Saudi Eurofighters under threat?

www.theaustralian.news.com.au...

Saudis in threat to cut ties to Britain
David Leppard
November 20, 2006

SAUDI Arabia is threatening to suspend diplomatic ties with Britain unless Downing Street blocks an investigation into a £60 million ($148 million) "slush fund" allegedly set up for members of its royal family.
A senior Saudi diplomat in London has delivered an ultimatum to Tony Blair that unless the inquiry into an allegedly corrupt military deal is dropped, diplomatic links between Britain and Saudi Arabia will be severed, a defence source has disclosed.

The Saudis, key allies in the Middle East, have also threatened to cut intelligence co-operation over al-Qai'da.

They have repeated their threat that they will terminate payments on a military contract worth up to £40 billion that supports 10,000 British jobs.

The Saudis are furious about the Serious Fraud Office's criminal investigation into allegations that BAE Systems, Britain's biggest military supply company, set up the slush fund to support the extravagant lifestyle of members of the Saudi royal family.

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I hoenstly dont think they will cancel eurofighter purchase.
Wait and see..

David Leppard is a British journalist and former editor of The Sunday Times investigative unit, the Insight team. He is the author of books on the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, the Waco siege, and Special Branch, the British counter-terrorism and national-security police. He was responsible for a 1995 story suggesting Michael Foot, the former leader of the Labour party, had been an agent for the KGB. This later proved to be incorrect and the paper apologised. This was however a rare glitch in an otherwise impressive record.

Leppard was nominated as Journalist of the Year in the 1990 British Press Awards.


[edit on 21-11-2006 by Jezza]

[edit on 22-11-2006 by asala]

Mod Edit: trimmed down quoted material

[edit on 11/22/06 by FredT]

Isn't this how most big deals are done?
Greasing the wheels has always been a part of securing big contracts everywhere, even in our more enlightened western world. Payoffs and perks are a part of the business process.
This issue with payoffs to Saudis has been around for a long time and has dragged on year after year but is unlikely to have any real impact. It's more likely to just "go away" and maybe a few minor players will get a few months in an open prison and a fat pension for taking the fall

Yep that is exactly how powerful defence industries are..
This problem has been witnessed in my country for over a decade now with the people receiving payoffs coming from a variety of backgrounds; military personnel/generals who recommend the purchase; bureaucrats who sturuture the deals and politicians who sign off the deal.
Everybody's got their hands dirty..

I hope the deal is broken. The Saudi's cannot be trusted with Typhoons, it is rediculous to share such tech with the highest bidder. As for the soft deals, shame on BAe.

You know someone should sit down and explain to the Saudis that we in the UK don't have a tory Gov anymore.

I'd also agree that the so-called 'defence industry' is just about as corrupt as they come.

sminkey your full of cr#p.

Cash for honors mate?? ..... spinning a war for oil??..... hhmmmm yeah Tony Blairs crapping his pants over the cash for honors scandal.... His best buddy in italy is looking at major time for fraud, and a member of Tonies cronies had to leave her husband because he was involved in it all up to his eye balls....

Oh and lets look at his 3.3 MILLION pound mortgage.....

Tonies salary... 130.000, Cheries... 180,000.... thats a 10 times mortgage matey....errr yeah ok Labour are SO clean......

Lets not even get started on mandelson and Blair and the european Gravy train....

Neil Kinnock Labour man in europe investigated in fraud....... hampering investigations into fraud....

Well, sminkey. You earned a big, fat ignore for sheer BS.

Originally posted by D4rk Kn1ght
sminkey your full of cr#p.

- Wow, well naturally I'll have to disagree with you there......

...... and may I say what a pleasant and respectful start that was.

So in keeping with the attempts around here to encourage open debate with a civil tone, not.

But OK, you've made some political claims and each and every one of them is bogus, but if you want to get into this......

Cash for honors mate??

- That is merely alleged, there has not been a single (Labour) MP convicted to date.

......and it's not even personal corruption that is being alleged either, is it?

spinning a war for oil??

- Pure personal political opinion.

.....and not a hint of personal corruption.

hhmmmm yeah Tony Blairs crapping his pants over the cash for honors scandal

- More personal opinion over an investigation that has yet to produce even a single Labour MP under prosecution never mind one actually convicted of anything.

......and once again not a trace of personal corruption.

His best buddy in italy is looking at major time for fraud

- Again pure opinion. No convictions to date.

This remains a mere allegation, an indictment was requested, that doesn't mean it'll necessarily be granted and it sure as hell is no guarantee of a conviction.

He hasn't even been sent for trial so far.

