What's the difference between a cop standing on a corner and observing the street, and a camera surveilling the street? Nothing. It's in public, you have no reasonable expectation of privacy from view in public. I can stare at you as you eat your dinner on a park bench or in a diner. What law am I breaking?

It reminds me of the book Nineteen Eighty-Four in a sense...

Originally posted by jwater88
It reminds me of the book Nineteen Eighty-Four in a sense...

You got it!

Originally posted by Infoholic
IMO, the one and only difference is the "difference between random and constants". By putting a cop on every corner, the officer would be randomly searching around for people breaking the laws. If so and so wan't breaking the law, they would no longer be under surveillance of said officer, right? What reason would the officer have for continuing to watch every single step that the people/person makes? The camera on the other hand, placed on each corner, would actually provide the ability to constantly monitor each and every single person (dependant on number of cameras and people operating such cameras). How are the cameras to be used? Obviously, for them to work, the camera images would have to be monitored 24/7... or recorded. That in fact makes it resonable to assume that anyone/everyone would be "spied" on constantly.

What right does the government/law enforcement have to spy (insert your own terminology there) on the citizens? They don't. Period. The government cannot track your every single move. That would be essentially what the cameras are doing.

For the sake of discussion, we'll use your terminology. Spying.

Do I, as a private citizen, have the right to spy on you, or the gov't? Can I set up a camera on a street corner and constantly record the passersby?

If I can, why can't the police? It's their job to be observant.

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by Infoholic
IMO, the one and only difference is the "difference between random and constants". By putting a cop on every corner, the officer would be randomly searching around for people breaking the laws. If so and so wan't breaking the law, they would no longer be under surveillance of said officer, right? What reason would the officer have for continuing to watch every single step that the people/person makes? The camera on the other hand, placed on each corner, would actually provide the ability to constantly monitor each and every single person (dependant on number of cameras and people operating such cameras). How are the cameras to be used? Obviously, for them to work, the camera images would have to be monitored 24/7... or recorded. That in fact makes it resonable to assume that anyone/everyone would be "spied" on constantly.

What right does the government/law enforcement have to spy (insert your own terminology there) on the citizens? They don't. Period. The government cannot track your every single move. That would be essentially what the cameras are doing.

For the sake of discussion, we'll use your terminology. Spying.

Do I, as a private citizen, have the right to spy on you, or the gov't? Can I set up a camera on a street corner and constantly record the passersby?

If I can, why can't the police? It's their job to be observant.

Imo, because it just leads to more "spying"... then it could lead to why cant they set up cameras in public bathrooms? And plus you cant enforce the law if you are not a officer watching with your camera.

[edit on 19-11-2006 by jwater88]

Simple fact of the matter is that every city in the US, UK and Canada have been named as terrorist targets. Cameras wont stop a suicide bomber but as been proved in London, they can help trace where the attack originated and hope to stop future attacks.

All this talk of 'rights' and 'invasion of privacy' you want to keep, just forget it dude! Your a target of some really nasty people now and they are really pissed. If your not up to no good, why worry about the cameras? In fact by having these cameras you can worry a little less. As for the 5th amendment, them laws were made up for the cowboys days. These bastards I am talking about dont care for the rules!

Originally posted by jsobecky

Do I, as a private citizen, have the right to spy on you, or the gov't? Can I set up a camera on a street corner and constantly record the passersby?

If I can, why can't the police? It's their job to be observant.

So we have to go around feeling selfconcience about ourselves because big brother wants complete control. This is not about crime, this is about control. You ever walked down the street and give your significant other a good squeezing when no one is looking? Not anymore. Or those thousands of little things we do in public when no one is looking? Not anymore. How about that feeling of walking along the street feeling free and easy? Not anymore. Where does it stop? The people that agree to this are soft and their children are going to be softer and even more unable to think things through. they will be the ones here in the future saying. They need to put it in all the homes, I am not doing anything wrong!

Where have all the Americans gone?

