The Soul does not exist (note to Mods at beginning)

Originally posted by whitewave
In a book entitled Megashift by James Rutz, several documented and some reported cases of being raised from the dead are mentioned. A few quotes:
"Friday Fax #7, 2002, tells of a team of five who prayed to bring back a decomposing body. Also, Friday Fax #20, 2002, gives accounts of two girls, ages three and one, who died of malaria and were resurrected....The site for Rolland Heidi is www.irismin.org." (page 52)

There is a Biblical verse that intimates that the meaning of "soul" is "sentient being". Genesis2:7 says, "So then Yahweh God formed man [of the] dust of the ground, and breathed in his nostrils the breath of life-and man became a living soul." (Rotherham's emphasized bible) Man was formed; all put together, "human" but not yet "alive". Like when we die, all of our parts are there (usually), our body/physical self is still "human" but that which made us sentient beings is gone.

The soul/sentient being is not immortal. Obviously sentient beings can die. The bible clearly states that "the soul that sins shall die" and "the dead know not anything." See Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalms 6:5; Isaiah 38:18; Ecclesiastes 9:5; Psalms 115:17; Job 14:21; Isa. 63:16; 1John 3:15; 5:12. There are other verses if you're interested but these should give you an idea of what the Bible says about death and the soul. Sorry I'm not computer literate enough to know how to do proper links but you should be able to type in the site addresses and check out the info anyway.

First, I would like to say I respect how you were able to share from the Bible without it feeling like a tele-evanglist was preaching at me. No Im not be sarcastic, I do appreciate the post, well written.

In regards to the first paragraph you stated, thanks for sharing that, as it touches upon a subject that I barely brought up in this thread, and would like to look at it more now.

The people brought back to life after decomposing, etc,. are very fascinating to me, and I do not doubt it...I dont know how well this is documented, but I believe its possible.

HOWEVER, I would like to know this.
When they woke up, did they have a near death experience, or were they more like a computer that was rebooted...I tend to go for the latter.

For further clarification, I believe science could go and resurrect a body that is brain dead.
My thoughts is that these people may be able to share a near-death experience, but you will find that it is very brief. (though the mind is complex, and it could feel like an eternity to them, kind of like dreaming feels like days, yet it goes by in no time.)

What Im trying to say is that when someone dies, i.e. heart failure, but is not brain dead, this is when the near-death experience happens. Then after being braindead...its over.
But if you were to "raise them back to life" It would be like rebooting a computer so to speak.
If there is a near-death experience it is what took place before hand.

I would even go further to say that they might not have or remember a near-death experience if you "re-booted" them after being brain dead.

The reason being is that its like some information gets in the trash can on a hard computer crash.
See, one dude died, and they prayed and prayed, and he came back to life and took on a totally different role. I think he went from a scientits/doctor to an artist.
The mind rebooted, no near-death experience...and it re-collected the info and basically took on a new personality.

Let this be a warning, so to speak, not a dangerous warning, but rather look at the possiblities.
We think we are the job role we are in, etc. We are connected by lines of events...past and future, but all happens now. We remember the past, now. We think about the future now.
At any moment we can willingly change our whole identity so to speak, as this dude that had his brain basically "re-wired" upon coming back to life. This whole "me" is an illusion in a grander sense. Most people can say, "yeah we are an illusion", but they dont realize that at every moment they are only living out an illusion that they could change in that present moment.
Nothing from past or present exist...only what happens now.

Now how much of this will actually make people ponder, I dont know, as I have quickly written all of this down. But this is really exciting stuff.

Thanks for the post, it was great for thought.

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by denythestatusquo

You pose a good question: if we reincarnate then why do we forget between lives? The answer I came across is this: if we remembered every life we lived then we would tend to focus on the pain of each life and the accumulation of that pain and suffering would have the effect of stopping our development. Thus, a lifetime is about learning certain lessons and not trying to grapple with hundreds or even thousands of years of pain.

Even in Judaism you can be reincarnated into a rock. (yep...though this is not focused on, and as far as I remember wasnt mentioned in the book of reincarnation by rabbi hayim vital, another rabbi...forgot right off hand.)

Does it sound wierd, well not really if our particles shoot out everywhere. Who knows.
At this point there is quite a bit of info that has been shared on this thread to ponder.
A lot of good info has been posted, and for the user who may feel overwhelmed by all the different view points...dont despair...you will start forumlating a shape for your puzzle to look like. Things will fit together, we cant necessarily expect the puzzle to fall together the first instance...it comes with patience.

Back to your statement of not remembering 1000s of years of pain, well then it seems it defeats the purpose of reincarnation. From one perspective, it would seem like this type of reincarnation is a trick to keep us from finding out who we truly are...so that in each life we keep serving the system, and never rise above. I had an interesting "dream" Perhaps one of the first memories of my life, concerning God, etc. I wont share it now, as I need to figure it out myself, but it is quite interesting at a young age to have such a dream, so I would assume it means something...to me, as dreams are personal anyway. My point being is that there may be something to this whole reincarnation thing...if it truly exist the way that many "new agers" view it. (sorry if thats not the correct term, dont like really labelling people, as I know new age has gotten a bad rap among some.

