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6 Muslim Imams removed from flight.

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posted on Nov, 24 2006 @ 05:36 PM
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In AMERICA these Imam's adhere to AMERICAN ideals, not their own. You can bet that every person that doesn't look "American" passing through security at an airport raises eyebrows, this isn't just for middle easterners, this applies to everyone. America doesn't adhere to the rules of other countries when your visiting, they make them.

Common sense would tell me that you don't hold a big prayer session in an airport terminal of a country in which some individuals who practice your faith killed 3000+ people. Maybe I'm wrong.

I promise you the prayer is what made these people uncomfortable, if these Imams just sat and minded their own business in the terminal this probably would have never happened. If their flight was during a "prayer time" maybe they should have done a better job of booking a flight. As someone said flying is a privilege, not a right.

Now half_minded tell me why the individual who raised concerns didn't have the right to do so? He had just as much right to raise his concerns as did the imams to pray in the airport, wear their traditional robes, and fly on the plane.

How exactly are you supposed to distinguish between a radical islamist and a peaceful one? Wait til your in 1000 pieces? It's called better safe than sorry. Did they deserve to get back on the plane? Absolutely, but the plane isn't going to wait around for them to be re screened because they chose to make themselves look suspect.




posted on Nov, 24 2006 @ 06:04 PM
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I can see why people these days feel unsafe with anyone that may be muslim. It's quite typical because the majority of terrorism in this world is committed by islamic extremists. People have the right to be concerned for their lives and others if they suspect anyone of being a terrorist. This man was obviously going with his gut feeling and for you to claim he's 'full of hatred' for muslims seem quite irrational to me. Just look at the profile statistics of plane hijackers. It's only been a few years 9/11 and you expect everyone to forget about it, hold hands and sing kumbaya?



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 07:10 AM
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well calling me a child definitely does make ur argument stronger. Applause.

Please kick all priests out of churches because some of the priests are pedophiles. Kick all black people off Earth because some of them are criminals.

Just like you guys, I can also claim that my arguments are really strong and you guys are stupid and childish to not accept it.

You guys keep coming up with the same crap to argue your point. The clothes and the prayer. Neither the clohtes, nor the prayer is against the law. This should not have been grounds to remove them. Can you get this in your heads?????

Please prove to me that Osama carried out those attacks before blaming 9/11 on muslim extremists. Even if we assume they did, that does not mean the millions of muslims worldwide should stop praying and stop wearing their traditional clothes.

Flying is a priviledge, but that does not mean the flight owns you. You paid for that priviledge just like any other passenger. One passenger's words cannot have more weight that yours unless they have absolute proof.

The imams went through security checks before boarding the plane. So, they were already checked for explosives and stuff. Why do you still belive they are gonna blow the plane up????? Just cause they are muslim???? You guys are close minded, brainwashed individuals who cannot see the true nature of your own government and your sense of judgement.

Anyway, it seems like you guys cannot see what is happening in your country these days and you will not learn until you are the ones being opressed. Now I would like to say that its useless trying to convince me that the airline was justified in their actions because I dont think so. Contrary to your beliefs, you have not given my any strong proof to make me see otherwise.

Did the imams break any law in the terminal? No.
Did they go through all security checks? Yes.
Were they carrying anything dangerous? No.
Did they break any laws in the plane? No.
Did they get angry over the fact that airline asked them to leave caused they look arab? Ofcourse, anyone would be angry about that.
Did they leave? In handcuffs.
Did they go through security screening again? Yes.
Were they found to be dangerous or threatenig? No.
Were they found to be terrorsits? No.
Did the airline let them fly again after they were proved to be completely innocent? NO.

You see why I have a hard time undersdtanding why some of you are hellbent on proving that the imams were dangerous. If they had been terrorists or any threat at all then they would have been caught even before boarding the plane in the first place. Thats what all the security in airports is for these days.

The airline did not let them fly (the next day) even after they were cleared. WHY?

Unless you guys have any real PROOF, dont bother replying with the clothes and prayer crap.

