so they will have to adjust and deal with it or get outta america.


Careful with that. Those words have started wars...
This country, at least in principle, openly welcomes people from other countries -- we're the salad bowl, or melting pot, or whatever the latest image is.


Food for thought: Why is it that we're not terrified of politicians and business-people? Surely they've done more to screw people over than any fundamentalist radical.... and yet we're not scared of them. why not?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:06 AM
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Originally posted by half_minded

Originally posted by Spawwwn
Let me put it another way....take the fact that prayer isn’t allowed in public schools. It’s because people don’t want their kids exposed to other’s beliefs. Yeah there are other reasons....but lets just say the one I just mentioned is the main reason. Isn’t it fair to say that people shouldn’t have to be exposed to others BELIEFS in a PUBLIC place?


If thats the attitude you will have then there is never any chance of progress. If we do not expose each other to other beliefs, we will never understand them. How many of you ever voluntarily tried to research Islam? How many of you base your judgements on stuff u have seen on news and TV and heard from government?



I propose that everyone do some learning. I've just begun reading Karen Armstrong's Islam: A Short History. While I do not necessarily think that it is *thee* book to turn to, it provides at least a beginning insight into the Islamic culture/Muslim faith.

Likewise, take some time to read through The Qu'ran. I know that any translation will automatically lose or shift the meaning, but this site provides 3 translations.

I am reading both of these, and hope that others will join in such educational ventures with me.

How better to have an open discussion about cultures & religious beliefs than with an educated group of people?

How better to *try* to turn the table and understand other people by learning about them?

How better to edge ourselves out of our comfort zones than to simply learn?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by half_minded
It should not be unless you=hitler and muslims=jews. Get it?


You, too -- be careful with that.

While I understand the point you're trying to get across, there are many *better* ways of making the point that don't go to the opposite extreme.

Words like this push the pendulum farther in the other direction, further people's being offended, and thus make the efforts to stop the pendulum even harder.

The resolution is someplace in the middle -- not in either extreme.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Diseria]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 10:12 AM
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You have voted Diseria for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have one more vote left for this month.


Thank you Diseria, for injecting some sanity into this diseased thread.

It has become common practice to vilify Muslims because they just don't uderstand them. So far, the only reasons made for removing these Muslims were

1) They prayed before boarding a flight. To me, this seems more like an excuse after the fact. The religion calls for scheduled prayer. Should I pass a note when I see someone praying before they eat their godawful airline meal?

2) They were suspicious. No doubt they were no more suspicious than the loner in the line who didn't speak to anyone, and avoided eye contact with everyone. Though it would make more sense to be afraid of him, Americans tend to fear what they don't know. We're used to seeing loners who don't make eye contact, we're not used to seeing Muslims.

3) No checked baggage. How could the people who passed the initial note possibly know this?

4) They spoke in disapproving terms about the war in Iraq...... Well, remind me to pass a note when I see John McCain or any other rational thinking person on my flight.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
4) They spoke in disapproving terms about the war in Iraq...... Well, remind me to pass a note when I see John McCain or any other rational thinking person on my flight.


That's the main reason right there. And the reason I gave so many times in our discussion earlier in the thread. The prayers, the dress, etc. shouldn't have had any bearing on getting them removed. But them speaking against the Iraq war, against the U.S. government, before boarding a plane IN the U.S. was a completely inconsiderate and stupid move. Of course it's gonna make people nervous. I disagree with the war in Iraq, I'm not muslim, and even I would feel uneasy about making political statements about an issue that is right smack in the middle of the current terrorism situation before boarding a plane. Wyrdeone was right about car wrecks, cancer, etc. And when you're on the road, sometimes you see a vehicle heading towards you and you have to take action to get out of the way. Somebody may feel a lump that they didn't have before and go to the doc to have a biopsy. It's true there are many threats that are more likely to get us, and there's no sense in freaking out about everything, but if something doesn't seem right and you ignore it, you're more likely to die. And them making their polarizing political beliefs known before boarding a plane is just wierd. Did they not have time to discuss that before they were in an airport terminal?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 12:50 PM
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Then I ask you, would I deserve to be removed from the plane if I made my opinions about the Iraq war, and the current state of the government known?

Is it fair?

BTW feeling a lump, and seeing a car coming at you is one thing. Condemning a person based on as little as their political view is very different.

[edit on 27-11-2006 by Rasobasi420]



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Then I ask you, would I deserve to be removed from the plane if I made my opinions about the Iraq war, and the current state of the government known?