Peace

Dalen

Just imagine, that we are software. In that case it will be much more easy to answer who we are and how our Universe is build up. To build such Universe you need at least 3 components: building bricks (we may call it – Energy), some kind of Logic (how to create something from these bricks) and Force (that implements this logic). That’s all. Very simple. No need to ask if there is real world outside our senses, if there is past, present or future, are there any other universes (build from the same Energy on a basis of other logic – why not). And who we are? Do we have souls? We are just parts of this Universal software that is processing energy on a basis of Universal logic with more, or less independence (consciousness). Do we have possibility to travel in time and between parallel Universes? It depends on the Logic of our Universe. If it is hard, - it will be difficult to travel, if it is soft (depends on your independence, or consciousness), in that case – you may travel, or even change your own Universe logic.
Can it be true? Why not? The deeper we go into micro world the more we understand that there is no Matter at all, just energy and probabilities and the logic, how this energy is organized.
Of course there is one unclear question. Is this Universal Logic developed by itself or it was introduced from outside, by a higher level software…
Romas

Interesting thread.

I'm sort of agnostic about all this, but lean towards the idea that we do have a soul.

There was a rather interesting BBC documentary many years ago now about a child born to a family in India. As soon as he could talk, he spoke about his wife and family and that he "really" lived in a large town many miles away. The family, obviously, were freaked, but he was so insistent, they took him there. He led them unerringly through the streets of a town he had (as the child) never visited, to the shop he claimed he used to run. He then identified himself to his "wife" and family. He had died a violent death, as far as I can remember during a robbery at the shop.

The families, obviously, were both pretty disturbed but wound up getting along.

There's also a book called Many Lives, Many Masters by Brian Weiss, which describes the author's journey toward belief in an immortal soul. He was a psychiatrist who practised hypnotic regression, and one day, quite accidentally, managed to regress a patient all the way into a previous life. He then began applying the idea to more of his patients and got some really good results, as for some, psychological problems had their roots in previous existences and when those issues were dealt with, they were able to really enjoy life as never before.

There's a section in it in which he asserts that reincarnation used to be part and parcel of Christianity until some Holy Roman Emperor decided that the idea of having many chances to get things right made people lazy - which is when references to it were removed and the doctrine of one life and resurrection became part of the Christian religion.

I'm rather like you in that I was brought up somewhat in the Christian tradition, but never cared for it much. I never found the idea of someone dying for my sins very logical or appealing... I mean thanks, but really? Did I ask you to die for my sins? And sins? I haven't done anything, and I'm already a sinner?

There's way too much blackmail and control freakery about all that, thanks.

Right from the first I was far more drawn to the Taoist tradition. In my early teens I came across a copy of the Tao Te Ching and its astringent insistence that morality arises only when we've lost the Tao really hit home. Life is way too complex and various for our response to it to be rule-driven. The idea that one can align oneself with the Tao and respond naturally and without conscious thought to life is far more appealing.

I had to find a form of words there that did not imply any ideas of "correctness". The whole idea of right and wrong is viewed as misleading and unnecessary. The closest one can come is the idea of "health", or of "life".

Later in life I was lucky enough to come across someone who is unique in that, while he is a Westerner, he (quite literally) embodies the Taoist "spiritual" tradition. I put that word in quote marks not to weaken it, but to imply that what's going on is far more than spiritual. What I like about Taoism is that there is the consistent acknowledgement that everything is rooted in the body. There's a great deal more than that going on, but health begins in the physical body and extends through a series of ever finer chi bodies encompassing the energetic, the emotional, the intellectual, the psychic (and a few more I won't go into right now).

The proof of the pudding, for me, is that this guy can actually do things that we consider impossible. I was lucky enough to do a week's retreat with him in California, and one of the methods he uses for teaching is direct transmission. We were learning a chi gung meditation designed to clear blockages within the chi field, and this involves knowing and concentrating on specific points within the body which he terms "energy gates". This is someone who can directly transmit the position of a given energy gate to a room full of 200 or so people, such that you actually feel it in your body. He stands at one end of the room, you're in your meditation posture, and he'll say, for example, we're going to concentrate on the energy gates in the spine... and when he begins to transmit, blammo! You really feel things happening in your spine, absolutely unequivocally.

The "scientific" (or, as I think of it, "reductionist") viewpoint simply says this kind of thing is impossible. I've had conversations with University professors who have tried to tell me that what I experienced never happened or was the result of "suggestion". I'm sorry, but I don't take well to being told I'm an idiot, albeit very politely, by someone who actually has no clue of what's involved. Bruce Frantzis (see the link) is one of the world's top martial artists, and a Taoist priest, and a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine. You can't BS in martial arts. It's that simple. If you try, you get kicked from here to Beijing. I've also studied with his pupils, and the people who've been with him for a long time are not only really cool people, they've learned a lot.

