Putin does it again!!! (poisoned spy)

I have some serious considerations about who poisoned whom. After all, that material is significantly lethal, and there has not been a report of anyone else dying of it (that we know of). However, if one handled it without extensive protective gear, they would be exposed and likely irradiated as well...

As for traces being in his home, hotel, and restaurant, he likely tracked it in there.

The question arises about where the original point of contamination was, and how. Is there no information forthcoming from any source about that?

In this big conspiracy world, I think it's far less likely that Putin did it than some other rogue operative from one of the terrorist groups who are making the point that they do, indeed, have access to nuclear weaponry and/or radioactive material. And who better to target than someone who knows the shadowmen, the ones who are spies, know spies, live and breathe intrigue...they are the ones who would be "in the know" about terrorists...who the terrorists are, how they operate, how to get facetime with them.

This will be fascinating to watch unfold, if anything further comes from it. I don't believe that Putin had anything to do with it, but rather it was from a different source making a different point known world-wide.

Regards-
Aimless

I could be wrong but ingesting radiated substances would be more dangerous than externally handling them I would think.

This sounds like a classic spy story to me as these methods are not known even among gangsters and they do lots of jobs too (contract killing).

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
I could be wrong but ingesting radiated substances would be more dangerous than externally handling them I would think.

Well if they found traces of it at the Sushi bar and his hotel, unless he was peeing there, it sounds like someone was carrying the stuff, unless they sprinkled some powder and it ended up all over the place. Something doesn't sound right. I wonder if this guy was selling Polonium in a dirty bomb form ,and he inadvertantly irradiated himself then he decided to try to pin it on Putin that it was an attempt on his life to cover it up.

I could be wrong but ingesting radiated substances would be more dangerous than externally handling them I would think.

Ingesting it does indeed pose a higher lethality rate, I'd imagine, due to the absorption of it through the small intestine (into the liver, and thence into the bloodstream). However, inhaling it would also bring it immediately into contact with the circulatory system, and I'd think this was something that the person who was poisoning him would know. But I'm having a really hard time getting around the whole decontamination suit that would be needed to handle this stuff safely not being noticed by someone somewhere.

Scenario: it's sprinkled on his food/in a drink. He ingests it, and subsequently dies. He would have to have left his food/drink unattended. The bad guy would've had to open a small packet and sprinkle it - without contaminating himself (couldn't use gloves, mask, any protective gear when handling this...it would bring attention) - onto the food.

Alternative scenario: he is sprayed in the face with an aerosolized version. He didn't complain about being sprayed. And if he was aware of it, he would've said something.

Additional alternative scenario: he is contaminated before entering the hotel room, the restaurant, and going home. Somehow, he (and only he) was exposed to a lethal dose of it. Where was he alone? It would have had to have been somewhere very private, known to the bad guy, and the stuff planted there prior to him getting there, with little or no risk to anyone else at all. So where could that place be? And who would know he was there?

This sounds like a classic spy story to me as these methods are not known even among gangsters and they do lots of jobs too (contract killing).

No, I disagree. As long as we've had radioactive material around, there hasn't been an intentional poisoning (aside from perhaps Silkwood) like this ever, as far as I know.

There are far more poisons with far easier handling precautions that are generally available for use. If someone was just trying to "do away" with him, then ricin, or castor beans, or readily available alternative things are more competent for the job.

Poisonings happen, certain and sure. But not with this material...and not in this manner.

A point was being made, a point about radioactive material. Not simply an ex-spy being killed; that happens, too. But the point being made was not simply that; rather, it was some sort of warning, alert, indication, something. Or radiactive material would not have been used.

And I don't see a government using radioactive material in an assassination like this. Again, there are exceedingly effective poisons out there that, even mishandling them, would not pose the risk that radioactive material does. In some quarters, poisoning another country's citizen with radioactive material on that country's land could be considered an act of war. That is not something Putin - or KGB - would do casually.

Therefore, I am not at all certain that it was a state sponsored killing; or at least, not state-sponsored in the manner discussed herein.

Regards-
Aimless

ETA: The soviets have used Ricin and, perhaps more recently, dioxin, in their state sponsored killings, and have not used radioactive material in the past. I am not saying they haven't started, but it's rather an odd poison to change to after dioxin and ricin have proved rather effective in the past. Interesting reading about PO is here: toxnet.nlm.nih.gov...:@term+@rn+@rel+13981-52-7+@OR+@na+polonium

Regards again-
Aimless

[edit on 24-11-2006 by Aimless Searcher]

Russian 'expert' on bbc news 24 earlier said that the most probable scenario is that Russia poisened Alexander Litvinenko to send a message to others, mainly one, Boris Berezovsky, who claims to be a friend of Alexander Litvinenko, and who also is a friend of one of the Bush family "In recent years, Berezovsky has gone into business with Neil Bush, the younger brother of US President George W. Bush"

en.wikipedia.org...