[edit on 25-11-2006 by half_minded]



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 07:22 AM
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Here I will try this ONE LAST time before I write you off as a troll once and for all….



Originally posted by half_minded
Did the imams break any law in the terminal? No.


Real answer is yes they did. Here is that rule for Austin airport, but all airports have similar rules as they are enforced at a federal level. In other-words the Airport Police, Department of Homeland Security, DEA, and Customs all operate in an airport as federal agencies, and when you are taken into custody, it is a federal crime.





Austin-Bergstrom International Airport
City of Austin Department of AviationRules
Solicitation/Display/Demonstration
I. AUTHORITY AND PURPOSE
1. These rules are adopted by the City of Austin Department of Aviation pursuant to Section 17-2-21 of
the Austin City Code of 1991, that states in pertinent part as follows:
“Except as authorized by the Director, it shall be unlawful for any person to engage in the
following on airport property:
(C) to post, distribute or circulate leaflets, advertisements or other written matter;
(D)To solicit funds, contributions, alms or donations;
(E) To demonstrate, picket or hold a public gathering or a public meeting;


Case closed now can we move on to things that are actually worth debating?

edit to add:



On July 13, 1983, the Board of Airport Commissioners (Board) adopted Resolution No. 13787, which provides in pertinent part:

"NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED by the Board of Airport Commissioners that the Central Terminal Area at Los Angeles International Airport is not [482 U.S. 569, 571] open for First Amendment activities by any individual and/or entity;

. . . . .

"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that after the effective date of this Resolution, if any individual and/or entity seeks to engage in First Amendment activities within the Central Terminal Area at Los Angeles International Airport, said individual and/or entity shall be deemed to be acting in contravention of the stated policy of the Board of Airport Commissioners in reference to the uses permitted within the Central Terminal Area at Los Angeles International Airport; and

"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that if any individual or entity engages in First Amendment activities within the Central Terminal Area at Los Angeles International Airport, the City Attorney of the City of Los Angeles is directed to institute appropriate litigation against such individual and/or entity to ensure compliance with this Policy statement of the Board of Airport Commissioners . . . ." App. 4a-5a.



edit to further add:



Airport spokesman Patrick Hogan said some witnesses said some of the imams made anti-American comments about the war in Iraq before boarding the flight, and that some of the men asked for seat belt extensions even though a flight attendant thought they did not need them.

"There were a number of things that gave the flight crew pause," Hogan said. It was not immediately possible to verify whether the passengers who reported suspicious activity witnessed it themselves.


[edit on 11/25/2006 by defcon5]



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 07:46 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Here I will try this ONE LAST time before I write you off as a troll once and for all….



Originally posted by half_minded
Did the imams break any law in the terminal? No.


Real answer is yes they did. Here is that rule for Austin airport, but all airports have similar rules as they are enforced at a federal level. In other-words the Airport Police, Department of Homeland Security, DEA, and Customs all operate in an airport as federal agencies, and when you are taken into custody, it is a federal crime.





Austin-Bergstrom International Airport
City of Austin Department of AviationRules
Solicitation/Display/Demonstration
I. AUTHORITY AND PURPOSE
1. These rules are adopted by the City of Austin Department of Aviation pursuant to Section 17-2-21 of
the Austin City Code of 1991, that states in pertinent part as follows:
“Except as authorized by the Director, it shall be unlawful for any person to engage in the
following on airport property:
(C) to post, distribute or circulate leaflets, advertisements or other written matter;
(D)To solicit funds, contributions, alms or donations;
(E) To demonstrate, picket or hold a public gathering or a public meeting;


Case closed now can we move on to things that are actually worth debating?

edit to add:



On July 13, 1983, the Board of Airport Commissioners (Board) adopted Resolution No. 13787, which provides in pertinent part:

"NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED by the Board of Airport Commissioners that the Central Terminal Area at Los Angeles International Airport is not [482 U.S. 569, 571] open for First Amendment activities by any individual and/or entity;

. . . . .