The Taoist teaching on matters of the soul is rather interesting. According to that tradition, our consciousness is formed from chi (which we might rather crudely think of as "life force", although this does violence to the actual meaning of the word, which is way too complex to really go into here), and when we die, that chi dissolves back into the world. However, if one's life experiences are intense, some aspects of our chi field might hold together long enough to form part of a new-born's chi, which explains the intermittent occurrences of "reincarnation": and part of the spiritual tradition of Taoism is refining our various "bodies" (we exist on eight levels, according to this tradition) until we integrate and solidify them as a "shen", which might be roughly construed as a soul.

As I say, my base position on all this is that I'm agnostic: however, I lean towards the Taoist tradition primarily because I've come across someone who is part of a living spiritual tradition that can actually get things done and is remarkably free from moralizing and hypocrisy, unlike Christianity, which takes an altogether less mature attitude - "do as we say (not as we do) or you'll burn in Hell forever!"

You'll also look in vain for instances of Taoist inquisitions, or persecution of other religion. And this over a time scale roughly double that of Christianity. I really like that, I have to say.

Anyway, that, for what it's worth, is my perspective on whether or not we have a soul. For more details on the Taoist attitude, I can only recommend Bruce's books Relaxing into your Being and The Great Stillness, which expand on the concepts I've so briefly touched on here. And although I really like the Taoist tradition, I really hope that what I've said here doesn't come across as proselytising. My belief is that we each have our own path to tread in this life - one of my friends is a born-again Christian, and while I may have issues with that whole area, becaue of all his life experiences up to now, it's absolutely right for him.

Originally posted by rich23
There was a rather interesting BBC documentary many years ago now about a child born to a family in India. As soon as he could talk, he spoke about his wife and family and that he "really" lived in a large town many miles away. The family, obviously, were freaked, but he was so insistent, they took him there. He led them unerringly through the streets of a town he had (as the child) never visited, to the shop he claimed he used to run. He then identified himself to his "wife" and family. He had died a violent death, as far as I can remember during a robbery at the shop.

There's a section in it in which he asserts that reincarnation used to be part and parcel of Christianity until some Holy Roman Emperor decided that the idea of having many chances to get things right made people lazy - which is when references to it were removed and the doctrine of one life and resurrection became part of the Christian religion.

I had to find a form of words there that did not imply any ideas of "correctness". The whole idea of right and wrong is viewed as misleading and unnecessary. The closest one can come is the idea of "health", or of "life".

What I like about Taoism is that there is the consistent acknowledgement that everything is rooted in the body. There's a great deal more than that going on, but health begins in the physical body and extends through a series of ever finer chi bodies encompassing the energetic, the emotional, the intellectual, the psychic (and a few more I won't go into right now).

The proof of the pudding, for me, is that this guy can actually do things that we consider impossible. I was lucky enough to do a week's retreat with him in California, and one of the methods he uses for teaching is direct transmission. We were learning a chi gung meditation designed to clear blockages within the chi field, and this involves knowing and concentrating on specific points within the body which he terms "energy gates". This is someone who can directly transmit the position of a given energy gate to a room full of 200 or so people, such that you actually feel it in your body. He stands at one end of the room, you're in your meditation posture, and he'll say, for example, we're going to concentrate on the energy gates in the spine... and when he begins to transmit, blammo! You really feel things happening in your spine, absolutely unequivocally.

The Taoist teaching on matters of the soul is rather interesting. According to that tradition, our consciousness is formed from chi (which we might rather crudely think of as "life force", although this does violence to the actual meaning of the word, which is way too complex to really go into here), and when we die, that chi dissolves back into the world. However, if one's life experiences are intense, some aspects of our chi field might hold together long enough to form part of a new-born's chi, which explains the intermittent occurrences of "reincarnation": and part of the spiritual tradition of Taoism is refining our various "bodies" (we exist on eight levels, according to this tradition) until we integrate and solidify them as a "shen", which might be roughly construed as a soul.

- First, the story about the kid in India is amazing.
It has my mind racing at the possiblities as to how this could have happened.
Luckily you have some explanations in the last paragraph of this quote which is fascinating indeed, and needs time just to think about to really get the implications of what is being said. (That is unless one is already familar with this as a part of their belief system.)

- As far as Christianity, I do not wish to get in a debate with Christians on this particular thread about this...but I do agree with you. Reincarnation, which is integral to Judaism, obviously would tie over into Christianity. Infact it does, and all traces of it has not been wiped out from the Bible.
Christians are unaware (as many Jews who are not practicing) of the concept of Reincarnation.
Rabbi Hayim Vital has a nice treatise on it Called the Gates of Reincarnation...not light reading, by any means, and there are other rabbinical sources to, in fact...it again, has been a part of Judaism.

