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JROTC Programs banned in SF

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posted on Nov, 15 2006 @ 06:20 PM
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Last night the San Francisco Board of Education decided to ban the Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps from all schools within their district.



High schools across the city soon will no longer have Junior Reserve Officers' Training Corps programs, after officials decided to eliminate them because of the Pentagon's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy regarding gay service members.

The Board of Education voted 4-2 late Tuesday to phase out the JROTC from schools over the next two years, despite protest from hundreds of students who rallied outside the meeting.

The resolution passed says the military's ban on openly gay soldiers violates the school district's equal rights policy for gays. The school district and the military currently share the $1.6 million annual cost of the program.

"One of the big components (of JROTC) is military branding, military thinking and military recruitment, and that has to stop," board member Dan Kelly said during the meeting.

About 1,600 San Francisco students participate in JROTC at seven high schools across the district.

Cadets and instructors who spoke at the meeting and rallied outside argued that the program teaches leadership, organizational skills, personal responsibility and other important values.

"This is where the kids feel safe, the one place they feel safe," said Robert Powell, a JROTC instructor and retired Army lieutenant colonel. "You're going to take that away from them?"

Mayor Gavin Newsom called severing ties with the JROTC "a bad idea" that penalized students without having any practical effect on the Pentagon's policy on gays in the military.

"If people want to participate in it and their families want them to participate, I think they have a right to participate without putting them in the political peril of being in this ideological debate," he said.

Lt. Cmdr. Joe Carpenter, a Pentagon spokesman, has said he didn't know of any school district having barred JROTC from its campuses.

Newsom said he thought the timing of the move was bad given Republican efforts to prevent Democrats from taking control of Congress by saying the party would introduce "San Francisco values" to the nation's capital.


KTVU - SF Schools to Phase out JROTC

To me this is another example of a group of people deciding that their beliefs should be forced on everyone else. It is a parent/child decision on whether they want to join and continue in the JROTC program. If I as a parent had a problem with the program, I can bar my child from joining ofr better yet maybe have an open and honest discussion with my child on my particular views on the matter. It's sad that 1600 student members of the JROTC are caught in the middle because the board wants to send a political "message" to the Pentagon.

I think the mayor summed it up best when he said this was penalizing students without having any effect on the Pentagon policy they were taking a stand against.




posted on Nov, 15 2006 @ 06:58 PM
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Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
Cadets and instructors who spoke at the meeting and rallied outside argued that the program teaches leadership, organizational skills, personal responsibility and other important values.


This is what it all boils down to, just like the Boy Scouts.

Now if there was a program to teach kids how to have sex in public restrooms, that'd be just fine.

How about this idea?

No more federal funding for SF schools.






[edit on 2006/11/15 by GradyPhilpott]



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 03:28 PM
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This is a terrible embarrassment, and this board ought to be ashamed of themselves.

And it is stupid and short-sighted. If changing the military's views on homosexuality is your goal, they WHY would you try to hinder entry and indoctrination to the military to those residents of your own city, members of your own families, who could best position themselves in the future to make those changes?

The price of freedom is a burden that should be shared equally. Want your freedom for free? Fine. No soup for you! Say bu-bye to federal funding, as Grady has suggested.

A classic case of cutting of your nose to spite your face. I mean, who is feeling the effects of this dumb decision? The Pentagon? No, it's the kids of SF. So dumb....but so typical of the moonbat society.



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 03:36 PM
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Not surprisingly, I support this ban. It's a matter of making a statement that the school board will not support a program that doesn't treat all people equally. The military, with their "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy discriminates against a segment of society. After all, it's ok for a man to talk about his girlfriend if he's in the service. It's ok for a straight man to "flaunt" his heterosexuality. But not so for gay people.



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 03:48 PM
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Yep, this is the kind of freedom of choice that you can expect in an area ruled by liberal extremists.

You are free to choose whatever you want so long as I agree with it and it agrees with my values. If you want something outside of that, well, too bad - you are an ignorant fool who doesn't really know what he wants.



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's a matter of making a statement that the school board will not support a program that doesn't treat all people equally.

The JROTC does not have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, in fact, there are many students that are openly gay. Also, the instructors are retired, not active duty.

The program does treat all people equally. Better to have students doing JROTC after school activites 3 times a week instead of the other alternitives that kids are doing these days.




The military, with their "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy discriminates against a segment of society.

Again, that's the military, not JROTC.


After all, it's ok for a man to talk about his girlfriend if he's in the service. It's ok for a straight man to "flaunt" his heterosexuality. But not so for gay people.

JROTC is not the "service".....it's a friggin high school class and students are not held back from talking about their sexual preference. Why do you think they are?

The students have one code to follow...and that's whatever code comes down from the school board. There is no UCMJ or military justice going on for gays in JROTC....there's not even a policy that covers anything like that, it was'nt an issue until the SF school board made it one.

