Why is terrorism, causing American outrage?

You want me to like your nation, and stop my efforts at showing the world the REAL USA?

I personally dont care what you think of my country, There is almost nothing that could matterless to me.

People are going to criticize you for the rest of your days because of this..

you've totally ruined a country, ruined hundreds of thousands of lives... for what? money!

Wrong - not for money but for the saftey of our citizens. And we have not totally ruined a country. Iraq has a freely elected govt, is building its economy and army back up, and the vast majority of Iraqis outside Baghdad live normal day to day lives. It's only been 3.5 years. I think the final outcome for the entire country is still in question.

IF you don’t like people constantly ridiculing America, then grow some balls, stand up... remove this regime that has hijacked your country for gods sake.

No testicles needed. Our Constitution requires that this administration peacfully leave office in January 2008. And it will just as every one for the last 240 years has. Without tanks in the streets, without guns being fired, and without the military or the Religious leaders taking over as is the standard model in most Islamic Countries.

they sacrificed 3000 of your OWN citizens to get into IRAQ...

BS

Every time someone has a go at me for criticizing America it gives me more resolve, because obviously you guys just don’t understand the hatred your country is CREATING FOR ITSELF in this region.

I do understand the hatred. It that was the impetus for my rather harmless post to you yesterday that has drawn this venomous response.

I haven’t posted on this website for a few weeks now, especially in the American sections..

so stop generalizing and saying i post hatred daily.

You don't post daily but there is a daily flood of anti-US rhetoric in general and unfortunately you were the most recent when I decide to let off some steam.

I got sick of people shouting at me simply because I post my opinion.
so you don’t like it.. big deal.... at least your ABLE to view your opinion, and able to debate this.

Thats right we can, despite all those off shore posters who insist we have become a ghestapo like police state. Try posting the things you and I post about our govts in Cuba or Iran or NK or China and see what happens.

Damn you for telling people to stop expressing their opinions.

I never told you or anyone to stop posting you opinions. I merely expressed my dissatisfaction with it.

I hope you get bent on everything I say because maybe, juts maybe it will sit in your mind and you will dwell on it, you will think over and over again how in 6 years your country went from the most loved, and respected nation... to the country everyone loves to hate...

I dont give a flyin' "F" what you say or think. Nor do I care much what the rest of the says it think of us. The fact is the world needs the US.




[edit on 11/15/2006 by darkbluesky]

Hatred for Bush? what for? what on earth as Bush and America done for me to hate him... well here's some comical parody I find influential.
Hatred for America and its policies and the nations it follows?

Darkblue sky, let me just copy and past your replies as im at work.. ill get back to you in a sec.
From the above it seems to me you should care what people think of your country.
because internatioanl and domestic people clearly, arent happy with what your country is doing.

But if you feel its 'right' and 'good' then hey glad you have your own morals mate.
Would you have enough nerve to look a mother in the face in iraq and tell her her son, father, husband, uncle and auntie all needed to die from an american bomb? simply because america believed they were a threat?

Yep.. fair enough..


[edit on 15-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

Let us stop a moment to think about this likely 80,000,000 murdered since WWII. This is a statistic impossible to grasp. Only twelve countries in the world have a population larger than this number of killed. It is as though the total Philippine population of 79,000,000 were murdered; or that all the people living in the Czech Republic, Hungary, Belgium, Portugal, Sweden, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Finland, and Norway were wiped out together--not in some natural catastrophe that kills quickly, but for most of the victims a painful and slow death at the hands of a government. To look at this toll another way, it is over five times the number of combat deaths for all the nations that fought in WWII alone. Add those killed in the Korean and Vietnam Wars, the two most deadly major wars since WWII, and the democide 1946-1999 is still almost three times these total combat dead. Perhaps this democide is still impossible to absorb. Then consider this. If laid head to toe, and each of the corpses is assumed to be 5 feet tall (1.52 meters), then the 80,000,000 victims would circle the globe (at the equator) three times. Three times!

