A Theological View of Sin

I can't believe you still don't understand the house thing..
YOU ARE ADDICTED TO YOUR PAST, To memories.. so is everyone around you..
So why would we worry about WHAT we're addicted to, instead of ADDICTION.
All of those reasons why your house is your house is due to experience.. memory..

I can't believe you are equating "addiction" with "memory". I have childhood memories and in your dictionary I'm addicted to my childhood?

What are you addicted to? Did you remember your breakfast?:shk:

Originally posted by UnrealZA
Are you serious here? I mean how on earth can you read that passage....oh wait, yeah you don't read the Scriptures within their context. Sorry bout that.

Totally serious. And I do read them in context - whatever that means to you....

Free will: choose the commandments or choose your own way
Clear enough to support it as being a choice....

Free will comes with consequences.
No will comes with nothing.

Also, if this passage were describing "free will" does it then mean that Adam and Eve had no free will for this incident in Deut. 11:26 has taken place hundreds of years AFTER Adam.

It is describing the opportunity to choose one of two things. And explaining the results of both. What's so hard to understand?

Adam got the same thing: eat or don't eat....die or live.

So again, this passage has nothing at all to do with God granting man "free will".

What, then, do you call 'the opportunity to choose?'
Who is choosing? Is it their choice, completely, to decide which they want to do?

Informed free will is even more free than ignorant will. Which seems more like 'head strong,' IMO. But that is just me.

Yet I know the reply....."This passage is describing that the people did have a choice, also known as "free will" in that they could either listen to God and be blessed or disobey Him and be cursed!"

THEN why did you post it? IF you already knew the reply? Just cancel one out with the other and forge ahead to the next thought.

Sure, they could either obey or disobey and we would see that as free will BUT what this does not take into account or acknowledge is that God ALREADY KNEW what their choice would be for He predestined it.

But if God knew (and they did not know God knew) then how does that affect their opportunity to choose for themselves? He didn't make their choice - He only knew which they would choose.

His wisdom and ability to see 360 degrees does not take away their free choice opportunity nor does it alter the certainty of the results for either one.

God is not just 50% Sovereign but rather 100% Sovereign over all His Creation, if not He would not be God. He is Absolutely Sovereign.

Then why are you even concerned about it? If you don't think you have free will, then maybe your vision is more than the average 45 degrees or so that we all start out with...and so then you would also understand that the purpose of these things written in the bible are for the benefit and education of all of us...

Therefore you would advance to the next level of education, deeper down, according to your degree of vision, and leave those with more limited scopes alone?
(or else help them which is not the same as imposing your dogma on their thought processes - rather more like guidance or an accurately aimed question...toward their inner parts but not from the perspective of the end of your finger - from their own eyes)

Originally posted by UnrealZA
I can't believe you are equating "addiction" with "memory". I have childhood memories and in your dictionary I'm addicted to my childhood?

What are you addicted to? Did you remember your breakfast?:shk:

Not usually, no. I often don't recall the last time I ate - I just know when it's time to eat again by the way my body feels.

What if you woke up tomorrow and had amnesia? (for whatever reason)
In the middle of the night, you had somehow lost all your childhood memories..your adulthood, too?

Would it bother you?

What if you came home and your house was gone?
A cyclone or a wildfire leveling it while you are at work?

Is it going to cause you distress? Or any kind of unpleasant reaction?

What would you do? And think? Would you want to blame someone?
Cry?
Destroy something of someone else's, just because you no longer had one, too?

Originally posted by UnrealZA

I can't believe you still don't understand the house thing..
YOU ARE ADDICTED TO YOUR PAST, To memories.. so is everyone around you..
So why would we worry about WHAT we're addicted to, instead of ADDICTION.
All of those reasons why your house is your house is due to experience.. memory..

I can't believe you are equating "addiction" with "memory". I have childhood memories and in your dictionary I'm addicted to my childhood?

What are you addicted to? Did you remember your breakfast?:shk:

that would be considered your ego... all of those childhood memories and yes you are addicted to them and so AM I.
you are addicted to memory,. to YOUR single memory

OH!