- I also agree with what you wrote about right and wrong. Christianity deals in absolutes.
Black and white...no shades of grey inbetween. but that is all that is inbetween...you transverse one to the other by the shades. It only seems horrible if you believe one is evil and the other is pure where you are "supposed to be", as you will never feel totally isolated from the percieved "evil", why...cause there is no separation. One flows into the other. Duality is really a game.
Aspects of evil are actually good, and some aspects of good are evil. Point proven is the Christians continued crusades in killing people in the name of Christ. (point well taken concerning non-violence in Taosim) People end up turning into the thing they fight. I cannot make this much clearer, and on the surface it will appear to a Christian that I am promoting evil, something totally unnatural and wrong. For this, I can only say, "look past the words".
The one teaching that has helped me over the past few years is Eckhart Tolle. Acceptance, and allowing what is to be. Does not mean not acting, but knowing that all that can be done, can only be done now. Like Yoda in starwars..when you are patient you will know what is the right thing to do. What is good now and in this situation may not be good later, etc.

- As far as your instructor, this indeed is interesting, I only wish I had the opportunity to learn chi-gun, etc. (I suppose one can "learn" on their own though stillness, and letting the "life-force" energy flow through them. (again, words...but that works for now.)

- now the last bit is really interesting, I would like to get my mind around this a bit more, as this really gets to the topic at hand.
The soul basically going back to that from which it came, not existing, at least the way we know.
Sounds bit like starwars, which I have no problem with, in that the ultimate was to somehow maintain ones identiy in the force. But until this is clear how to do this, the safest bet is to try to use science to extends ones life on this earth to guarantee ones existence. (Suppose that could be looked at as the emperor from starwars.) Who know, maybe both can be traversed if one truley understood the nature of how to be in they physical, and also non-physical. (Going between ones own parallel, unlimted potentialities at will.)

Thanks for the post,

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by RomasOf course there is one unclear question. Is this Universal Logic developed by itself or it was introduced from outside, by a higher level software…

Romas

Yes, if we could understand the beginning, it would help in understanding the "end" result.
What is the cause of all causes. Sounds like an insane question, but I have asked it, and still do.
Consider the easy way out...God.
Well what made God?
Responce: no one
Well, God is made up of something, so where did the particles that made up God came from, and so on and so forth.

Until you say, "wait". And we step away from the box and start considering other possiblities.
i.e. Time seems to have a beginning and end, but we know that you can be outside of time according to quantum physics. No time, can help explain it, as there is no beginning and no end.

But then you say, still how did the things get here.
Simple answer, yet not complete...it came from nothing. no-thing. Ayin Sof (in Kabbalah) and the top of the "God-head" in Christianity, which is the unknowable God...for it was no-thing.

Of course science wants to say that no-thing is something to. As they say now we have darkmatter in space, which once before was called nothing, now its a something...darkmatter.

Now this may all seem irrelevant, babbling, and in a sense it is. Yet, in everything is a hint of the truth...and you never know what is said that may or may not trigger the next line of thought for someone else, or even in your own mind as one contemplates such things.

Often that which we said, is perceieved from a totally different point of view then we can imagine, because we all come from different experiences. Yet at the same time we are "entangled" by the means of quantum physics, therefore we can learn from each other despite the differences.

In short, yes, understanding the source, would clarify a lot of things.

My apologies if this post appears mostly like a bunch of babbling, in which case, hopefully you skipped it.

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
I'm putting up some links for your own investigation because there is a number of sites dealing with this issue both pro and con (of course..). You can decide for yourself since the arguments are made for the conclusion offered.

ghosts
soulsweight

If the soul can be weighed, then it can be located...but it has not been located, unless its the neuro-network. If its the neurons, perhaps its because the "energy" fizzles out upon being braindead therefore causing the lost weight? Just an idea.
In reality though, measurement is a tricky thing, I weigh something different everytime I step on the scales.

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by etshrtslr
dAlen,

There are so many things in your last post that Ronald L. Mallett addressed on the C2C show. I wish I could hang around and try and answer them but its saturday night and I must take the wife out.

Namaste to all.

I looked at the link, as I thought it was to a specific lecture, perhaps I overlooked something, but It seems that you actually attended a lecture, not listened to it on line.
So sure, when you get the time, would love to hear more about it. (Take your time, its best spent with family... )

Thanks for the post

Peace

Dalen

If humans have sould then would single celled life, fish,birds,bugs and trees would they all have souls? They are just differant mixes of DNA and the only differance between a human and a fruit fly is a few billion strands of DNA. What was our sould before we existed?

I just think the picture is to big for us to play a big role and the only logical route to immortality is if we evolve to our apex of evolution and create our own rules of existence. If we make it to the apex of evolution then I think we will have souls and live on in non-coporeal form because its not the single person thats important but out species as a whole who must get to the apex.

Think about it, if we make it throught the next million or so years people wont die, they will have power beyond comprehension and imo will have the ability to create an artificial pocket dimension or universe that can hold all the minds of all the people that ever were but thats a long shot.

