The Soul does not exist (note to Mods at beginning)

I feel the soul is a simple phenomina where as it arises through simple princibles. But it's implications are profound. I think the concept of a soul as understood by the general population is narrow, and limited in scope. Lots of things develope a soul. Not just people. Any system that is sufficiently along in the process I described in my previous post will develope a 'soul.'

I even feel that societies, cultures and great masses of conciousness, will develope enough to create a collective unconcious (like Carl Jung's theories), with meme's being passed ubiquitosly, a manifestation of this 'net effect' I described earlier. THe individuel conciousness of society act as individuel neurons in a system, thus replicating the same phenomina that happens in each indivduel on a greater scale.

So we are just begining to understand the simple but complex princibles that develope conciousness, self-awareness, and a 'soul'

Again I ask what happens when a machine technically develops a soul? We as a speciecies are just begining to think beyond the limitations of our past ideologies and through this unbiased perspective many great truthes are becoming evident as our understanding of the universe exponetiates greatly in this time of awakening for our species. It's scary when we realize everything is bigger than ourselves and our current beliefs. But the enlightentment will be worth it.

i can't find any evidence proving souls don't exist.

Slickinfinity,

You called it right there. Humans do put too much importance on ourselves, and it does indeed distort reality. Without changing this thought pattern we will never see the truth, for it will always be warped through the lense we view it through. We need to loose our super ego and ego, and think only with our id to see the truth. Makes sense to me and it's also one of the central ideologies of buddhism. Observe through unjudging eyes, eyes of a child, etc...that whole concept but not through our arrogance.

Originally posted by Slickinfinity
I also assume people who have near death experiences are telling the truth but thats only because they precieve it as such but infact the brain as complex as it is actualy has a mechanism that creates the experience fooling the person to think they were actualy in another realm. I know its horrible but I am in the camp that thinks death is it and unless you use science to override your mortality you are eventualy going to cease to exist in the universal constant at which your preception ended at.

You bring up a point concerning Near-deathers that I raised earlier, and hopefully clarified as to not offend anyone.
As you mention the brain is complex, the very fact that we "see" the external world through our brain which is encased in darkness, poses the idea that it could project images which would seem as if it were external. (the old question is anything even out there...well there is, as we are getting signals which go to the brain...) Look at dreaming, thats a good example, as its the brain projecting images.

So, in affect, I kind of lean to the fact that people who have died and come back, perhaps had something with the brain going on. (they were not brain dead, I suppose, which is kind of where I was coming from.)Is there anyone who was dead...all the way. Brain dead, etc. The answer is probably no, as the body starts to change immediately after the brain dies. I saw my father-in-law after he died. There was a point, that I think he went through that most near-deathers go through. The point where the body looks normal and all has stopped, but the brain...which is projecting images. But once the brain is dead, color change, etc. happens (from my own experience, again, i was living in the same house with him when he passed away...) So no one has come back from being brain dead.

Also you mention science...I totally agree that it has a solution.
Like the movies starwars, harry potter, all of them where the evil lord uses some magic to keep alive. Its all symbolic of something thats possible, and points to some greater truth.
i.e. through science, etc. you can extend life, and like the 'evil' characters, its those who rule the world and have the money that will be able to do this. Its not to anyones benefit to have us continue to multiply like rabbits, be opinionated, and live forever. Not good for the type of society earth is built up on...anyway

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by reaganero
i can't find any evidence proving souls don't exist.

True, there is not solid evidence, per say, for or against.
If anything, at least from how I have argued the point of view, it would seem that there is more to prove that we dont have souls, or if we do, it is indeed something completely different then what we have thought of as a soul. So much so, that it would make this existence look unreal all the way.
Bassplyr, perhaps, has hit on it and explained it in a better way then I have been able to thus far.
(as it concerns a potential scientific explanation, and the actual definition of the proposed soul.)

But this is all good, perhaps the answer will form itself.

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
Again I ask what happens when a machine technically develops a soul?

This is an interesting statement, that can be easy for misinterpretation.
Infact, I might be looking at it from a different perspective then what you intended.