"Boris Berezovsky, the exiled Russian billionaire who has known Mr Litvinenko for 10 years, accused President Vladimir Putin of being behind the attack."

link



Could be a really big diplomatic fight about to kick off, or it might all be brushed under the carpet, slowley but surely over the next two weeks, we shall see...


I also heard on newsnight earlier that it may not be possible to conduct an autopsy due o the radiation

news.bbc.co.uk...

[edit on 24-11-2006 by iloveyou]

[edit: shortened long URL]

[edit on 11/25/2006 by 12m8keall2c]

Apperantly the MI5 thinks this was the FSBs work.

www.dailymail.co.uk...

Berezovsky, Putin, gangsters and radioactive materials...

The Mogilevich Group has expertise in this field. Mogilevich and Berezovsky are also in war with each other. The World's Most Accessible Nuclear Facility

...

I do recognize the evidence pointing towards Putin and his government; I also think that sometimes, thinking around the edges might yeild a bit more..."interesting", perhaps...points of view.

We don't know, and probably won't know for sure, what happened. I've just been considering this today, and found some difficulty with the carrying-out of the plan (as stated in earlier posts). And I also believe that on occasion, all is not as it seems, and first blush may not produce proof. Then again, I could be completely wrong. That's fine with me, too.

Regards-
Aimless

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
I could be wrong but ingesting radiated substances would be more dangerous than externally handling them I would think.

According to the Daily Mail link given a few posts up, it has to be injested to be deadly. It is in the same group as oxygen, so probably diffuses easily throughout the body and gets incorporated into tissues. Not good for something radioactive.



[edit on 11/24/2006 by djohnsto77]

Remember when Putin said "Former? There is no such thing as a former KGB man."

Guess he wasn't lying. Handshake in, blood out. There's no escape.

This made me chuckle from the Daily Mail link:

Normal hygiene and cleanliness practice in hospitals should have reduced the likelihood of any significant intake by NHS staff and others and therefore any radiation hazard.

Normal? That means they're all screwed! People die all the time from the uncleanliness of some hospitals...

As a side note, that Daily Mail link was typical of them. Very panicky, devoud of facts and intended to dramatise the situation even more than normal.

Originally posted by Fang
Excellent! ('

')Now where's my old mate Blabblabblabetc,etc. I want to hear his take on events.

[edit on 07/21/06 by Fang]

Who would do this in the week leading up to the important Russia-EU summit ?

Instead of disposing of him quietly, for some reason the poor bastard is lit up like a Christmas tree and his slow and painful death is covered all week to constant anti-Putin propaganda.

And finally, on Friday, the state-controlled BBC cheerily anounces the failure of the Helsinki talks.

So, who benefits ?

Well I don't think the EU has much to gain. There are important economic issues to be addressed there. If the wicked UK/US axis were behind this, I suggest that would have used a means that would not have endangered the health of potentialy hundreds of Londoners. Let me throw this into the pot. The Thomas a Becket theory, where someone distances themselves by saying "Who will rid me of this medlesome priest" in the hope that 'someone' will act without a direct order or instruction. This has been floated in the press. Another thing which is being reffered (in todays Guardian) are comments from unnamed British Intelligence sources that Litvinenko's significance did not merit such a public and brutal execution. Was this a message intended for Boris Berezovsky?

[edit on 07/21/06 by Fang]

Death Spray...
Talk about a "Bam!"

www.thesun.co.uk...

Just heard on FOX News that British authorities say the sushi restaurant he went to has to be closed for decontamination because there's so much polonium there.

Originally posted by djohnsto77
Just heard on FOX News that British authorities say the sushi restaurant he went to has to be closed for decontamination because there's so much polonium there.

It is closed, yes, but there isn't a massive amount there, it's purely for safety reasons. If there were huge amounts there, I would expect more people to have been affected, especially workers. So far, no other incidents have been reported of poisoning.

In a old James Bond 007 thiller the arch-villian, a three-nippled, $1,000,000-per-hit assasin by the name of Scaramanga(Sp?) used a specially built pistol and bullets made of gold, with the name of the intended victim inscribed on them.

Given the scarcity of the material used to kill this "ex-FSB" agent, gold seems to be a relatively cheap alternative!

Seriously, I think we need to focus more on the method of the murder and the implications posed by that method, than who might be to blame.

Let the evidence point out the most likely suspect!

Point. The victim was poisoned, using a relatively slow-acting poison. Assuming that quicker methods of execution were available, including methods utilizing faster-acting poisons, we must conclude that the assassin was Not concerned that the victim might disclose sensitive information.