Originally posted by dAlen
Duality is really a game.

Something like this is expressed in the monad or "yin/yang" symbol: the black and white parts of the circle each have a dot of their opposite in the centre, and one way to visualise it is that each dot grows to envelop its opposite colour. Note that these black/white, yin/yang dualities are not "good" or "evil". The origin of the words "yin" and "yang" are to do with the shaded and lit sides of a mountain, and express movement, so that a somewhat clumsy translation might be "darkening" and "lightening".

(point well taken concerning non-violence in Taosim)

Of course... it's not that simple. Taoism is about inner peace, to be sure: but there's also a fairly robust attitude to the matter of getting along in the world. There are all sorts of ways of defusing conflict using verbal and nonverbal means, but it is recognised that there are certain times when physical action is necessary. Bruce said once that he was invited to move back to New York to teach, and didn't want to live there. He'd witnessed a mugging, and found he had to, ah, intervene rather decisively, which he found not to his taste.

People end up turning into the thing they fight.

You are so, so right about this. It's something I know for myself... and sometimes I get into arguments on this board and I appal myself. Ewww.

And on a more general level, I feel like I'm really starting to undestand that there is no right and wrong, no good and evil. There's just the dance of duality and change, and people responding to the energies of a situation according to their natures and past experiences.

I say this, but of course there are threads on this board where I rail against perceived evils. Whatever...

The one teaching that has helped me over the past few years is Eckhart Tolle. Acceptance, and allowing what is to be. Does not mean not acting, but knowing that all that can be done, can only be done now. Like Yoda in starwars..when you are patient you will know what is the right thing to do. What is good now and in this situation may not be good later, etc.

This is very like the Taoist idea of wu-wei, or action through non-action. One of the best explanations of this actually comes up in War and Peace, in the chapter where the Russian general meditates upon his army's readiness for battle. It's amazing to a student of Taoism how closely Tolstoy's thinking parallels the tradition.

If you're really interested in learning chi gung, you can almost certainly find a teacher near you. It is possible to do some stuff on your own but I found it very difficult, and benefited enormously (it would surpass the word limits of one post to explain) from my week's retreat. You can find instructors in all parts of the world at Bruce's website, and I do recommend people taught by him, having been to some others and found Bruce's methods rather more direct and detailed. However, there are plenty of instructors around - maybe four or five in my home town alone.

Sounds bit like starwars, which I have no problem with, in that the ultimate was to somehow maintain ones identiy in the force. But until this is clear how to do this, the safest bet is to try to use science to extends ones life on this earth to guarantee ones existence.

Well, actually, Taoism has many specific techniques. Some transform the physical body - Bruce's teacher was a tiny little stick man who could throw the 200-lb Bruce around at will - and he was in his late seventies. Some transform the various chi bodies to transcend death, and there are many so-called Taoist immortals. Allegedly, Bruce can communicate with them - I have heard this through a friend who knows him rather well and has studied with him very extensively.

Science has quite a bit to offer, but until it moves away from its mechanistic models of what people are, it will always be barking up the wrong tree to some extent IMO. And one of the things I find intensely irritating is a tendency to use "mumbo-jumbo" words and phrases that sound important and scientific, but on closer inspection are simply labels that have no explanatory power whatsoever.

Three, interrelated examples of this: "psychosomatic", "placebo", and "emergent properties of systems".

I think the band Mutemath put it rather eloquently when they said:

"And we stare at the sun,
But we never see anything there.
Just the glare has become
All that we'll ever see there.

Caught, we are caught
And we are spun around on the truth.
Maybe we don't need to know
Any more than we have to.


Perhaps we need to realize some questions can never be answered. To those who believe in a God(s), does it make sense that an All-powerful Being(s) would stoop to our level to explain the intricate mysteries of His/Her/It's design? Does a gardener explain to an ant why he is planting a rosebush instead of marigolds? It's absolutely ridiculous to think we are big enough to demand all the answers. If we do have souls and God(s) and heaven and hell do exist, then when you die, you will recieve the reward you were promised by following the tenets of your Faith. And if God doesn't exist, then it was sure nice to have something to believe in while you were living. And now you're not living and you don't care because you don't exist.

To those who follow the Principles of Science: we have no conclusive proof of the exsistence of a "soul". Perhaps someday we will develop some way of knowing absolutely. Maybe that day is tomorrow. Maybe that day is 1000 years from now. People living pre-Columbus thought the earth was flat. And some went to their graves believing it. Does it really make a difference? If death is truly the end, who really cares? You cease to exist. End of story. Why bother to know anything?

My point is this: we can debate ad nauseam about whether a soul exists or not. But eventually, that debate becomes a hindrance to us. We get bogged down on the questions we can't answer. I realize this board exists for the purpose of intelligent debate and discourse, but perhaps some questions are better left unanswered. Let's just admit, as a species, that we don't have all the answers right now. And perhaps we never will.

Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by etshrtslr
dAlen,

There are so many things in your last post that Ronald L. Mallett addressed on the C2C show. I wish I could hang around and try and answer them but its saturday night and I must take the wife out.

Namaste to all.

I looked at the link, as I thought it was to a specific lecture, perhaps I overlooked something, but It seems that you actually attended a lecture, not listened to it on line.
So sure, when you get the time, would love to hear more about it. (Take your time, its best spent with family...

)

Thanks for the post

Peace

Dalen

Im sorry for the confusion...I posted a link to the University he works at. Here is a link to the show on C2C....you have to be a member to listen to the podcast but imo its well worth the nominal cost.....lots of good info in some shows.

www.coasttocoastam.com...

[edit on 19-11-2006 by etshrtslr]

Originally posted by dAlenNot everyone looks at each individual forum, and may not post...if its just in religion, or in paranormal for example.

You're right, I don't like to come here because I am a Secular Humanist. I would never have responded if it started on the BTS forum.

Good luck with the mod gods!

I've learned through my conversion from basicly an atheist to a believer, all on my own, through unbiased research and reading and thinking, that the key to having the faith in your soul and the judgement and god's kingdom is that there IS no proof. You have to make a "leap of faith", you have to take a gamble, you have to make a CHOICE.

It is not proven and cannot be proven until the end comes and then it will be pointless. If it was proven everyone would believe, evil would not exist in its current form, "Satan" would have zero control over anything, and we'd be living in Utopia.

When proof of God or soul is provided, it removes ultimately making an unbiast decision on something that isn't necessary certain -- if your going to believe the good or the bad or neither, and it does that by default.

You cant have both. Sure, there may be a few idiots that would choose damnation in the face of "scientific proof" of God and the soul but thats not what we're talking about.

I have not read that some people have no soul in the Bible. It says if your name isnt in the book of life you will be cast into hellfire at judgement. The book of life is the name of everyone created by God. So if mankind cloned human beings, IMO their names would not be in the perverbial 'book of life'. Conservatives might say the book of life is all people born under wedlock, and if thats true, i am not in the book and damned to eternal hell. but I know that is not the truth, but disinformation and i discard it.

You quote Solomon alot, remember this is the guy who was dabbling in Kabbal magic and ended up turning to Idolatry and losing his "powers granted by God" in old age.

King David and Yeshua the Annointed both came from this bloodline..

Originally posted by dAlen

Originally posted by denythestatusquo
I'm putting up some links for your own investigation because there is a number of sites dealing with this issue both pro and con (of course..). You can decide for yourself since the arguments are made for the conclusion offered.

ghosts
soulsweight

If the soul can be weighed, then it can be located...but it has not been located, unless its the neuro-network. If its the neurons, perhaps its because the "energy" fizzles out upon being braindead therefore causing the lost weight? Just an idea.
In reality though, measurement is a tricky thing, I weigh something different everytime I step on the scales.

Peace

Dalen

Well when you have a circuit running (an electrical circuit) when its running it runs at a certain capacity, that capacitys level is determined by the need of the machine its powering. ..
When you cut the power, where does the capacity go?, (the source of the energy right?)
Its not that the energy or neuro-net is 'gone' its just the energy/force that ran that machine is gone... it no longer accepted the force, in a sense, a block caused the circuit to no longer be a 'complete circuit' ... anyone who has taken electrical class should understand what I'm trying to say...

The firing of our neurons is just a comfortable/accepted path that that energy 'USED' to go thru.. if a block occurs the machine will shut down, until its 'corrected' (unblocked) and 'fired' up again ... (not with electricity) but with life-force energy....


a good thing to keep in mind is that LIGHT has a mass... Experiments by David Hudson have shown that light has a weight and 'structure'...

[edit on 11/19/2006 by PuRe EnErGy]

Originally posted by runetang
I have not read that some people have no soul in the Bible.

You quote Solomon alot, remember this is the guy who was dabbling in Kabbal magic and ended up turning to Idolatry and losing his "powers granted by God" in old age.

This indeed is an interesting topic, that I would wish to do justice to, which would need a thread of its own. Maybe one day I will put some stuff together as some may find it interesting, but goes a bit beyond the intent of this particular thread.

(I might have said something more in some of my other post regarding this, but not sure.)

Thanks for your post

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by Matyas

Originally posted by dAlenNot everyone looks at each individual forum, and may not post...if its just in religion, or in paranormal for example.

You're right, I don't like to come here because I am a Secular Humanist. I would never have responded if it started on the BTS forum.

Good luck with the mod gods!

Due to the above situation, this thread, for me is closed. I will no longer be replying to it, as it is in Faith & spirituality. As I do appreciate the people of faith that posted, I made clear throughout the post that I did not want to take as an answer that of the view point of fatih & theology.
But, I wanted proof, which is more scientific & medical, as what is the soul...is it a neuronetwork?
What happens if you freeze a body...does the soul freeze to? Then lets find out what a soul is. Lets go as far as we can in this, looking at how the mind projects images, and the mind is actually what "sees". This could answere Astral projections, NDE's with non-braindead people, etc.

