The Soul does not exist (note to Mods at beginning)

This post is being put in the general discussion forum for this reason.

I want responces from members across the various forums:
- responce from the religious people...to prove beyond just ideas their belief in a soul
- responce from the paranormal people ...who seem to believe the soul exist and works in mysterious ways
- responce from the medical conspiracy group...where is this soul located at guys?
- responce from the science guys, etc.

Here is my little rant: (Intro)

I grew up in religion...worked in religious organizations...I know Judaism & Christianity inside out.
One day, or rather on my path of spritual enlightment, I begin to open up and stop accepting things dished out to me by those who claimed authority.

In religion, a lot is dished out, and there are different factions in Judaism and Christianity because people make things up that don't even have any support in the Bible.

Outside of religion we have science, or those on the fringe, making claims without proof...more on this later.

Rant: (the questions, etc.)

- Solomon even said that we go back and remain in the dust and that is it, final, period...nothing more. He couldnt make it clearer. (This is canonized, for those of you who care about such things. )

- those who say science proves it...here is what I say.
The soul is equated to immortality. Show me one person who rose from the dead, or did not die.
I dont know anyone, nor do you. The only thing is things passed down. Sorry, one man doesnt do it for me, and near-death aint good enough. The guy/gal needs to be still living and over 1k years, or dead in the ground or cremated, and come back in solid form, or in a way that is undeniable by anyone. No table tipping, etc.

I think the whole soul thing is a conspiracy. Think about it, what a downer if you think all there is for you is the life you live now. (though why should it be, even Solomon said enjoy now, its all you have.)
But the question is why...why is it so engrained...perhaps for someones purpose.
I dont doubt that eternal life is possible, but Judaism even teaches that some people dont have souls (yes the rabbi will say all people have nefesh, etc.), and Christianity teaches it to...but they would have to read the Bible for themselves like its the first time...finding all the inconsistencies, allowing them to be, and take the information for what its worth...and then it will be like a gold mine.

So anyone have solid proof. I dont expect any responce to this, because if there were proof of a soul, where everyone could believe it, then there would not be this discussion.

Now, I cannot say 100% proof postivie that there isnt, or at least for some people that there is or is not a soul. There may be...but where is the proof...whats going on?

Maybe the whole soul concept is really not the issue, or rather its extremly miss understood.
It could be that its bigger than what we can fathom. Such as we are in a video game so to speak (words pointing beyond themselves) and someone is playing unlimited versions of a game called "me". The person we know is not us at all...the thing we are unaware of is. But is this a soul.

I have another thread about an experience I had, which may be of interest. Again, the soul may not be as simple as just another "me", as most people look at it. Even in Judaism there are 5 levels of the soul.

my story

All we have are experiences, thats nice for speculation, near-deaths, the experience I had above...but isnt time we have proof...something solid to put our fingers around? But maybe thats the issue...nothing is solid, its all illusion.

Peace

dAlen

[edit on 17-11-2006 by dAlen]

The soul is equated to immortality. Show me one person who rose from the dead, or did not die.

dAlen,

With all due respect I think that statement is missing the point....we all die...the point is after we die our soul or consciousness continues on without a physical body in another non physical demension.

Solomon's comment was dealing with the physical body....and who would not argue that it turns to dust...he however does not mention consciousness and that is what's immortal.

Our physical existance here on this earth is an illusion created by our consciousness.

Consciousness is energy that can never be destroyed.....only the illusion is temporary.

"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.Albert Einstein"

“All matter originates and exists only by virtue of a force... We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious and intelligent Mind. This Mind is the matrix of all matter.Max Planck”

Originally posted by etshrtslr

we all die...the point is after we die our soul or consciousness continues on without a physical body in another non physical demension.

Our physical existance here on this earth is an illusion created by our consciousness.

Consciousness is energy that can never be destroyed.....only the illusion is temporary.

- If noone comes back, there is no guarantee.
If we cant prove it with science and point with to the soul in this life, and if we "wait" till we die...by then its to late, we either have one or didnt.