Point. Poisonings lack the "immediacy" of other forms of execution. Poisonings take time to work their lethality. This is time the poisoner can use to escape or disassociate himself from the crime. In some cases, a clever poisoner can arrange to have his his strike delivered by an unknowing third party:

The scheming lady of the Manor slips a bit of arsnic from the hunky gardner's shed into the congac. The innocent butler delivers the lethal nightcap to the dottering lord of the house as his nightly soporific...and the butler is hauled off to the gallows!

In addition to providing the maximum amount of "escape time" to a potential assassin, slow poisons may also be employed to inflict the maximum amount of suffering upon the intended victim; which seems to have been the intention in this case. However, slow poisons have a considerable draw-back: the more time you allow the victim to suffer, the more likely it is that an antidote to the poison used will be found.

Unless the poison used has no antidote and the assassin knows exactly how much of the poison to use to insure a slow, painful death!

Given these two points it seems logical that this was a murder for revenge. Duh! Like we hadn't already concluded That days ago! But something still bothers me about this case: The weapon of choice, Polonium-210.

Like Scaramanga's golden bullets, using such a rare material as a weapon seems excessively exotic. In fact, Po-210 makes mere golden bullets seem like an insult!

It is almost as if the assassin (or his controller) wants to draw as much, or possibly more attention to the weapon used in the killing than to the fact of the murder itself!

Research on Po-210, which appears to have been the weapon used in this incident, shows it to be extremely rare, I believe that the article said only about 100 grams are produced per year. Thus, I assume that such rarity makes Po-210 extremely valuable, more valuable than a solid gold bullet, and far, far more valuable than other, more readily available slow-acting no-known-antidote poisons.

Talk about $600 hammers! Just think what a Po-210 assassin's kit would cost the typical government bureaucracy!

Additionally, although extremely dangerous in even small quanities (a lethal dose is said to be about the size of the period at the end of this line, if that large), such small amounts are also extremely difficult to handle safely.

A potential assassin using Po-210 is just as likely to kill himself by ingetsting or inhaling his weapon as he is killing his target with it. The only solution would be to have enough on hand to facilitae delivery of an adequate dose to the victim. But being highly radioactive, that much Po-210, if you could get it!, would surely set off radiation detectors at every port of entry.

Unless you knew which ports of entry didn't have radiation detectors.

Or unless your source for the material was already inside the country where the attack was to occur.

Research also, albeit tangentally, provides some support for a Russian conection: Polonium-210 was used in some early Soviet-era RTG's (Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generators) used in their space program. A relatively small amount of Po-210 will generate a significant amount of heat for power generation and maintenence of operational temperatures for on-board systems with minimal shielding. But I would consider this only circumstantial evidence, at best.

By far the most worrisome bit of information I was able to gleen regarding Po-210 is that, due to its facility as a strong neutron source, Polonium-210 can be used as a trigger For Nuclear Weapons!

Here's my take on the matter:

Suppose you belonged to an organization that was assembling a nuclear device in an "enemy" country. Some of the materials you required were provided to you, with a "wink and a nod", by agents of a former rival/current ally for the country destined to suffer your wraith.

As a quid pro quo, your suppler's agents ask you to "take care of" a traitor for them; direct provable involvement would be risky at the moment. Your device is all but ready to deploy, but your ethics, your faith requires you to provide your intended victim one last chance to repent, one last warning before suffering his fate.

What do you do to demonstrate to your enemy the futility of resistance and the consequence of his apostasy?

Why you kill two birds with one stone, one radioactive stone.

A legacy, and a clue, of what you have in store.

Originally posted by Aimless Searcher
I have some serious considerations about who poisoned whom. After all, that material is significantly lethal, and there has not been a report of anyone else dying of it (that we know of). However, if one handled it without extensive protective gear, they would be exposed and likely irradiated as well...

Polodium radiates alpha waves which are blocked by matter, so even something as flimsy as a paper bag would stop the radiation. Contamination can only really come from ingesting the victims bodily fluids, so the risk of cross-contamination between people is pretty minimal.

He was knocked off for outing Putin as a pedophile:

The Kremlin Pedophile

Russian President Putin Jokes About Israeli President Rape Charges

I Hope The Russians Love Their Children Too, But This Is Just Creepy

Are we starting to see a pattern here?

For those wanting more information on Polonium, it can be found in this article.

While overall interesting, perhaps the biggest bombshell came from something I'd never expect. Polonium is, first, commercially available, and second -- can be obtained by specially ordering it from OAK RIDGE NATIONAL LABORATORY!

Holy cow! Could Scaramanga's gold bullet -- as one poster so eloquently put it -- have been obtained from America?!