It's not about whether you would or wouldn't deserve it, but you should pretty much expect it, and being a muslim only adds to it unfortunately. Like I said, I wouldn't do it because I am getting on a plane to get from point A to B, not to make complete strangers aware of my politics. It would be suspicious to choose such a sensitive and potentially dangerous time, boarding a plane, to make those volatile opinions known to complete strangers, because all those men traveling together had ample time elsewhere to discuss amongst themselves.



Is it fair?


Very little in life is fair I guess.



BTW feeling a lump, and seeing a car coming at you is one thing. Condemning a person based on as little as their political view is very different.


You're leaving alot out of the political view part, on purpose I suspect. I SHARE that view, so I am fully aware that not everybody who feels the same as you and I are a threat. However, there are times when political views are very relevant and should not be announced for no apparant reason, such as when boarding a plane, because it's going to almost 100% cause concern amongst others when that political view is one that is a major cause terrorists are fighting for. Therefore, like a lump, or a car driving erratically, many may see is as a threat to their lives....



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:33 PM
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The discussion was a very logical one, and very apropos at the time. Airport-> hightened security-> terror threat-> Questionable war -> discussion. I've had the same discussion myself in airports.

And the law and security is meant to be fair. By simply claiming "life isn't fair, I guess" is hardly an excuse, and can't be used by the personel responsible. This discussion is meant to clarify (to us at least) what should be done, what could have been done, and what needs to be done in the future. Not to say "life's a bitch, then you die".

And their being Muslim was an unfortunate happenstance for them. At the time of their discussion maybe they didn't even think about their religion. They were having a perfectly reasonable conversation before they were yoked up and told that they were terrorists.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:41 PM
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Hmm I may split this into 2 posts but I’ll see.....for right now this is for half minded.

actually yes freedom of speech IS limited!

That is a fact...I can’t just go up to the middle of times square, pull out a megaphone and yell that I’m going to set off a nuclear bomb and kill the president and rape his mom...I’d be thrown in jail. So yes there IS a freedom of speech limit. What that limit should be.....is anyones call really. But the point is you can NOT say ANY and EVERY thing you want to say in a PUBLIC place. There will be consequences. People cling to that freedom of speech thing...when in fact it’s only really freedom of private speech. Why do you think TV is cencored? Because some people will be offended by some things. I don’t fully agree with it, but the fact is that there is a limit as to how much freedom of speech you have.


The islamic beliefs associated with negativity....are those who take islam to the extreame and become TERRORISTS. That fundamental islam garbage, is more rampant in the world than u think. Why do you think all those little middle eastern countries have so much violence? Because they fight over which version of the koran is right, and have been fighting about it for CENTURIES. The middle east is a cesspool of ignorance and violence. And if u don’t believe me...just look how the real muslims treat their women! They make them wear veils, and treat them as second class citizens! I’m sorry, but no religon that does that to women is a good religion. And of course there are those who feel the need to strap a bomb to themself and blow theyself up outside a pizza shop or something. So yes, there are a lot of VERY negative things associated with islam and their people.

Look I dunno why u think america brought it on theyself or whatever. U apparently don’t agree that the terrorists changed america....look we’re not gonna speculate on 911 and what u believe about that. So for this debate we are going to say that the 911 attacks were real and orchestrated by real islamic terrorists. I don’t care if u think different because that’s another topic in another forum and frankly I don’t need to waste my time with a nut who believe in that stuff anyway. So lets just say that the attacks were real ok? And since they were....it WAS the islamics that changed the attitude of americans toward islamics in the first place.

And lets talk about the whole “if u are offended u should leave” thing....well look at it like this, people had NO IDEA what they were saying. Was it a racist or bad prayer? Probably not...but the point is if they are speaking a different language we don’t know what they are saying.

Yes unfortunatley half if they come to this country knowing what happen on 911, and what happens in their little middle eastern states...then they will have to deal sometimes with thigns like this happening. Not because it's right, but because it's a fact that radical islam does exit in the world today in a very violent and dangerous part of the world. So people coming from that section of the world need to be watched carefully and sometimes things like this are gonna happen, as to prevent another attack from happening.

I'd rather offend or discriminate against a few muslims than have another 911 happen.

breifley for diseria

i'm sorry but the world isn't all peaches and roses. People are nasty to each other and that's the way it is. The world is a cruel place. Survival of the fittest right? if you think about it, the people that are nice to everyone all the time get screwed over in the end. I've seen that only the most ruthless people get to the top.

reason people aren't scared of busniess people is because last time i checked, businessmen didn't strap explosives to themselves and detonate them.