- If the soul is eternal, it seems that it could live in this existence, if not eternally, but more than the limit that seems to be genetically encoded in us, 120 years. (70 for most.)

Thanks for your reply, again, Im only trying to say, that as of now, Im not sure, but I find it interesting the lack of proof that goes beyond what I would call one user experiences and speculation. Or rather, its not solid enough for me personally to believe in.

But I am one person, and that simply is where I am at now. I do enjoy reading peoples responces, however, as until I have solid proof, at least I have something to ponder and speculate on, which may lead to concrete proof...oneday.

Peace

Dalen

Maybe the whole soul concept is really not the issue, or rather its extremly miss understood.

You hit the nail on the head - your gripe is about religion.....do you think you have a soul?

You are able to have a soul and believe in 'God' without subscribing to someone elses faith. You will just have your own faith, worshipping the exact same God that none of us has any proof about but somehow we are all aware of. It doesn't matter.

[edit on 17/11/06 by Strodyn]

Science answer : 'some thing is lost at the point of death, is it the soul?'

www.ghostweb.com...

read this. Then, if you could please be so good as to tell me just what was lost at the point of death to make such a recordable loss?

I say, at death the soul leaps free to return home to the kingdom of Heaven.

Originally posted by Strodyn

Maybe the whole soul concept is really not the issue, or rather its extremly miss understood.

You hit the nail on the head - your gripe is about religion.....do you think you have a soul?

I honestly dont know what I have beyond this physical body.
Religion/spiritualism has provided some "hope" beyond this life, but that seems to be about it.

I think immortality is possible, through science, but I dont think its a given.
Now our particles rot and feed worms, in a way we dont die as our particles exist, but i wouldnt call that reincarnation in the form taught in Judaism (yes Judaism) and Hinduism.

A lot of material really seems to be pointing to truths beyond itself, but until it is understood it remains somewhat untouchable. The concept of soul, eternal life, etc. can be pin pointed by science, but its really nothing to do with the stories themselves from the religious text.

Its like some advanced race would come down and tell someone to build an ark, they think its a device that is divine, the advanced race likes their ignorance, as its really technology for a nuclear war head, and they can play "gods". (just an example.)
Point being, is I think we are getting to caught up in the wrong idea of a soul...we dont know the science of it all...its beyond the soul...if there is anything, its that we dont exist, or definatley not how we think.

I cant put it in words, cause Im not even sure. But its interesting to speculate...until I have my own team of scientist to figure it out for me.

Until then...

Peace

Dalen

[edit on 17-11-2006 by dAlen]

If noone comes back, there is no guarantee.

dAlen,

I would beg to differ...people have come back life after death. Read the near death and clinical death experiences from around the world. There are numerous documented cases of people being declared clinicaly dead that come back to life.
www.nderf.org...

If we cant prove it with science and point with to the soul in this life, and if we "wait" till we die...by then its to late, we either have one or didnt.

If you read the links I provided in the other thread there is years of documented scientific evidence for the existance of a soul. The soul is just energy that contains consciousness.

Originally posted by D4rk Kn1ght
Science answer : 'some thing is lost at the point of death, is it the soul?'

www.ghostweb.com...

read this. Then, if you could please be so good as to tell me just what was lost at the point of death to make such a recordable loss?

I say, at death the soul leaps free to return home to the kingdom of Heaven.

Sorry, but Im looking for information from Journals of Nature, Medicine, JAMA, etc.
Actual periodicals that have a standing in the field of science & medicine.
If its there, I would like to read it, but I bet they are still scratching their heads...

Thanks for the link

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by etshrtslr
I would beg to differ...people have come back life after death. Read the near death and clinical death experiences from around the world. There are numerous documented cases of people being declared clinicaly dead that come back to life.

If you read the links I provided in the other thread there is years of documented scientific evidence for the existance of a soul. The soul is just energy that contains consciousness.