The point is simple. I placed it in the Website related forum. It says under it that its for all post that do not fit a particular forum. Seeing that I wanted responces from the science/medical community, yet not denying the paranormal and religious group...I posted it there.

In one day, the post proved itself to be in the right spot, as in a little over 24 hours it had 7 pages with over 2k views. Once moved here, days pass and its still on the same page.
The mod who moved it said that BTS doesnt rack as many points...take my points, I said...Im here for conversation...and when something is working, I am surprised that someone tried to "fix" what wasnt broken.

Anyway...rant, rave, whatever. It all is as it is.
I wanted to thank everyone for their participation in this thread, and only hope in the future mods will be careful when moving threads that are moving quickly. MOve threads that arent getting responces...perhaps its due to them being in the wrong place.
(Kind of funny, there is a questions for John Lear in the Web Related forum, and he is all about U.F.O.s seemed that would have been moved after how many pages.)

Again, this is my final comment on this, and again, thank all who participated.

Peace to all (even the mods, people just view life differently, and that is as it is.)

Dalen

Had some computer problems this weekend, and got them fixed last night, finally...I was going to check back in with some more ideas, but I'm at work again, so forgive me if my post seems rushed...

Originally posted by dAlen
Hopefully I wasnt misunderstood with my comment above....

.......

By no means was I referring to your comments in a sarcastic way...just my own irony.

Peace

Dalen

No, I understood completely what you were saying....No offense taken or anything! Thanks for the WATS btw....I think that is the first one I have ever gotten!

Back to the subject at hand....

I like the ideas tossed out about Taoism, and I am now going to delve into its knowledge for myself...I feel ashamed that it has not been a part of my studies up until this point....

As far as the "21 grams" theory, I find it interesting..I will have to look into it more to form my own strong opinion, but as of now I do not think it has to do with a soul exiting the body....I would much more believe it has to do with bodily fluids (bowels?) or something else physical in nature, not spiritual....To me, a spiritual entity or soul can have no physical mass because it is pure energy....it is not a PHYSICAL being....I'm not saying you are wrong in your theory, I am just stating the way I see it, so please, don't take offense...

Now, I will describe another part of my grand hypothesis that I began to shed light on earlier....

It has been brought up in this thread that things almost have a "starwars" feel to them...I have said over and over and over and over again that George Lucas is truly one of the greatest minds in the history of the world. What he did with Star Wars and its universe was brilliant. He blends beliefs of religion, science, and fundamental human consciousness into one story that captivates most who watch his films...

We all speak of an energy, be it religious in nature, or everpresent evolutionary change, that formed life in the universe and continues to do so as we speak....It is constantly recycling itself, and it can have an effect on everything around us...

George Lucas calls this the Force..to quote Star Wars:

"The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together."

"For my ally in the Force. And a powerful ally it is. Life creates it, makes it grow. It's energy surrounds us and binds us. Luminous beings are we...(Yoda pinches Luke's shoulder)...not this crude matter. (a sweeping gesture) You must feel the Force around you. (gesturing) Here, between you...me...the tree...the rock...everywhere! Yes, even between this land and that ship!"

Brilliant.....and all he did was get out the fundamentals of what Science and Religion teach, and find the similarities....

So I guess, as far as this thread goes, I'm trying to point out that my belief is kind of like Star Wars (sounds crazy doesn't it?)...

We all have souls, yes....They are all unique forms of energy that originated from some greater Force...What we do each passing moment has an effect on not only our own energy, but the greater Force, and the energy of those around us.....Sounds a lot like the reasoning behind religion teaching harmony doesn't it?

When we die, our physical form decays just like all physcal matter does, it is recycled by other organisms, and the energy from our physical matter is returned to the Earth in another form of physical energy....What happens to our non-physical form?..I believe it's energy is not really recycled, but continues to exist on another plane that we cannot understand.....Our memory lives on in those that knew us, and those who loved us, but most of us seem to think that we will someday encounter that energy (or entity?) of dead people again in another form...If not religously, in a scientifc way....Will we recognize?...I don't know..

What I do know, is that we are in a sad world, where people do live for themselves and their own material wealth....It sounds really pessimistic, but I do believe that to be generally correct.......

It also saddens me that a lot of the pain and negativity in this world is caused by extremism in religion...Too many people have an agenda for themselves that they completely disregard their fellow human beings...

It also was quoted in this thread about the "soul that sins shall die"...I have thought about this scripture for a long time....I have always had the hope that it means that all the bad stuff we do takes away a little bit of our soul energy at the time of death....The more someone sins against themselves and humanity, the lesser the spiritual (or soul) energy survives the death of physical body....I'm not taking the scripture literally to mean that if you sin, your soul ceases to exist....I do believe in a place such as Hell though, where negative energy goes and a general awareness occurs so that the negative soul knows that it resides in a negative state.....