[edit on 19-11-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
So we have to go around feeling selfconcience about ourselves because big brother wants complete control. This is not about crime, this is about control. You ever walked down the street and give your significant other a good squeezing when no one is looking? Not anymore. Or those thousands of little things we do in public when no one is looking? Not anymore. How about that feeling of walking along the street feeling free and easy? Not anymore. Where does it stop? The people that agree to this are soft and their children are going to be softer and even more unable to think things through. they will be the ones here in the future saying. They need to put it in all the homes, I am not doing anything wrong!

[edit on 19-11-2006 by LoneGunMan]

Why do you think that any of that needs to stop? I won't elaborate, but you'd be surprised what I do when walking down the street sometimes.... You do know that most CCTV camears are unmonitored, don't you? They only retrieve images if a crime is commited. If they are monitored, then why care anyway? Someone can easily just sit there in the street and watch you grab your partners boobs as easily as if they were sat in front of a camera!

Jeebus...You yanks are a paranoid lot.

Like I said earlier, you'd only complain if there were no cameras at all. Just how many robberies and violent crimes would be solved without any images of the perpertrator?

^The cameras in Orlando are monitored. I watched a female cop sitting in front of a bank of monitors watching. There were maybe 20 monitors and each one cycled through different views of the same area.

I can't speak about the situation in Orlando but I'd be very surprised if that City did have large numbers of of Police Officers monitoring the cameras. I have been inside the CCTV control room which is run by the local Council in my part of South London. The operator/ monitors are civilians-council employees. Although they do the occasional sweeps of areas, on most occasions they respond to Police requests to cover an area when an incident is taking place. We saw a suspected mugger followed by 8 cameras before he walked into the arms of Police Officers who had been in constant contact with the CCTV control room.
My main gripe with CCTV in the UK is that they are no longer being used primarily for crime detection and prevention but for the enforcement of parking and traffic regulations. In one local street alone this has netted The Local Council over £300k p.a.in parking fines (£55 of which was mine!)

originally posted by jwater88
Imo, because it just leads to more "spying"

So what? When the technology advances, you can be sure they will take advantage of it then, also.

... then it could lead to why cant they set up cameras in public bathrooms?

Baloney. Does not follow.

And plus you cant enforce the law if you are not a officer watching with your camera.

I can intervene in an assault. I can make a citizens arrest. Even if I could not do those things, whether or not I can enforce the law is not relavent.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
So we have to go around feeling selfconcience about ourselves because big brother wants complete control. This is not about crime, this is about control. You ever walked down the street and give your significant other a good squeezing when no one is looking?

Well, how about if some pervert wants to give your SO a good squeezing?

The people that agree to this are soft and their children are going to be softer and even more unable to think things through.

Think things through, eh? Let's see: do I want my loved ones to be protected? No, because I want to be able to tiptoe thru the tulips, feelin groovy, right?

Where have all the Americans gone?

Where they've always been. Right here.

Itss a pity they did not have them in the sixties, it might of helped in clearing up that little shooting.

Ok, maybe I'm missing something, but isn't the 4th ammendment about search and seizure? What do cameras in public places have to do with search and seizure? And in case you haven't noticed, cameras have been in stores and companies for ages! I'm not saying I like it, but when in a public place, there is no expectation of privacy, therefore no breaking the 4th ammendment. Guess you'll have to wait to pick your nose until you're in your own home, huh?

The 4th is about "being secure in your person", as well as what you mentioned.

Read the rest of the posts... I admitted, since I started the topic, that it actually does not violate the 4th... but it's more of a pre-emptive strike on it.

Big Brother watching is bad news. It's not about stopping crime. It's about control.

Originally posted by Infoholic
Big Brother watching is bad news.

No it is not. They installed surveillance cameras in a area that prostitutes hung out and overnight they disappeared.

In another area where they had high crime rates near a mall after installation of cameras the crime rate dropped over 70 percent. Similar reduction of crime rates were achieved in other areas also around bars and clubs but not as high a reduction, but the crime rate did drop.

Also you have to keep in mind that the private sector has been using hundreds of thousands perhaps millions of CCTVs for surveillance for years, so where is the big deal here

Some people are too paranoid if you ask me; they do have a good side to them well unless you tend to want to commit crimes that is.