However, as pointed out, democide has been declining sharply. What accounts for this? As should be clear from the above, the first reason is that the deadly totalitarian version of communism is all but dead. It now only exists in North Korea. And China and Cuba have moved to a more authoritarian, less-totalitarian, version. A second reason is that democracy--the regime least prone to commit democide, especially against its own citizens--has grown throughout the world. From perhaps a dozen or so countries in 1946 the number of democracies had grown to 114 out of 191 states in 1995. The age of totalitarianism is over and that of democracy is upon us. To my knowledge no liberal democratic government has committed democide since 1987 (in terms of civil and political rights, neither Russia nor Turkey is yet a liberal democracy), which is predictable from the this web site's theme: power kills--the less power, the less the democide.

Source

If we look at the statistics and history of the past century than the spreading of Democracy, no matter how violent, saves lives.

Agit8ted,

The world is a big nasty harsh place with more than enough suffering to go around for everyone. I wish there was no violence, no competition for resources, no political conflict, but there is. There always has been, and always will be.

Why do you focus so intently on the US and Iraq?

Why not the genocide in Sudan?

The suffering of the citizens of North Korea?

The treatment of Chenyan muslims by Russia?

The plight of the Basques in Spain?

Were you as fervent when President Clinton bombed the Balkans and innocents died?

When Britain bombed the Falkland Islands?

Will you decry China when they invade Taiwan? Or will you demonize the US for collateral damage in China during retaliation?

Do you criticize the muslim killing muslim in Iraq which occurs daily? Its not US soldiers kidnapping and beheading fighting age men by the dozens every week.

Do you criticize arabs killing jews in malls with suicide vests?

Jews killing Palestinaians?

Are you outraged by human slavery that still occurs in Africa and Asia.


Why just Bush! Cheney! Rusmfeld! US! US! US!?

One outrage does not excuse another and I'm not attempting to excuse anything.
Just pointing out the human condition and that the bad old US is no better or worse than any one else. We just have more at stake and a bigger burden to carry which equates to more engagement and more world wide exposure.










[edit on 11/15/2006 by darkbluesky]

[edit on 11/15/2006 by darkbluesky]

Originally posted by darkbluesky
Why do you focus so intently on the US and Iraq?

Maybe because of all the nations currently engaged in illigeal millitary actions, the US is the only one claiming to be doing it for the cause of spreading peace and democracy?

Or maybe simply because the US should just know better...

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by jaguarmike

Deltaboy- I think what you, and those sharing your viewpoint, need to ask them selves is "cui bono" (who benefits?)

Who benefits from troops stationed in South Korea? South Korea maybe? What about troops in Japan? Japan maybe? Who benefits having troops in Kosovo or Bosnia? What do we get from that? You say its about oil, and yet you have yet to mention about the troops in those countries. What is the benefit from having troops in those countries?

I'll leave the answer to someone know knowledgable than myself on that subject. But since you asked me, i'll guess. South Korea is a friend of the US and helping out SK from NK gives us somewhat of a say in the area- so much so that we were the main people being heard during the NK nuke crisis. Obviously nothing came out of that, but if we didn't have so much support from SK we wouldn't have been given as much attention imo.

Putting troops in Bosnia and Kosovo helps show the former USSR we want to help and respect them enough to offer support to US-friendly factions and governments.

That's the benefit. But I believe we were talking about Iraq. That's not an example of having troops in the country, that's an example of completely taking over a country.

Originally posted by BitRaiser

Originally posted by darkbluesky
Why do you focus so intently on the US and Iraq?

Maybe because of all the nations currently engaged in illigeal millitary actions, the US is the only one claiming to be doing it for the cause of spreading peace and democracy?

So its not worthwhile to criticize any nation engaging in what you deem to be an unjust cause, as long as they freely admit their evil deeds?

So don't criticize the Janjaweed in Sudan because they arent claiming to be spreading democracy?

And by the way, the US is spreading democracy in Iraq.

Originally posted by darkbluesky
Agit8ted,

The world is a big nasty harsh place with more than enough suffering to go around for everyone. I wish there was no violence, no competition for resources, no political conflict, but there is. There always has been, and always will be.