"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that after the effective date of this Resolution, if any individual and/or entity seeks to engage in First Amendment activities within the Central Terminal Area at Los Angeles International Airport, said individual and/or entity shall be deemed to be acting in contravention of the stated policy of the Board of Airport Commissioners in reference to the uses permitted within the Central Terminal Area at Los Angeles International Airport; and

"BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED that if any individual or entity engages in First Amendment activities within the Central Terminal Area at Los Angeles International Airport, the City Attorney of the City of Los Angeles is directed to institute appropriate litigation against such individual and/or entity to ensure compliance with this Policy statement of the Board of Airport Commissioners . . . ." App. 4a-5a.



[edit on 11/25/2006 by defcon5]



Point and game.



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 12:09 PM
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Good find defcon5


I had forgotten all about those laws. Chicago and MKE have laws similar too those. They put them into effect during what is now known here as the hippy era. That was back when a group (can not remember the exact name) I think it was flower children who tried to gather/pray and sell flowers for some radical cult leader in the airports.





[edit on 11/25/2006 by shots]



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 12:46 PM
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Were they charged with the 'crime' of being in a group and praying??? NO.

Btw, muslim prayer is always held in a group if possible. Its been like that for hundreds of years.

Would you arrest a bunch of christians sitting together and praying to god???? NO.
Why? Because they are not getting in anyone's way.

Same with the imams.

(E) To demonstrate, picket or hold a public gathering or a public meeting;

The imams were not having a public meetin gor gathering. They were praying in one corner obviously to stay out of ppls way.


And ya, what gives u the right to write me off as a troll????



posted on Nov, 25 2006 @ 01:45 PM
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Originally posted by half_minded
(E) To demonstrate, picket or hold a public gathering or a public meeting;
The imams were not having a public meetin gor gathering. They were praying in one corner obviously to stay out of ppls way.


Oh my now you are trying to rewrite the meanings of words.

Pulling my American Heritage out just for you



gath·er·ing (g²th“…r-¹ng) n. 2. An assembly of persons



group (gr›p) n. Abbr. gr. 1. An assemblage of persons or objects gathered or located together; an aggregation: a group of dinner guests; a group of buildings near the road. 2. Two or more figures that make up a unit or design,So yes they did gather thus it does qualify under the law.



As for the Flower Children if that was in fact the correct name yes they were arrested and hauled off to jail only the first time the charges were disorderly conduct as I recall and it was at that time the laws were rewritten to ban assembly in airports.

I just wish I could remember the name of their leader I would tend to thing there is mention somewhere on Wiki that would give several of the acts they committed.

Yuppies Hippies whatever and they were also protesters at times only then they were outside of the airport where the laws did not apply.


I am not positive this is the same group but the ones I am talking about used the very same premise


Many young adults, called flower children, or hippies, left the middle-class life of their families of origin and sought a simpler lifestyle in the form of communal life in southern California. Out of this hippie movement came a loosely connected group of Evangelical Christian organizations collectively known as The Jesus People, which were described as "a diverse collection of pastors, street-preachers, oddballs and intellectuals all trying to communicate the gospel to the counterculture."


Source



[edit on 11/25/2006 by shots]

[edit on 11/25/2006 by shots]



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 12:00 AM
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So why were they not stopped by authorities in the terminal itself? If this is such a hard and fast rule in airports then why werent they stopped then?

As far as I can see, the airline reacted to a note by a passenger and used these little things to try and justify themselves.

And besides, some laws can be bent to mean anything.
The group law u r talking abt is for individuals who have an agenda.
Some friends together in the airport as a group is considered acceptable and not unlawful. The imams were together and saying their daily prayer which is not causing anyone any harm.

I went to an aiport with 5 other friends to get starbucks late at night. We were in gym clothes or casuals or stretch pants. No one stopped us or questioned us. We were just group of friends hanigng out right at the terminal gate. You know why we werent stopped? Coz we WERE NOT getting in anyone's way.

I will not stand to listen to this nonsense. I want to be able to travel without people judging me and kicking me off a plane just because I might look muslim.

I am not religious at all, but I have suffered a lot because of my muslim name. And no, its not Osama's fault. Its yours. Need to grow up and see the big picture.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 12:28 AM
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defcon

Two points that need to be made.