.......and not a trace of a personal corruption allegation against the PM or any Gov Ministers.

and a member of Tonies cronies had to leave her husband because he was involved in it all up to his eye balls

- Once again this is mere pure personal opinion on top of an untested allegation without a shred of proof (or are you claiming to be personal friends with Mr Mills & Ms Jowell and 'in the know', hmmmmm?)

.....no personal corruption trials here for anyone in this Gov either.

Oh and lets look at his 3.3 MILLION pound mortgage.....

Tonies salary... 130.000, Cheries... 180,000.... thats a 10 times mortgage matey

- Yes of course, to you, Tony Blair can not expect vast earnings when he steps down from being British PM and so this narrow and simplistic view of his financial situation is your idea of 'proof' of corruption.

Get real.....or go ask his bank (presumably they were satisfied with the financial arrangements/projections).
Funny how the cops aren't onto this public knowledge & clear instance, right?

......no actually, no sign of personal corruption here either.

....errr yeah ok Labour are SO clean......

- Compared to your tory heros yes they are. Very much so.

Not one member of the Labour Cabinet facing a single personal corruption charge never mind actually being convicted and jailed, unlike the last tory Gov.

Lets not even get started on mandelson and Blair and the european Gravy train....

- Pure unsubstantiated allegation
(but do feel free to present this 'proof of corruption' you imagine you have.
I'm sure the police here and on the continent would be all ears.)

......no trials, no one under suspicion, no investigation = no personal corruption.
Or is innocent before proven guilty not mean much around your way?

Neil Kinnock Labour man in europe investigated in fraud....... hampering investigations into fraud....

- Kinnock was actually the EU commissioner entrusted with reform and anti-fraud measures; small wonder some on the receiving threw mud to try and thwart his actions.......and most relevant of all....... any convictions?
No.
Not a single one.

BTW it's really coming to something when the best you can do is to pad this out by resorting to some tenuous claims about an ex Labour leader (who stepped down 14 yrs ago) and ex member of the Cabinet (who left the Gov 5yrs ago) to cast a smear against.

The facts are that no Labour Ministers have been convicted of fraud or corruption and sent to prison.
In marked contrast to the last tory Gov.

Well, sminkey. You earned a big, fat ignore for sheer BS.

- No, it's not BS.
But quite obviously the truth seems a problem for you, huh?

Back on to the heart of the topic.....

Why mention the value of pointing out that we don't have a tory Gov anymore?

Ask the likes of corrupt and jailed ex-tory Minister Jonathan Aitken and his dealings in the ME arms trade.

Or how about Mrs Thatcher's suddenly incredibly rich son Mark (connected to the £20 billion Al Yamamah deal with Saudi Arabia.....now known to be laced with £600millions in bribery)?

Here's a good (recent) one -

THE Tories under David Cameron have accepted £100,000 from the wife of a foreign arms dealer barred from making political donations in Britain.

Wafic Said, a Syrian-born Saudi, and his British wife Rosemary are accused of exploiting a loophole in the rules to fund the Tories, who are under increasing pressure to reveal their financial backers.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

Same old torys same old corruption.

It is also perfectly relevant to Saudi arms deals.

(unlike the mud you chose to try and throw)

Arms deals with Middle East countries and corruption go hand-in-hand. If you're not prepared to provide some 'offsets', in terms of slush money in a numbered account somewhere, then another company most certainly will - it's just a fact of life and the Arabs don't even consider it bribery, just normal business administrative arrangements that are part of any large contract.

The UK sold Tornado's to Saudia Arabia when they were only just entering RAF service, so much so that many RAF units were effectively stripped of much needed engineering support equipment to support the contract. The Typhoon is a state-of-the-art fighter and a step up from their current F3s and F-15s, but if the UK doesn't sell them the aircraft, the French will jump in immediately and sell them their latest kit without a moments hesitation and throw in the usual bribes. I personally doubt that Saudia Arabia will rush to join in some pan-arab attack on Israel - they have too much to loose.

Don't imagine the US wouldn't do the same thing in similar circumstances - look back over the history of the F-104 deals with European countries and you'll find they are riddled with bribes and corruption on a massive scale.

As regards our political masters, well one way or another most of them are corrupt. They may not always take money, but they will often take a decision that costs millions and effects thousands of people based on how it can benefit them and their political party; regardless of unambigious evidence to the contarary and the additional costs involved. I regard that sort of activity as every bit as corrupt as taking money in a grubby brown envelope, but we just ignore the fact that it happens all the time.

Heimdall

In relation to the UK and the British Gov and our arms sales to Saudi Arabia it is perfectly clear for those balanced enough to see it.

The previous big deal was as crooked as they come, we now know this beyond dispute; £600 million is the price that 'greased' Al Yamamah.

The Saudis are bitching that investigations and a general clamp down on corruption - happening right now - is going on.