OKay....

that's why it is all is connected in the flesh, then...

6 degrees of separation!

then 5
then 4
then 3
then 2
then 1!

Blast off!

When you are ONE with the ONE then you are just [I] with an EYE.

Coolio.

Free will: choose the commandments or choose your own way
Clear enough to support it as being a choice....

Free will comes with consequences.
No will comes with nothing.

queenanie you have missed the point and also because you have you deny God His Absolute Sovereignty. Gods "choice" is prior to and the very cause of man's "choice". As an unbeliever I had no prior knowledge that I would be saved nor did I grasp that prior to my salvation, or what I thought was "my choice to be saved" God had already, before the universe came to be, chosen me for salavtion.

Gods election of those whom He saves is not based on my faith to choose Him nor any good works in me for there is no good in the unbeliever. God saves His elect based on His own desires and will.

So while it may "seem" like a choice it is truly not for God not only foreknows the choice but is also the director of that choice.

The conflict comes down to, what you and others may hold to, is do we possess "human freedom" in light of Scripture or do we rather possess "human responsibility" in light of Scripture? Scripture no where affirms human freedom, especially knowing that God is in Absolute control and is also Absolutely Sovereign over all creation. We do though have a "responsibility" to God in the sense that we must answer for our deeds. To have "human responsibility" means that we are to answer to one in authority and in this case our responsibility is to answer to the Ultimate Authority.

As one theologian explains it.....

Regardless of whether or not man is free, is man "expected or obliged to account" for his actions to God? Yes, because Scripture says, "For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil" (Ecclesiastes 12:14). God will reward the righteous and punish the wicked; therefore, man is responsible. What seems to so many as an "irreconcilable conflict" is hereby resolved.

Man is responsible precisely because God is sovereign, since to be responsible means
nothing more than being held accountable to one's actions, that one will be rewarded or punished according to a given standard of right and wrong. It has everything to do with whether God has decreed a final judgment, and whether he has the power and authority to enforce such a decree, but it does not depend on any "free will" in man. In fact, since human responsibility depends on divine sovereignty, and since divine sovereignty indeed contradicts human freedom (not human responsibility), this means that man is responsible precisely because man is not free.

Originally posted by UnrealZAqueenanie you have missed the point and also because you have you deny God His Absolute Sovereignty.

You have absolutely no grounds to say with assurance what and what I do or do not deny my Father GOD.

You don't know....you really shouldn't make judgments about ANYone unless you know for SURE.

And while you might think you do, you don't....many things NONE of us know for sure...but as far as what is in a person's heart toward the LORD - that is something NONE of us have the right to say.

It's easy enough to see how much of what a person believes about GOD by what they speak and write. I don't see how it is possible to call one's self a 'believer' in GOD and his WORD and then say that not ALL MEN will be saved - or anything else that seems impossible, for that matter.

To believe this one phrase from the bible: with GOD ALL things ARE POSSIBLE is to believe fully.

Gods election of those whom He saves is not based on my faith to choose Him nor any good works in me for there is no good in the unbeliever. God saves His elect based on His own desires and will.

Absolutely. Without question - that is something about which I am in consensus with you. That also was one of the ways I realized that with GOD ALL things ARE possible!

So while it may "seem" like a choice it is truly not for God not only foreknows the choice but is also the director of that choice.

In a way, I have to agree - until He reveals HIS glory to us on an individual level, we DO have a choice - one that is NOT fully informed. And when HE DOES reveal HIS glory, it becomes a non-choice in this wise: 'How can ANY one resist the grace and beauty of HIS full and brilliant love for us?'

One falls to one's knees without a contradicting thought otherwise...then GRACE becomes evident to the heart.

The conflict comes down to, what you and others may hold to, is do we possess "human freedom" in light of Scripture or do we rather possess "human responsibility" in light of Scripture?

Liberation is something granted on an individual basis, but only when the cell is unlocked by the warden (assigned by God's determination). We gain our freedom, more accurately. Not earn but gain. It is granted.