I wanted to write more but I gtg. I’ll write more later..but let me end with this. IF a person comes to america from a forgein land..they have to adapt to OUR culture, and OUR value system...not the other way around. There’s no reason I have to adapt to them because they are foreigners in MY country. They have to abide by american standards, and accept that americans may not like certain things they do. If they don’t like it they can go right back to the middle east.

I’m sorry if that’s offensive but I firmly believe in NOT changing my belief sytem to accomadate others that came to my country. there's no reason i should have to. they need to change, not me.

so i will NOT learn about islam or the koran or any of that stuff. If anything they should pick up a rap cd, and buy the grand thef auto game and learn about my value system and my culture.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 01:48 PM
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Originally posted by Spawwwn
There’s no reason I have to adapt to them because they are foreigners in MY country. They have to abide by american standards, and accept that americans may not like certain things they do. If they don’t like it they can go right back to the middle east.

I’m sorry if that’s offensive but I firmly believe in NOT changing my belief sytem to accomadate others that came to my country. there's no reason i should have to. they need to change, not me.

so i will NOT learn about islam or the koran or any of that stuff. If anything they should pick up a rap cd, and buy the grand thef auto game and learn about my value system and my culture.


That pretty much sums it up doesn't it.

Spawwwn, if that's the case, why bother discussing anything? Do you want us to change our belief system?

All of those who agree with Spawwn say aye.



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 02:15 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
The discussion was a very logical one, and very apropos at the time. Airport-> hightened security-> terror threat-> Questionable war -> discussion. I've had the same discussion myself in airports.


Well, I guess others at the time didn't agree that it was appropriate. Maybe when you had that discussion you weren't traveling in a religious group that the discussion happens to center around, and you didn't raise any concerns. As far as the general public is concerned, it was a group of young muslim men that carried out the 9/11 attacks. And for those who believe it was a government operation, they still used a group of men that were supposedly muslim to carry out their dirty deed. So, either way, people are gonna be on edge when they make their opposition to the U.S. government known before getting on a plane. We can go round and round with this.



And the law and security is meant to be fair.




Yeah, it's meant to be. But hasn't been long before this incident, long before 9/11. You know that as well as I, probably better.




By simply claiming "life isn't fair, I guess" is hardly an excuse, and can't be used by the personel responsible.


It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Life isn't fair, and we are all crapped on regularly. So until everybody on earth stands up somehow and says enough, we will continue to be. No matter how much you type about how wrong this ONE incident was in your eyes, it isn't gonna make life fair. The personel responsible don't need an excuse, it's a business, they can refuse service to whomever they choose as long as they refund the money. Period.



This discussion is meant to clarify (to us at least) what should be done, what could have been done, and what needs to be done in the future. Not to say "life's a bitch, then you die".


Okay, let's go back in time and say it was handled the way you wish it was, and each one of them had a component to a small crude bomb that went undetected, they assembled it and took over the plane, and used it as a missile again or detonated the plane. What then? Instead of discussing an issue of inconvenience for a handful of men who are alive today to bask in all the pity for the wrong that was done to them, we'd be discussing hundreds of people who would never see their families again. Yeah, life is a bitch.



And their being Muslim was an unfortunate happenstance for them. At the time of their discussion maybe they didn't even think about their religion. They were having a perfectly reasonable conversation before they were yoked up and told that they were terrorists.


I missed where they were told they were terrorists. Are they still in custody?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 02:39 PM
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From that last post 27, it sounds like you know it was unjust and unfair. Is it that you don't care to attempt to find a better way of handling things? Are you content to let the innocent pay for the crimes of others?



posted on Nov, 27 2006 @ 02:58 PM
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Originally posted by Rasobasi420
From that last post 27, it sounds like you know it was unjust and unfair. Is it that you don't care to attempt to find a better way of handling things? Are you content to let the innocent pay for the crimes of others?


Well, yeah, of course I wish there were a better way to handle things. Of course I think it sucks that we're in the state of things that we are. It all sucks. I wish the world was united against the corruption that keeps us all at each others throats. But until that is the case, there is too much at stake in an airliner full of people not to be extra vigilant right now. Security checks don't always catch everything, and I'm open to any suggestion you may have that would be a better way to handle things. It could be much worse for muslims in this country than it is though, they were taken off a plane, which sucks but at least they have the right to protest, do news interviews, and even possbily bring a lawsuit against the airline, instead of being thrown in camps and locked away. But yeah, I still wish things were better for us all.



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