Ergo the current Labour Gov is quite obviously not turning a blind eye to or behaving corruptly in this arena like the last tory one.

[edit on 23-11-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Attorney General Lord Goldsmith said the SFO was "discontinuing" its investigation into Britain's biggest defence company, BAE Systems.

The probe had related to the Al Yamamah arms deal with Saudi Arabia. BAE has denied any wrongdoing.

Lord Goldsmith told the Lords he thought that a prosecution "could not be brought".

news.bbc.co.uk...

Its over, the deal is still on.

Damn you guys are trusting, the Typhoon just entered service with the RAF and you want to immediately sell it to Saudi Arabia? Even if they won't attack Israel why would you go due such a thing, this is your top of the line fighter, it's like us selling the F-22 to other countries, I shudder...

You'll probably find the export version will be missing some of the more interesting bits and bobs.

We flog our best tank around the world too, there are quite a few with the Chally now.

EDIT: I do enjoy the way Sminky will, without fail, defend Blair/Labour to his last breath. You have to admire the conviction there...

It's just a shame you can't see the slime for the muck, Smink. (There all as bad, though, so it doesn't matter who you vote for)

[edit on 15/12/06 by stumason]

Looks like Britain is complying with the Saudi demands:

I opened a thread about this before I saw this one, (sorry about that!)

yes it's true Tony Blair has decreed that the wider public interest (translation = complying with the deadline given by Saudis to drop the case) takes precedence over 'maintaining the rule of law'

Unbelieveable!

As bad as it sounds. I'm kind of relieved they decided to do that. I mean, the UK's relationship with saudi arabia is very strong, not forgetting that there in the middle east. Also it would seem crazy to jeprodise all of those jobs, and pherhaps the future of BAE on an investigation that might reveal nothing.

Although i think corruption should always be investigated, with so much at stake they had to be realistic.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Damn you guys are trusting, the Typhoon just entered service with the RAF and you want to immediately sell it to Saudi Arabia? Even if they won't attack Israel why would you go due such a thing, this is your top of the line fighter, it's like us selling the F-22 to other countries, I shudder...

This is because they want to play superpower and sell weapons tech.

Look at the bright side, those typhoons will make good target practice for our F-22s if we ever have a skirmish with saudi arabia.

Originally posted by stumason
I do enjoy the way Sminky will, without fail, defend Blair/Labour to his last breath.

- It was a pity that those who rushed to defend the torys and attack Labour were blind to my original input being a mild joke.

I wasn't defending anyone, it was a little joke (containing the truth germane to the issue).

You have to admire the conviction there...

It's just a shame you can't see the slime for the muck, Smink.

- Ah but I can and do stu.
This UK Gov aren't perfection, I'll agree with that but a comparison between the two?
You've got to be kidding.

Anyhoo, what I don't like is sloppy thinking, and unsupported inference.

In this instance Al Yamamah was a deal done long ago and it is completely unconnected to this present Gov
(indeed it was the investigations into corruption conducted under this present Gov that were causing the problems).

(There all as bad, though, so it doesn't matter who you vote for)

- .....and this is why I just won't go along quietly.

There is a difference.

Sadly it looks like some folks in Britain might be in need of another dose of it to see the wood for the trees tho.

But as far as this episode goes it looks like jobs and 'real politik' got in the way of justice.
Pity, but such are the compromises being in Government and exercising real power sometimes demand.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
This is because they want to play superpower and sell weapons tech.

Look at the bright side, those typhoons will make good target practice for our F-22s if we ever have a skirmish with saudi arabia.

Haha, Xphiles back to his old self.

Firstly, the UK is one of the top 3 weapons manufacturers in the UK. You do know that BAe are also one the US largest contractors too? The F-22 is heavily reliant on BAe systems, you know.

And as far as your last comment goes, in skirmishes between Typhoons and F-22's so far, the Typhoon perfoms exceptionally well.

So there

Originally posted by stumason
Firstly, the UK is one of the top 3 weapons manufacturers in the UK.

Makes no sense.

Originally posted by stumason
You do know that BAe are also one the US largest contractors too? The F-22 is heavily reliant on BAe systems, you know.

Largest foreign, yes. However "heavily reliant"? Lets not exaggerate there Stu, yes BAE does make some subsystems, this is true.

Originally posted by stumason
And as far as your last comment goes, in skirmishes between Typhoons and F-22's so far, the Typhoon perfoms exceptionally well.

That's just flat out wrong. The F-22 and Typhoon have never even flown in the same airspace at the same time let alone "skirmish" with each other. It is nothing more than hearsay and fantasy, it has NEVER happened. All that you just said above is based on a fictional event.

A skirmish between the US and Saudi Arabia?

You got more chance of hell freezing over.