Why do you focus so intently on the US and Iraq?

Why not the genocide in Sudan?

The suffering of the citizens of North Korea?

The treatment of Chenyan muslims by Russia?

The plight of the Basques in Spain?

Were you as fervent when President Clinton bombed the Balkans and innocents died?

When Britain bombed the Falkland Islands?

Will you decry China when they invade Taiwan? Or will you demonize the US for collateral damage in China during retaliation?

Do you criticize the muslim killing muslim in Iraq which occurs daily? Its not US soldiers kidnapping and beheading fighting age men by the dozens every week.

Do you criticize arabs killing jews in malls with suicide vests?

Jews killing Palestinaians?

Are you outraged by human slavery that still occurs in Africa and Asia.


Why just Bush! Cheney! Rusmfeld! US! US! US!?

One outrage does not excuse another and I'm not attempting to excuse anything.
Just pointing out the human condition and that the bad old US is no better or worse than any one else. We just have more at stake and a bigger burden to carry which equates to more engagement and more world wide exposure.










[edit on 11/15/2006 by darkbluesky]

[edit on 11/15/2006 by darkbluesky]

Can't you see?! The reason he isn't singling these out is because the War on Terror is the most massive and most impactful movement we have seen mainsteam thus far in our lives. The outcomes will be truly magnificent (in a bad way): NWO, New World Order

Your average soldier does not know the crime he does. The majority of people are good, including our brave. The fight is not against them, it is against the LIE that has been fed to them since before bootcamp, since childhood.

This issue surpases party lines

It doesn't matter if you're democrat, republican, conservative, or liberal. The fight is against the NWO. The NWO is a shadow. You won't be able to attack it at the top. You have to expose truth at the bottom. This is the war plan: Truth

Men like Alex Jones and Aaron Russo will be hailed as true patriots one day, and all of the world will remember 1776. Do your part, expose truth eveywhere.

I think this is the first time I have felt compelled to post on a thread that was about a politics. I like to stay out of them as the quagmire is deep and quick to pull you in.

Originally posted by darkbluesky
Most of Iraq is as peaceful, sanitary, economically active, and safe as it ever was. The sensationalized video images fed to you on a daily basis from the Sunni strongholds around Baghdad show only one very small part of the big picture.

This is quite nonsense. Please post some easily dated examples of this 'peaceful' Iraq. Equally, tell me why those sensationalised video images of a country that only has lost (at minimum) 100,000 souls in the last 3 years, can ever be 'only part of the big picture'?

It is. After absorbing what happened to us in 2001 there was too much fear and uncertainty regarding what would happen next if AlQaeda were supplied w/ nuclear or chemical weapons by Iraq which the US and many mnay other nations believed Iraq possesed.

Let's say that this is true. Why now, are those leaders saying that this was a mission to bring democracy to Iraq?

Untrue - there was evidence that the UN saw and shared with all members of the Security Council. It was hidden, destroyed or moved to Syria while Sadaam delayed and delayed and delayed.

Please, can you produce one credible piece of evidence for this comment. You say it was either this, or that, perhaps something else; mere conjecture. If the UN and US knew it was in Syria, would they now be asking for Syria's help? No matter which side you take, unsubstantiated claims are damaging to your argument.

Don't buy all the propaganda - There were some not so altruistic reasons for going to Iraq...like ensuring the free flow of oil at market prices, establishing a permanent US presence in the region, and yes, even to demonstrate to the Arab/Islamic world that we would not absorb the kind of attacks perpetrted on us on 9/11/01 without serious retaliation. But enriching companies and individuals and hiking approval ratings were not the goals.

If this were true, why were the majority of contracts (3/4 of those worth over $5million) offered to only coalition based companies, and why was Halliburton awarded the reconstruction of the oil infrastructure unchallenged as reported by Reuters?

Please, correct me where I am wrong, while I attempt to find some leverage to pull myself back out.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

IF you don’t like people constantly ridiculing America, then grow some balls, stand up... remove this regime that has hijacked your country for gods sake.