But, none-the-less, its interesting because of the redefinition of the soul.

For lack of better terms, lets say the soul is a neuro-network.
We have the "illusion" of choice. But is it really choice?
Is it not because of data input "a" and data input "b" that we had at conception that we begin to forumlate our thoughts and opinions. Or maybe to put it in other words, hopefully clearer, did we ever develop an opinion or thought without first having had some "input" into our "data system" the brain?

So then the question would arise, when would robots have a soul, or when would they feel that they were the same as humans, fearing death, believing in an afterlife?
As science moves on, and artificial intelligence grows to where it can make infinite amount of choices (really still only choice "a" and choice "b" but in different configurations to give it the feel of having a choice)...then where is the line drawn? I see terminator happening. Or the matrix, machines take over.

Peace

Dalen

Thread title:

The Soul does not exist (note to Mods at beginning)

Originally posted by dAlen
Now, I cannot say 100% proof postivie that there isnt, or at least for some people that there is or is not a soul.

So, which is it?

Originally posted by dAlen
I think the whole soul thing is a conspiracy.

You might be on to something, but someone beat you to it.





[edit on 2006/11/17 by GradyPhilpott]

Considering that there are some perfectly good corpses that are not walking around right now, i would assume (perhaps illogically) that they are lacking a soul, therefore aren't alive

I envision neither terminator nor matrix type scenerios, but rather a peacefull co-existance with the mechanical intelligence.

Once the line of conciousness and that of a soul is blurred. I think the next evolution will be the adaptation of fully mechanical parts of the brain or body that only serve to reconture and expand our conciousness. The people won't mind that half their brain is mechanical in fact they will seek it, for there will be no real difference even to the person about their soul, only a hightened awareness that could come from the potential synergy of mixed biological and human part within one organism. We will look beyond or current humanity and seek to grow.

Where will these lead the evolution of humans? Don't know but it will take us to a place where we will shudder at the thought of how narrow our conciousness and lives were like before. Just like we shudder to think of how much different and simple the ideologies of millennia past were and how inherently narrow a spectum of life they were actually experiencing.

To dispel myths here: there is lots of proof that souls exist just like the ET and UFO world but you can choose to believe or not.

One difference being the soul is something you have and can access yourself while ET and its UFO's may or may not come your way anytime soon.

I believe in reincarnation myself so the idea of living once is considered 'Luciferic' to me and not acceptable. The soul is perfected while living trials and tribulations whilst in the flesh.

There has never been an intelligent, reasoned nor provable argument by science as to how any living animal can function as just a group collection of cells with a brain and nervous system. Look for yourself.

They don't fully understand how the brain works nor do they understand what really animates humans and makes them living entities. Maybe it is the soul I posit?

Well that takes the bop out of the she bop da do rah. How's about the 21 grams everyone loses at the moment of death.

What about all those 'dead' people and strange realms?
Of course that could just be wishful thinking.

Nah, they're not dead.
People don't die.

[edit on 17-11-2006 by clearwater]

Originally posted by LazarusTheLong
Considering that there are some perfectly good corpses that are not walking around right now, i would assume (perhaps illogically) that they are lacking a soul, therefore aren't alive

i thought a soul was something that lives in the body and at the death it parts it leaving the body to dust.

21 grams is the wight of the human heart not the mass observed leaving once a person dies. Again it's loosing mass maybe due to it being converted into other more pedestrian forms of energy. Also do they measure the weight of the human body as they are physically dying in real time or just compare before and after weights? Becuase there are a lot of things besides a soul that can acount for the small almost negligable weight loss of the carcas. Also have they observed this phenomina in other animals too or again are we humans the most special thing in the whoooole wiiiiiide universe that gets a soul. man do we think in the box and egocentricly.

What about the instances of people undergoing hyponosis and recalling past lives they have lived?

Self generated or perhaps guided imagery. I also think all the stuff people see when they have near death experiences are just what the brain does when it's shutting down. A dream or hullucination if you will. I think the soul is a simple concept, and not confined to human beings, but to a great majority of systems when sufficiently complex.