They should think of the student's best interest and well being, that's not happening now.

From the OP's source:

Mayor Gavin Newsom called severing ties with the JROTC "a bad idea" that penalized students without having any practical effect on the Pentagon's policy on gays in the military.



[edit on 16/11/2006 by SportyMB]



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by SportyMB
The JROTC does not have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy, in fact, there are many students that are openly gay. Also, the instructors are retired, not active duty.


That doesn't extricate them from the Military.

JROTC



The Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps (JROTC) is a program put forth by the United States Armed Forces in high schools across the nation that train high school students in Leadership and Military Sciences.


JROTC Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps



JROTC units receive certain financial support from the Armed Forces, including reimbursement for instructor salaries.
...
The instructor continues to receive their normal retired pay, but in addition, the school normally agrees to pay the difference between the instructor's retired pay and what the instructor would receive if they were on active duty. The service concerned then reimburses the school for approximately one-half of the amount paid by the school to the instructor.
...
Successful completion of the program (usually 2-4 years of classes) can lead to advanced rank upon enlistment in the Armed Forces.




From the OP's source:

Mayor Gavin Newsom called severing ties with the JROTC "a bad idea" that penalized students without having any practical effect on the Pentagon's policy on gays in the military.



Somebody has to make some noise if the message is going to get to the Pentagon. The government can still have this "mini-Military" program. Just not in the schools who don't want it there.

Sometimes we choose not to support something because of the bigger picture. For example, I don't buy from Amazon.com because they send jobs overseas. They're never going to know any difference, but I have to do my part.

Although I agree there are worse things for kids to be doing, I also think there are better.


[edit on 16-11-2006 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 05:05 PM
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BH - plesae help me understand why it is okay to take away a choice for these kids? I don't understand that - it's not like it was a mandatory class. Only the kids that wanted to be in it were.

How about we get rid of all sports - kids with disabilities can't compete. Let's get rid of student government, too, because most kids don't win and a loss is bad for their self esteem. Oh, and let's get rid of English as a curriculum too, because some people don't want to speak it. Oh, and math? Right out, numbers just don't make sense for some poor kids.



posted on Nov, 16 2006 @ 06:01 PM
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Taking it to the extreme, if the KKK sponsored a program at the school, even if it was a really great program that kept kids off the street, I would support the ban because the sponsoring organization practiced discrimination.

Like it or not, the Military practices discrimination.

Remember, that's an extreme example.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 09:42 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Like it or not, the Military practices discrimination.


Yes, they do.

They discriminate against old people.
They discriminate against fat people.
They discriminate against unhealthy people.
They discriminate against foreigners.
They discriminate against criminals.
They discriminate against those who are mentally challenged or unstable.
They discriminate against the physiclaly handicapped.
They discriminate against non-conformists and anarchists.
They discriminate against drug users.
They discriminate against alcoholics.
And many more.....

You cry for the gays, but why not these others?

They discriminate for good reason, based upon the nature of the tasks they must perform on a daily basis, and the incredible amount of danger and responsibility that these tasks require. The US military has over 200 years of experience in figuring out what is best for them as far as who they want and don't want goes. As the times change, those requirements also change. But I will alsway defer to the military to make those judgements. It cracks me up that the people who whine the loudest about gays in the military are always the people least likely to pick up a weapon and stand a watch. This San Francisco school board epitomizes this.

Gimme a break with the whole gay rights crap. Its just a screen for their true anti-military feelings, and the gay issues is a convenient conduit for their ire.



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 10:00 AM
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If going into JROTC is "voluntary", what's the problem?

As Marid Audran said : Why is it okay to take away one of the choices the kids have?

Grady: I'm with you, no more federal funds for SF schools!



posted on Nov, 17 2006 @ 10:46 AM
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Originally posted by Pyros
The US military has over 200 years of experience in figuring out what is best for them as far as who they want and don't want goes.


They let gays in. They're not too good to let them fight as long as they keep quiet about who they are. It's not about keeping gays out.



It cracks me up that the people who whine the loudest about gays in the military are always the people least likely to pick up a weapon and stand a watch. This San Francisco school board epitomizes this.


You're totally assuming that. And if you think that about me, you're also wrong. Nobody is whining about gays in the military, they're whining about the military's discriminitory policies.



Its just a screen for their true anti-military feelings, and the gay issues is a convenient conduit for their ire.