What would you have us do?

I used to feel this way about other countries.... like Iraq for instance. I used to feel that if the Kurds didn't like being killed by the tens of thousands they should just rise up against Saddam and kill him or whatever.

I have learned that this is unrealistic. There is very little, if anything, the people of any nation can do to influence the major decisions made by their government.

So I ask you, what "balls" should we grow? What do you suggest we do to remove this regime?

You have to watch for people that have strong socialist tendencies pretending to be for justice and openness of government and honesty when they would support regimes that do the opposite. All the same the great problem in the US is that its foreign policy has become under the control of a foreign country and as such it lacks credibility in the world.

It is time to rectify this and make the US about its original values and focus on the needs of the US instead of international socialism, the UN and especially Israel.

This change cannot happen too soon I fear.

For a start, achnowledge the reality behind your government, 911, Iraq and the continued ignorance.

There's enough people in America who take what they hear to be gospel.
They dont think about it, they dont look at the evidence..

" Well bush said we were attacked by arabs, and it was a surprise... so... he must be right "

IE

Back in 2002 I was having a convo with my boss.

I was all eager to see the extent of a major military conflict based on world peace.
HE laughed at me, and said Iraq has nothing... they will surrender the first sight of american forces...

I scoffed, and said rubbish.

A government wouldnt DARE lie on such a scale to the whole world... because it would be obvious in the end how much they lied, and it would be political suicide.
He said perhaps.. But there I was certain of myself.. and that the world superpower wouldnt dare lie... to the world..

"Iraq must be armed to the teeth, the worlds superpower declares they have evidence of such arms, And it is to big a lie, to much ability for the truth to be uncovered that surely.. they wouldnt even Attempt to dupe the world into following." i said.....


How wrong was I.

Thinking the world and the citizens of America would take a stand IF the lies were proven.

4 years on, after its emerged how niave I was and how false the allegations were..

there are people still willing to take everything the government says as truth.

I was only 18 at the time... my immaturity and small time on this planet didnt give me the understanding, perception and brainpower to conclude the reality.

How many 30+ yr olds are there here, with all that experience and knowledge whom should know better, and should be able to conclude better than they currently are?

'' well the americans got it wrong, but they had good intentions.. we may of murdered thousands of innocents based on lies... but im sure they'll be honest and tell us everything from now on ''


wow.. I wish I was taking what your taking... that sounds like a good escape from REALITY!


[edit on 15-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by jaguarmike
Can't you see?! The reason he isn't singling these out is because the War on Terror is the most massive and most impactful movement we have seen mainsteam thus far in our lives. The outcomes will be truly magnificent (in a bad way): NWO, New World Order

Then I guess you're not old enough to remember the Soviet Union annexing all of Eastern Europe, the Balkans and much of western Asia, and imprisoning/killing anyone who dissented or clung to their real heritage. Filled the gulags with "political prisoners" shut down all media except state run media, had no real free multi party elections. Spent so much on arms that people couldnt get teh basic comforts of modern life. One country stood up to the USSR and as a result, Russians, Ukaranians, Czhechs, Georgians, Uzhbecks, khazaks, Poles, Germans, Latvians, Lituanians, Astinians, etc, etc, etc, now live very differen lives, much better lives.

Why do people attempt at justifying todays illegial war with conflicts that happens decades ago.
The world is a compeltely different place, trade, relations it makes it DRASTICALLY a different scenario.. the variables are amazingly different.

We're not freeing any country here from a another country.
We're not making the world safer.
We're not helping our allies.

Everything the USA has been involved in, in the past has had atleast some sort of achievable, and justifyable outcome.

Iraq is the only war we have been engaged in where the reason to go to war was fabricated, the reason for staying was fabricated, the truth on the ground was fabricated and the painful reason to go to war, was allowed to mutate.

Now, the USA and Britan are STUCK.. you cant leave now.
You cant even say you've realised, but its to late to do anything, because some of you still havent bloody REALISED the reality of the situation.