I think societies develope a soul, so do civilizations to any community of conciousness. The universe it's self maybe has a collective unconciouse that manifests a soul...shhhhhh...don't tell anyone the simple but real secret behind the phenomina of God. They haven't figured it out yet. Shhhhh....

Originally posted by BASSPLYR
21 grams is the wight of the human heart not the mass observed leaving once a person dies. Again it's loosing mass maybe due to it being converted into other more pedestrian forms of energy. Also do they measure the weight of the human body as they are physically dying in real time or just compare before and after weights?

Sorry.. but they weighed the entire body before and after and this has been proven again and again.

What happened did the heart fly out of their chests or something? The whole body was undisturbed yet its mass decreased upon cessation of life.

Just adding how I feel deep down about all this. I think that my soul will go on, but I won't know anything about it. The lights will go out, my physical brain will turn to dust as they say, and the soul will move on. In essence, I belong to my soul, not the other way around.

Perhaps there is a fundamental flaw with your perspective... or perhaps this is just another perspective....

So much talk from many about "having/not having a soul". I know you don't have a soul. Nope. No way. But rather you ARE A SOUL WHO HAS A BODY!!!

Novel idea eh? See, if you HAVE something then you are essentially not that thing. In this case a soul. We dont own souls.. we ARE souls. And what we have is a physical manifestation, a vehicle in which we use to EXPERIENCE this "3-D reality". Kinda like exploring space. A place where the rules are a bit different then down here on earth. We as humans need a special vehicle to get to and explore/experience space. Same with the depths of our oceans; again special vehicle.

With that said, I make no mention of religion and the word "soul" is interchangeable... call it whatever you want. We shouldnt get hung up on the details. Its the fact we're asking questions and seeking truth.. OUR OWN truths that matter.

And if you want proof... you mean it's not obvious to you?

Peace

I can understand what the author of the thread is trying to say. does it not seems strange that we all experience life as our own little conciousness? How in our own minds we are the center of everything. Not saying each of us is egotistical , but our very aspect on life is centered around "US" I've been thinking of possibilities of how it is we come to be. While animals we really don't have very much instinct except the basic primal ones. After that everything else is extra, more then what as a being we want or need. You could equate our essence like an engine. Which bring up a very good question. Does everything alive have an essence? Though some things are unable to defend themselves from attack (i.e. trees, plants) they do experience a sort of suffering. Thus if a plant experiences sever trama they die. Though currently impossible to prove now, everything alive has something driving it. how is it we evolved from the sludge and continue to evolve now? For what purpose would we need to change or continually change? Something has to be driving it weither subconciously or instinctively. Why else would there have to be change? what else would drive us or any species to change its habit or habitat. By adding art, creating devices to talk long distances. These were never needed before, so why are they now? we are expanding into new territory driven by something. So does this mean we will end up fat blobs of flesh , due to making everything easy? Will the mind develope and the body wither as the mind takes on a more important role. Our bodies are just instruments of our mind.

Next time you see an animal watch it and ask the question. does it see its world centered around itself as well?

-Aza

ha! I just dont get what your on about. Your denying your own life force.
We have one life, tho it unknown. Many hosts but our soul is the same soul from the start. I have seen my soul leave my body.

When my soul (me) was out of the host, I stood in this nothingness and looked around. I could see things and communicate. OBE or NDE...whatever it is. I dont care. But the one thing I am certain of is that I was my soul. My mind, my voice was still with me.
My personality was with me and yet I was light. And my body was empty.

I dont think this comes down to religion either. Have you seen 21 grams? Ever read any books from Kubler Ross? Talk to a Nurse, they see and experience much daily and yet, they dont say an awful lot about it. What about the discipline of yoga? Mantras to work the soul, become conscious of it.

where's the conspiracy?
My experience is an illusion? bah!
The only delusion that exists is the fact that we are all dead, in a coma and we dont understand the immortality of our soul. We think we are alive....
How much of our brain do we use? What is the rest of our brain for? That is our coma, each host, we are in a coma. And some are fortunate to wake up from it and see. When you sleep, where does your soul go? Do you think you just sleep?