1.) Prayer is not a meeting, it's a personal thing. The fact that they happened to be praying together doesn't make it a meeting, any more than three men using side-by-side urinals constitutes a meeting.

2.) The first ammendment states that no law shall be held constitutional that abridges the right to free speech. Punishing speech is one thing, that's legal. But you can't stop the speech. That's my understanding of it. So, that law ought to be binned for being unconstitutional.

Just my .02



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 12:44 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
Here I will try this ONE LAST time before I write you off as a troll once and for all….


Really? You will do that. I am so hurt. Thats your idea of putting forth a point? Well I will write you off as _________.

Stick to the argument.

Also please prove to me that imams were saying anti-american words in the terminal. What language were they speaking in? What were the words? How do we know that the passenger is not lying about that?

Lot of people on ATS have some anti-american thing to say, be it, the iraq war or 9/11 , etc. Does that make them terrorists?

[edit on 26-11-2006 by half_minded]



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 03:16 AM
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It should be obvious why people today are concerned for their safety. 9/11 has not been forgotten. It happened because America had it's guard down, and now people don't want to let something like that happen again.
Here's a time line and description of plane hijacking statistics: nostalgia.wikipedia.org...
As you can see the majority of them were carried out by those considered to be muslims (whether you agree with it or not).
It's statistical evidence that raises people's suspicions when they see someone that is obviously muslim riding on the same plane they are and even more so when they congregate and pray...which is said to have happened before the 9/11 hijackers carried out their assault.
Profiling is simply the result of the plane hijacking phenomenon attached to Islamic Extremism. Why are you blaming innocent people that are afraid for their safety, but you refuse to admit that much of their concerns are indeed genuine....?

[edit on 26-11-2006 by laiguana]



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 03:26 AM
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Because it's impractical.

If they really had the capacity for logical thought, they would realize that they ought to be more afraid of car accidents, diabetes, cancer, and a buttload of other pressing concerns.

Despite the FACT that those things kill exponentially more people than terrorism, small-minded selfish pricks continue to drive fast, eat poorly, and engage in a whole host of other behaviors far more likely to send them to an early grave than a Muslim extremist. But what do they focus on? The OTHER guy!

They refuse to modify their own behavior for the sake of safety, but the instant they can inconvenience someone else, or a whole lot of other folks, to those same ends, they jump at the chance.

Selfish, illogical nonsense.

That's my gripe with the situation.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 03:52 AM
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So by your logic, if we're more likely to die from cancer than it's okay for us to stop wearing seatbelts? Most people will take pre-cautions no matter in what situation they are in. And I'm curious exactly how you relate these witnesses that have raised their suspicions as being selfish or being one of those 'pricks' that aren't concerned about their other habits.
I'm actually very happy with the way airports have been handling people's concerns about this and not setting them aside as non-sense. Taking risks allowed 9/11 and it appears America learned from that. So kudos to those people that voiced their concerns.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 03:57 AM
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No, you've missed the point.

I'm not saying people should ignore the threat, I'm saying they ought to put it into perspective.

It would be like miscalculating the danger posed by starvation compared to the danger posed by killer bees. If you never left your house because you were afraid of the bees, you would starve to death. Is that wise?

That's my point...



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 04:10 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Because it's impractical.

If they really had the capacity for logical thought, they would realize that they ought to be more afraid of car accidents, diabetes, cancer, and a buttload of other pressing concerns.



Thats only a logical argument because Terrorists have not YET set off a WMD or other huge attack, what happens when a Million people go in one terrorist attack ? then all those argument pale into nothing. The fact is Security all around the Globe since sept 11 has undoubtedly saved many many lives.

I think people underestimate how Determined the Islamofascists are and just how much work and money there Governments are pouring into security to stop attacks.



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 04:24 AM
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Do you realize the sort of attack necessary to create a million casualties? Where are terrorists going to get their hands on a Multi-megaton nuke?! They're going to be using kiloton nukes or chemical/biological attacks, neither one of which is capable of easily causing that sort of death toll.