Iraq is never going to be a peaceful democratic nation.

America will never be appluaded and respected in this region EVER AGAIN.

Because the arabs on the ground KNOW THE REALITY.
They know saddam had no wmd's.
They know how much oil is in the country.
They know how many innocent civilians are being massacered.. even though the US refuses to do a body count.
They are the ones who are being labeled as terrorists because they chose to DEFEND THEIR HOME!

People should stop looking to the past to make reason out of this mess.

Iraq is the present day war, that the american government lied their way into.
Face up to it!

Originally posted by Woland

Originally posted by darkbluesky
Most of Iraq is as peaceful, sanitary, economically active, and safe as it ever was. The sensationalized video images fed to you on a daily basis from the Sunni strongholds around Baghdad show only one very small part of the big picture.

This is quite nonsense. Please post some easily dated examples of this 'peaceful' Iraq. Equally, tell me why those sensationalised video images of a country that only has lost (at minimum) 100,000 souls in the last 3 years, can ever be 'only part of the big picture'?

Here are some excerpts from Q's and A's w/ Iraqis conducted by the BBC. I'm going to cite the ones that support my statement, but in fairness I'll provide a link so you can read the negative comments as well. Point is there are bright spots - its not all darkness.

The death of one is as bad as the death of 100,000, but 100,000 out of approx. 20 million is about 0.5%. I'd say that qualifies as being a small part of a larger picture. And lets not forget that many of these 100,000 deaths are the result of Suni/Shia conflict.

Q: I am a marine who has served in Iraq. When I was there, I wasn't able to leave our base and see what Iraq is like. Does any one of the commentators envision a day when veterans such as I will be able to visit Iraq as a tourist and be able to explore the country and culture that we fought for?


Essam works at the police training academy in the town of Samawa
Essam: Yes, of course. But you should come to the south of Iraq. Don't go to the North as Baghdad is dangerous and Fallujah is unsafe as well.

But in the south we have water and many ancient and beautiful places that you can visit. It is not a problem.

I feel very safe in my town, where I work with the army. There is a police training academy here too. Just last year during our elections, two Japanese people came. We walked everywhere with them and people would come and say hello to them. They had total freedom of movement.

The north of Iraq is also beautiful. It's really nice country up north in Iraq, which I believe has been virtually independent since 1991.

Question from Laura, Orange, USA, 1135, Iraq time (0735 GMT)
Q: To Samir Ali: Would you prefer security under Saddam's rule to the present unpredictability of today's situation?


Samir: That's a great question and difficult to answer. Security is a very important issue in our lives, but Saddam's time was a very dark era. I think we need to pass through this bad time in order to reach our goal of a good, stable, progressive country.

(0810 GMT)
Q: Do you think Iraq would be safer if the U.S. troops left right now? Why or why not?


Samir: No, I don't think it would be safer. There would be a civil war. But they [the US troops] are dealing with the situation in the wrong way. They should leave the cities and the roads, get away from our homes.

They are trying to enter our homes and search our homes. We don't know why - we don't believe their excuses for it. But we need them to support our country. Iraq needs the Americans to get out of this bad situation.

I think most Iraqis hate them, dislike them - but they're not afraid of them, I don't think.


Read more about Samir Ali
Zeynab: No, I don't think so. Not now. If they go now Iraq wouldn't be safer. The Iraqi army and the police can't maintain security in this stage, they won't be able to do the job.


Read more about Zeynab
Mateen: No, I think it would be a fatal mistake for allied forces to withdraw from Iraq immediately without preparation and making sure the country is strong enough to cope with security problems. I assure you, the country would separate immediately into several entities - it would be worse than Somalia. I don't think the US and UK would make that mistake.

If they left, everyone would be in trouble, the country would separate. The current government is not strong enough at the moment to control the security situation and face the security threat. Iraq has a very difficult geopolitical position.

(1000 GMT)
Q: Women were relatively well-off under Saddam. Do you worry that the "new Iraq" will be very conservative, and perhaps restrict women's rights? How are the children coping with the all the violence going on around them? Do you think that their generation will look back on this and feel bitter towards the US and their allies?