Again, not in my case. I have issues with the military (especially today) and I have no compunction about sharing that. I have anti-military feelings. And I also support equal rights under the law for all American citizens. One is not a screen or conduit for the other.



posted on Dec, 11 2006 @ 02:02 AM
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I must say, this is a damn shame. I was in JROTC in high school, Im a liberal, and it had no adverse affect on me. The majority of my JROTC squadron did not go on to enlist, no one was chasitzed for being fat, or gay, or stupid or anything. The instructors treated everyone with the upmost respect, and taught you a good deal about life and being a better citizen. It also gave some of the kids something to do other than do drugs after school. Its sad that a school system would ban JROTC just because of the military's stance on gays.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 01:34 PM
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The military by its very nature discriminates against a lot of things. If you're overweight, color blind, flat footed, etc.... you will be discriminated against It's not a social laboratory. It's sole purpose is to win wars and protect its citizenry. There are things that affect morale and unit cohesion, and when one is forced into situations where there is no privacy, you don't need to be worrying about being looked at in sexual way. If open homosexuality is allowed, it will hurt unit morale, and good order and discipline. There are a lot of areas in one's personal life that the military looks into, that wouldn't necessarily matter in any other kind of profession, but if they hurt readiness, then they are going to be frowned upon.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 02:49 PM
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"One of the big components (of JROTC) is military branding, military thinking and military recruitment, and that has to stop," board member Dan Kelly said during the meeting. "

Clear sight!


Can anyone say, indoctrination?

[edit on 12/12/06 by SteveR]



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 02:58 PM
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Of course teaching them Marxist ideology, and America bashing isn't indoctrination right? If it weren't for the military, America wouldn't exist in the first place, and the freedoms to sit here and s#it talk about it, wouldn't exist either. Duty, honor, integrity, leadership, loyalty, selfless service, etc. are certainly laudable virtues, that many on the left could stand to learn about, before bad mouthing an institution that teaches those values.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 03:36 PM
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Its rather unfair to deny it to people interested in the benefits of JROTC. No one is forcing anyone to join JROTC. And since the military is part of the US government, it certainly deserves to be permited.

ON the other hand, the military openyl discriminates against homosexuals. Thats not actually legally permitted.


"One of the big components (of JROTC) is military branding, military thinking and military recruitment, and that has to stop," board member Dan Kelly said during the meeting. "

Thats ridiculous. This guy would be okay with JROTC if it wasn't so 'all about the military'??? Does he know what JROTC is???


blueraja
The military by its very nature discriminates against a lot of things

But those things aren't federally protected against. We permit the police from having fat cops, or the fire department from hiring invalids. Being a homosexual isn't a physical handicap.

are things that affect morale and unit cohesion,

Lets be honest, do you really think that the guys in a unit knowing that someone else is homosexual is going to really make a different when their all being shot at? Doesn't all that training and comradery forge a unit? Is the cohesion really that weak that people can't work past it? I mean, people in the civilian world are able to do it, so why not the military>



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 04:28 PM
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This is outrageous, the military is part of why this country is great and giving high school kids a school class where they can be taught some military bearing along with practical and leadership skills is far better than most any high school classes can offer. JROTC is a great thing for high schools to have, kids who participate in it are advanced to E-3 upon enlistment and it looks good on any college resume. I am suprised the Federal government has not been involved to staighten this mess out. There are thousands of good kids who want the program and a few liberal(there are much more colorful words that fit better here) idiots who got their panties in a wad to make a big mess out of this.

Obviously San Fran is a very liberal town and obviously don't get the big picture. The fact that these people can be so outspoken against the military and not face any consequences shows how great the country because of the military there are so blindly against. I see it as them using the gay issue to ban JROTC when it is really a non-issue and there real issue are these military haters and unfortunatly San Fran is messed up enough to let these fools get what they want.

This is a city that will pay for a person's sex change but won't tolerate a legitimate JROTC program in its high schools. You got be really warped to tell me there is not something wrong with San Fran.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 05:05 PM
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This is completely ridiculous, and wrong. It's wrong to those kids who enjoy being a part of JROTC. It's wrong to the military.

You see, the military is right for keeping gays out.

1) Homosexuals subscribe to a sexual perversion. It may be legal, but I don't want perverts protecting my country.

2) Because the military is mostly males, who are in proximity to each other all the time and have to live together often, we don't need people there who will be attracted to their fellow soldiers. Just think, an attack comes in the night, "Everybody out of the tents with your weapons!" and whoops, Steve and Bobby are having anal on a cot and can't respond quickly like the others.

Now then, all of this is a moot point, for one reason: SF is wrong for banning JROTC. I hope the kids stage a violent protest, and I hope someone gets severely injured. Use those military skills and fight back against the system! When the government does something wrong, you don't just sit around and talk about it, you take action.



posted on Dec, 12 2006 @ 05:10 PM
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1) Homosexuals subscribe to a sexual perversion. It may be legal, but I don't want perverts protecting my country.

If they're willing to give up their lives to defend the country, then they're i]good citizens that we should be proud of.

How can you possibly slam the men and women in our military that put on the uniform, expose their lives, AND, on top of that, know that the military itself thinks they're perverts?

Homosexuality is not a perversion, its a perfectly valid sexual orientation. Homosexuals are not perverts, and I'm proud of anyone that defends the US.




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