- Thanks for your patience with me etshrtslr
However call me the extreme Doubting Thomas.
Put the dead bodies in the ground for 3 days, dig them back up then lets see if they come back to life.

For me there are to many wild imaginations out there, and to many people with agendas...even if they are innocent agendas...wanting to find proof. Again, this is just for me, at the present moment, what I would require as proof. Just where I am at.

As for your links, I do want to take a look at what you had posted on the other forum. Again, I am definately interested in peoples experiences...but in reading them (near death), I have seen some that definitely led to inconsistencies, and even religious agendas. Who knows.

Peace

Dalen

The concept of a soul is like the concept of god, among a great many other things. We have no viable apparatus by which to prove it exists/is. So those who want to believe in it do because it benefits their concept of self and reality.

Of course it also depends on how you define soul. Someone stated in a prior post that energy is transfered upon death, but that does not indicate in any way that this 'energy' is our unbound consciousness. If I burn a tree I transfer a large part of that energy into heat and light, but ultimately it has little to no resenblance to any characteristics of it's former self.

It would be nice to believe that who we are (our personality) does not die with the body, but it seems more like a comforting thought in the face of the unknown then a logical conclusion based on reason.

The fact of the matter is that until this concept of 'soul' is proven though a testible manner people will argue there sides on how THEY see it and not on any proven facts. Simply because a phenomenon occurs does not mean we experience it as it occurs without the distortion of our interpretations.

No one here will be able to give you the answers, as any answer they give will be a religious one.

You can only feel what is inside you. Religion in my eyes is a correct way of living, that leads when followed to appeasement, and therefore closer contact with 'God'.

I doubt very much that there is the conciousness that we recognise after death, but I believe 100% in a soul, mainly due to a weird requested spiritual experience.

God to me is my purpose....not who I am, not what I was or will be, but every single thing about me, good and bad. He is the reason for my existence.

I have no idea why I exist, but I feel my soul....and I have no way of expressing it. It is just a fundamental part of me. If I am concious as I am after death, I would be surprised, but I am certain the energy inside me that exists will be. And I am happy with that.

I have taken a long long road to reach that contentment, and fyi it was not through religion, and I am not really religious now, but I do respect each and every one of them. I imagine though that is the point of the religion, to help people through the very questions you are asking.

Of course you might be completely correct.....and at the point of death for me it will not matter.

I have no idea how to help you tbh, I just wanted to express my thoughts, I hope you find what you are after.

Just a side note.

As I sit here, it seems wierd to me.
Who is the "me" typing this message?
Why am I even here? What is this existence about.
All the things we do are so meaningless (as Solomon clearly stated), yet at the same time we can enjoy the meaninglessness.

But if I can figure out why we are even here (beyond the fact that we reproduce), that may lead to the answer of the soul. But that goes down the route of religion, of which I know they point beyond themself...but its like looking through a glass dimly...I only hope to see before its to late.

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by Jonna
It would be nice to believe that who we are (our personality) does not die with the body, but it seems more like a comforting thought in the face of the unknown then a logical conclusion based on reason.

This is kind of where I am coming from.
Is it possible that its only a comforting thought? Anyway, as mentioned before, there are no concrete answers...so suppose best to leave it be at that.

Peace

Dalen

Thanks for your patience with me etshrtslr

dAlen,

I hope you know I enjoy your threads

I understand noone is going to convince you one way or the other.....we all must find our own truths. All I ask is you study the links I provided with an open mind and if your still not convinced then so be it. We will have plenty more to discuss on alot of other topics.

If you don't believe scripture, as I dont, then forget it...look towards yourself and your own real true feelings.....and accept them.

There is no point beating yourself up because you are not following someone elses interpretation of something you are able to interpret yourself.

Originally posted by Strodyn
I have no idea why I exist, but I feel my soul....and I have no way of expressing it. It is just a fundamental part of me.