Well, thats a little more for you all to reflect upon...I hope I have solved more questions than I have raised.....although, questions often lead you to find your own answers....so it wouldn't be a bad thing...

I encourage you all to think of someone other than yourself for even a brief moment today....Do a good deed for someone that you don't really know, or someone that could use a helping hand....Infect someone else's energy with your own goodness...We can all use it ourselves sometime, and you never know when the favor will be returned.....Even if all my theories are completely wrong, what harm can be done in aiding someone else?

Have a great day everyone...

Interesting topic. i need to catch up with the thread, but i thought i would offer some initiatl (negative) feedback first, even though i do like dAlen, and enjoy reading his threads and his posts. forgive me for my initial responses, i still like you being here on ATS, i promise.

thanks in advance,
john

Originally posted by dAlen

I grew up in religion...worked in religious organizations...I know Judaism & Christianity inside out.

no. you do not. yes. you do.

One day, or rather on my path of spritual enlightment, I begin to open up and stop accepting things dished out to me by those who claimed authority.

Ah, so your path of spiritual enlightenment is being open minded by not accepting things. how is that working out for you today? Oh, i see. there is no soul is the conclusion.

- Solomon even said that we go back and remain in the dust and that is it, final, period...nothing more. He couldnt make it clearer. (This is canonized, for those of you who care about such things.

)

is that what he said? i thought you knew judaism inside out?

- those who say science proves it...here is what I say.
The soul is equated to immortality. Show me one person who rose from the dead, or did not die.

Show me one thing that ceases to exist. Show me one thing that when you apply enough pressure to it from all directions it will cease to exist.

the bible says we are creatures of light. Science has come to the same conclusion within the last 80 years. protons, electrons, and neutrons are not made of matter. they are light and energy, condensed into something that appears to be matter, but is not.

I dont know anyone, nor do you. The only thing is things passed down. Sorry, one man doesnt do it for me, and near-death aint good enough. The guy/gal needs to be still living and over 1k years, or dead in the ground or cremated, and come back in solid form, or in a way that is undeniable by anyone.

fox tunnel, alaska. lifeforms taken from the permafrost that were alive over a million years ago, are still alive today. i believe that overshoots your 1,000 year requirement by 999,998 years, at least.

I think the whole soul thing is a conspiracy.

me too. i believe our soul does breath together. the word "conspiracy" means to breath together, unless you accepting things that are dished out to you by those who claimed authority, i.e. Web stirrers webstir and the "all fib, bet".

Christianity teaches it to...but they would have to read the Bible for themselves like its the first time...finding all the inconsistencies, allowing them to be, and take the information for what its worth...and then it will be like a gold mine.

The bible has not 1 inconsistancy. you have not really read it for the first time.
if you had read the bible for the first time, and allowed yourself to take in the information for what it is, not what you think it's worth, then you would have your own answer to this discussion you require. but instead of reading the bible for yourself the first time, and allowing yourself to take the information in for what it is, you have chosen your path of enlightenment to be:

One day, or rather on my path of spritual enlightment, I begin to open up and stop accepting things dished out to me by those who claimed authority.

So anyone have solid proof. I dont expect any responce to this, because if there were proof of a soul, where everyone could believe it, then there would not be this discussion.

there is proof of a soul, and it is one where everyone can believe it. in your current state of mind, you can not percieve it. but, it is you who require this discussion, because you choose not to believe it.


i've said the same thing in dozens of threads already, so let me try one more analogy that is consistant with what science is saying:

there is jigsaw puzzle with 400,000,002,000 peices. the whole puzzle is the soul.

your current state of mind can only observe 2,000 pieces of the puzzle at a time.

the 2,000 pieces you can observe represent every electrical impulse your conscious brain produces per second.

the other 400 billion pieces represent every electrical impulse your subconscious brain produces per second.

oh, but wait!

of the 2,000 pieces of the puzzle you think you are seeing, your visual perception as the conscious mind interprets it comes from signals generated in the subconscious mind! Why? Because that is where all sensory input first gets sent to, the subconscious mind.

so how many of those 2,000 pieces are you actually seeing as they are without the "opinion" of the subconsious mind interfering with the quality of the picture?






[edit on 20-11-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]

Thank you for your wisdom and intellect.

I read earlier on in this thread that some people are looking forward to 'nothing', the end. Well, for those who dont know my spiritual journey, I experienced death recently, and last night I experienced nothingness. Believe me... re evaluate what you think because nothingness is frightening.

Nothingness is a void where no light, energy exists. There is nothing to see, nothing to feel except your mind that is searching for comprehension of what and where you are at. My sister is blind and I ask her 'what do you see?'. She says 'nothing...nothing...' What is nothing? All I know is that in that 'nothing', you, your mind doesnt end

I asked the Holy Spirit why I experienced it, no answer as yet....but when I read the desire for nothing on here, it did concern me. Perhaps the only reason is to share this with you because I know that I am not going to experience it again.

love & light