Human responsibility is 'accountability.' We are accountable for our actions! (which are either reactions or choices made)

GOD is a faithful creator to all of creation and that comes with the inherent full responsibility that is HIS and HIS alone. That is the FAITH (constancy and reliability and assurance of the promises) wherein the saints deliver HIS blessings. And also the point at which we are to JUST TRUST in HIM even when it seems things are not going as they should be - and then we find patience comes into the equation, as well....patience is critical and we must wait on the LORD.

ALL IS WELL
IT is well, with my soul.
(for it is held in the HAND of my FATHER)

See?

Scripture no where affirms human freedom, especially knowing that God is in Absolute control and is also Absolutely Sovereign over all creation.

No. However, it DOES promise eventual liberation. And all promises will be kept.

We do though have a "responsibility" to God in the sense that we must answer for our deeds. To have "human responsibility" means that we are to answer to one in authority and in this case our responsibility is to answer to the Ultimate Authority.

That is accountability....we are accountable to HE who is ultimately responsible for our welfare.
We, then, in turn, have our own responsibilities to our families, etc. But responsibility goes down and accountability goes up, in the heirarchy of command.

As one theologian explains it.....

I'm sorry, UnrealZA, I must remind you: I do not care what 'one theologian' explains...as far as validation for what God has made clear to me and through me.
So I hope you understand I won't address that - to do so would be opening myself up to possibly acting in a contentious way and that I choose not to do. It is not edifying for the reader, or for me.



God bless you!

So sin, we have it

Sin is many meanings in it self, its origin is something that we as men can not tame, its likeness is of no true reasonable belief, all we can stem to say is what we have found, believe, or know. The truth that sin is real is most evident, the question still and that will always have the most views, is that "why was sin ever allowed to happen in the first place..."

Wow, go away for a couple of days and this thread grows!!

Anyway, a few points:

UnrealZA, sorry to say this, but I sort-of agree with Queenannie on the free-will thingy.

Yes, God has a plan for our lives, but we have the free-will not to walk in it. It was my choice to ask Jesus into my heart, it wasn't forced on me. Ok, God brought me to the point of salvation through a number of circumstances, but I could have said 'no' and went on my way.

It's a free-will choice to follow God or not. Unfortunately some people don't choose to follow him. That's what evangelism is about, giving people the information so that they can make up their minds.

If there was no free-will then how could we even MAKE the choice to love God? It would be a foregone conclusion.

With Adam and Eve, God told them not to eat of the tree but Satan came along and sowed seeds of doubt in Eve's mind so she chose to eat the fruit. BTW, notice that Satan twisted God's words? In Genesis 2 it says (all quotes from the NIV):

16And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

in Genesis 3 however:

1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You must not eat from any tree in the garden'?"

2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, 'You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.' "

Eve got it wrong there too, because God didn't say that they 'should not touch the tree' just that they couldn't eat from it.

It was her choice, and look what's happened because of it. God did make a way out for man though, and that's now our choice to make. Romans 5:

12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned— 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

20The law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Enough said I think.

[edit on 29/11/06 by jimboman]

[edit on 29/11/06 by jimboman]

Thank you, Jimboman!

You pointed out some things I had missed! Thank you, again, for sharing your understandings - sharing increases the scope of perception!

Yes, God has a plan for our lives, but we have the free-will not to walk in it. It was my choice to ask Jesus into my heart, it wasn't forced on me. Ok, God brought me to the point of salvation through a number of circumstances, but I could have said 'no' and went on my way.

This was my thinking at one time also yet through study and prayer I can no longerr hold this view and now see it as heresy. Please allow me to explain.

In order for God to be God He must be Absolutely Sovereign over all things, including our salvation. You did not choose God but He chose you.

Isa 45:9
9 "Woe to the one who quarrels with his Maker --
An earthenware vessel among the vessels of earth!
Will the clay say to the potter, "What are you doing?'
Or the thing you are making say,"He has no hands'?
NASU


Jesus states several times that no one comes to Him unless God first draws them -

John 6:37
37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
NASU

John 6:44
44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
NASU

John 6:64-65
64 "But there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.