Well in Judaism (and in Christianity, though I highly doubt the majority knows it says this), the concept exist of a "soul-less" person. Perhaps Im a souless person.
(no wonder religion doesnt pull that out of the Bible to talk about, no one wants to go around saying they could possibly be soul-less...they are having a time just trying to believe in a soul.)

I think thats cool if you feel you have a soul.
Maybe I have one too...I did have that one experience I posted as a link in the top of the threa.
Who knows.
Jesus in Christianity seemed to imply the pinochio syndrom of becoming a "Real boy"
(for those that are Christians out there that dont have a clue of what Im talking about read Genesis and then all the parables, though its only mentioned in one, as well as the explanation to the parable, and you understand the idea that some people are "sons of satan". Dont let it freak you out. Have an open mind.

Peace

Dalen

Originally posted by dAlen
Is it possible that its only a comforting thought?

Well, why not? It was once comforting to think that god made everything for man and that the earth was the center of the universe because of man's importance. At the time this 'perceived truth' was accepted on faith and ego because man could not test such a theory yet. Is the concept of a soul really all that different?

[edit on 17-11-2006 by Jonna]

Originally posted by Strodyn
If you don't believe scripture, as I dont, then forget it...look towards yourself and your own real true feelings.....and accept them.

There is no point beating yourself up because you are not following someone elses interpretation of something you are able to interpret yourself.

I suppose you could say that I want an answer, as I fear death...
- death is the unknown.
- not existing seems so "unnatural" and the fact that I might be unaware of "myself" can be a bit wierd.
- and I dont want reincarnation, as I want to remember what my mistakes were...if Im recycled I dont remember anything. (I know my soul does, but seriously, it doesnt seem that anything is remembered.) ;-)
- as far as eternal punishment, that does not exist in Judaism, nor in orthodox Christianity (the article the river of fire by an orthodox priest is quite revealing, even Catholocism has purgatory)

It is my goal to understand what I can in this life.
Dalen, as mentioned elsewhere, has the coat of arms meaning of "while I have breath I have hope) I have adopted this as my slogan as it pretty much fits what I believe or where I am.

Thanks for the responce to all who have posted.

Peace to all

Dalen

I don't think there is a soul at all. I think it's more of an illusion.

What I think happens regarding conciousness is this. Nuerons in small organisms are basically responsable for sensing the immediate environment and then reacting to it to preserve it's self for basic survival.

I feel that initially these neurons can act out their functions independantly of each other, for they aren't yet competing for resources in the organism. As things progress and become more complex the nuerons have to start intercommunicating on a basic level to fight for priority of resources within the organism.

I think there is a net effect of all these over lapping nuerons fighting for what they need, and that this inturn appears to be conciousness, eventhough it is more like a complex computerlike algorithm. The net effect of all these things are what we precieve as conciousness and we dub it a soul. I think in actuallity our personalities, soul, subconcious (nuerons arguing), and conciousness (net effect of nuerons) are really just a simple phenomina although really complex in details that is more akin to a 'ghost in the machine' concept. I feel that this phenomina will arise when anyhting gets this complex. What happens to machines when their algorythems for self preservation,maintenance, etc... develope to a point where they create a net effect that manifests as a self aware conciousness. We would have to admit that we have invented intelligent life, especially if it can reproduce it's self in any manner, and we would have to argue that the machine would have a soul, and desires.

What machines don't get to have souls? Only biological things can have souls? Wheres it say that? What say the people about my CrAaaazY theory.

Originally posted by dAlen
Well in Judaism (and in Christianity, though I highly doubt the majority knows it says this), the concept exist of a "soul-less" person. Perhaps Im a souless person.
(no wonder religion doesnt pull that out of the Bible to talk about, no one wants to go around saying they could possibly be soul-less...they are having a time just trying to believe in a soul.)

There are traps in most religions to try to keep people from straying.
If you were soul-less then you would not be here questioning the very fundamentals of existence that neither a scientist, rabbi, priest, sheikh or any other religious figure can conclusively answer.