Even a dozen cargo planes stuffed to the wiring with Ricin would be hard pressed to put a million people in the ground.

If we had spent the Iraq war chest on hardening our electrical grid, water supply, and food/fuel distribution network, that would dramatically lower the chances of a terrorist attack having such an impact.

Even if terrorists somehow managed to kill a million people in one attack, which would be nearly impossible, you're still not competing with the two leading causes of death (heart disease and cancer IIRC).

Every dollar we spend on bombs instead of research and domestic preparedness is a wasted dollar, IMO.

Terrorism is a threat that can be mititgated with sensible precautions. Kicking muslims off planes does NOTHING to prevent mass casualty attacks (at least nothing that couldn't be accomplished with a pair of fifty dollar door braces).



Crazy man shouting in the wind here, pay no attention...



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 04:54 AM
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Originally posted by WyrdeOne
Do you realize the sort of attack necessary to create a million casualties? Where are terrorists going to get their hands on a Multi-megaton nuke?! They're going to be using kiloton nukes or chemical/biological attacks, neither one of which is capable of easily causing that sort of death toll.


Its not impossible thou is it ?



Even a dozen cargo planes stuffed to the wiring with Ricin would be hard pressed to put a million people in the ground.

How about poisoning every major water supply in the country, creating wild fires that span several states .... got to use your imagination if we want to be prepared.



If we had spent the Iraq war chest on hardening our electrical grid, water supply, and food/fuel distribution network, that would dramatically lower the chances of a terrorist attack having such an impact.


Agreed, Iraqis dont want our help and will probably never be grateful for it.



Even if terrorists somehow managed to kill a million people in one attack, which would be nearly impossible, you're still not competing with the two leading causes of death (heart disease and cancer IIRC).

You really dont think you are going to be able to stop fat lazy people from eating to much junk and get them to excercise do you ?



Every dollar we spend on bombs instead of research and domestic preparedness is a wasted dollar, IMO.


Perhaps, only if you could see what would happen if you didnt or did make x decision huh ?


Terrorism is a threat that can be mititgated with sensible precautions. Kicking muslims off planes does NOTHING to prevent mass casualty attacks (at least nothing that couldn't be accomplished with a pair of fifty dollar door braces).

Try telling that to the people whom perished Sept 11



Crazy man shouting in the wind here, pay no attention...





posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 05:09 AM
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Every innocent muslim will feel humiliated and discriminated if this keeps happening. This will only fuel hatred and turn more muslims against the west.

My point is, they should put more reliable security checks in place and use better techinques than just appearance and behaviour to catch the actual terrorists rather than harass innocent muslims. Behaviour can be an effective tool but you guys have to understand that there are millions of arabs in the world. They all have the same traditional dress which they wear quite often. And they do tend to be different behaviour wise. Just like Indian from India are different in behaviour than Indians born and raised in US. I have been to many countried and have epxerienced all kinds of people and culture. So stop being so close minded abt muslims. Not all are terrorists. If they dress traditionally and pray on time then they are among millions across the world. Suspecting each and every one of them and harassing them is not an effective tool to fight terrorism



posted on Nov, 26 2006 @ 05:19 AM
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The problem is, that us Westerners are getting increasingly pissed about is Muslims always screaming oh im a poor Muslim you racists discriminate against me, this Airline had every right and Every resposibility to Question these people, and until an investigation is completed no one can make a definitive comment on this case can they ??

The truth is Muslims in the West have been granted concessions left right and centre, if we visit the Middle East we get nothing like these levels of concessions.

Im just tired of the Im a poor Muslim line is all.

I have never said nor have i ever heard a Westerner say that all Muslims are Terrorists, ever, but i have heard that virtually all terrorists are Muslims, havnt found much eveidence to deny that either.

I hope our 2 cultures can grow to become Friends, but this seed of suspicion runs deep on both sides now.

Biggest thing Muslims need to accept when moving to the west is that Church and State will ALWAYS remain seperate, if you cant accept that you cant realisticly expect to fit into western culture.



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