65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."
NASU


So you nor I "chose" or "accepted" Jesus but rather God first chose us. There is no love in us for God until He calls us, until He gives us faith to believe. No one believes upon Him in and of themselves. Scripture is again very clear. If we go to Acts 2 we see that Jesus death was "predetermined" by God.

Acts 2:23
23 this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.
NASU

In Acts 13 Paul and Barnabus are preaching and those whom were "appointed" were all saved.

Acts 13:48
48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
NASU

In Acts 4 we read this -

Acts 4:27-28
27 "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel,

28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
NASU

God predetermined who Pilate would be and what his role would be. The same with Herod and all those taking part in Jesus ministry, death, burial and resurrection. None had a choice for God predetermined it to happen as it did. At the moment of a happening it may seem or feel as if we have choice but again God has predetermined or predestined those things to be. Paul is very clear on this subject when he writes -

Rom 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
NASU

Eph 1:4-5
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
NASU

Eph 1:11
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
NASU

Now one can continue to believe that they are in control of their choice to accept or reject Christ but they are sadly mistaken. One may reply with, "It's not fair!" but again who are we, the clay, to say to the Potter, "Just what do you think you're doing?" God has chosen some for salvation and others for damnation.

Rom 9:8-21
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.

9 For this is the word of promise: "AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON."

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac;

11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

12 it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
NASU

So even before Jacob and Isau were even born God predetermined who would server who. They had no choice in the matter, not Jacob nor Esau.

I'll admit that this is a touchy and emotionaly charged topic but the Scriptures do not lend support to the claim, "It's my choice to accept or reject Christ!"

UNrealZA:

Been thinking about this, and I think I have an answer.

God's timeless, right? Outside of time? So he knows the choices we're going to make before we make them. He doesn't have to 'make' anyone do anything, he just knows they are going to do it!

He knew you and I were going to make the choice of following him from before we were born, so he knew what plan to put in motion for our lives. So you have a point, but so do I when you think about it.

It's a lot to get your mind round admittedly, and my head hurts now!

In my point of view, sin is an evil consept. Just like the consept of karma.

Why do you say karma is an evil concept?

Just out of curiosity,
What is the Non-theological view of sin???


G

Originally posted by shihulud
Just out of curiosity,
What is the Non-theological view of sin???


G

I believe th answer to that is simple..

A non-theological view of sin is as follows..

A look into human interaction as well as singular human interaction (a human interacting with themself).... what 'works' and what doesn't...

so its really reshaping our idea of sin ... saying.. if this doesn't work (doesn't 'benefit' or do what I wanted) than it is sin.. it degraded me instead of upgraded me..

thats the difference.. instead of pleasing some superbeing GOD, you are pleasing yourself and the people around you. Its very important to remember 'other' people ... I believe its a more sane way of looking at any type of commandments.

now of course you'll argue a person who needed money killed a rich person because it 'benefitted' the poor person or people.. (a robin-hood dealy) .. but once again... in the 'new line' of thinking everyone is equal based on being human, so no one is really poor or rich.. they just think they are.... for instance .. if being rich meant you had lots of bank-notes, and the 'rich' person had 1 billion bank notes... but could never touch them, because he locked them in a vault .. and lost the ONE key to open the vault door.. he is certainly rich, but certainly poor at the same time, which is it? better to have all of your bank-notes, but they are locked away, or to have NO bank-notes and using them as you need them, as you get them and give them ?? hoarding the bank-notes just helped the rich man lose all his riches and he never got to use any of them... so I guess what I'm saying is.. regardless of who has what, with this new 'philosophy' .. people will be using their energy efficiently .. doing the BEST thing, because it gives the best results for everyone.. so instead of robbing people, you'll be making friends with them, so you can benefit even more, EVEN if they don't give you any money... Its a new way of looking at people. and ourselves.