Mateen: For my children, the situation here in Kurdistan is very calm, we are not being affected directly by the violence. It's like life in the US, UK, any European country, except the level of services is not as good as there or even comparable.

But from a security point of view, we don't have those kind of problems. We are in a safe part of the country, everyone is free, there are no thieves, you can leave your door open, travel at any time, go for picnics, go shopping late at night - so our children are not witnessing those kinds of problems.

People have lost interest in the [security] situation [elsewhere] - they don't want to watch those bad things on the TV. Of course we are very sorry about what is happening. Many of my wife's relatives are living in those parts of the country, and their situation is very difficult. They are living in a kind of prison and their children are traumatised.

But remember we ourselves have gone through this kind of situation - not for a few years but for 40 or 50 years from the time I was born. We have been displaced, we have been immigrants, we have seen bombings. So my children were already adapted to that.

BBC Article

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Why do people attempt at justifying todays illegial war with conflicts that happens decades ago.
The world is a compeltely different place, trade, relations it makes it DRASTICALLY a different scenario.. the variables are amazingly different.

We're not freeing any country here from a another country.
We're not making the world safer.
We're not helping our allies.

This is a chess game not checkers, more than likley a lot of our meddeling in ME has to do with being able to supply ourselves with energy and deny countries like the growing super power that is China. Besides how is the US supposed to help anyone if we can't support ourselves. Therefore by your very own standards this is a justifiable war. Alot of people hated vietnam and rightfully so but in the end, we did achieve what we set out too. The spread of communism in that part of the world stalled and sputtered after that war. After cambodia the spread fell short because of US intervention in vietnam. (i am not here to debate whether vietnam is justified). The point is that there is stradegy as to when we help others and when we must help ourselves. In the case of Iraq i believe that the administration felt we could help ourselves and help the Iraqi people at the same time while giving ourselves an opporunity to deny energy from the region to countries like china if the need ever arised. Now there were a lot of blunders that happened in the war like disbanding the Iraqi army. However, i think the intentions were clearly justified.

This is not a justifyable war for energy
Had the right man been elected, we'd be focusing on saving our planet and making renewable sources of energy.

Imagine all the $$ put into this iraqi war had of been invested in renewable energy, and pollution saving techniques or to save our planet...

it would be a lot different after 6yrs.

And even so,

Saying a war, saying the slaughter of thousands of people is justifyable if it provides your with energy deserves to be compared to HILTER!


[edit on 15-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

www.iraqbodycount.net...

how about we ask these 47000 odd Iraqis, that have been CONFIRMED slaughtered wether they are thankful, and appreciative of the democracy America has FORCED on this nation.

Gee, thats right.. they are dead.. in mass graves.. throughout the country.
Some tortured, some beheaded.. some riddled with bullets.. some in pieces...

If you go back to 2003,

Had the president of said

" We have just learnt that saddam has NO WMD's What so ever... but we feel it nessecary to continue our mission, to invade Iraq and bring democracy to this country ''

Would you of followed then?

More than likely not.

So why are you prepared to follow now?

Ahh, because your already involved, and stuck.. and rather than say hey were were wrong.. we shouldnt be here.. we are not stuck and need a way out..you'd rather save face and say

'' we are here to bring you democracy... stuff the WMD's.. democracy is what all this blood & carnage is all about "

Saddam mightny of been the 'nicest' dictator..
But are there really that many leaders out there that are any better?
There's a dozen leaders who murder and torture.
And who deseve to be removed.

The Reason you went in, wasnt for WMD's.
America wouldnt dare of sent its soilders, face first into a bio/chem war.
Gullability at its best if you believe your government was willing to do this.

Your not their to FREE the people.
If you were, you wouldnt be building bases, and fortifications there.

Your not there because of the THREAT posed to your nation.
Because theyre are greater threats appearing all over the horrizon at the moment, that you dare not touch because they are 'too much' of a threat.

Do you even watch president bush in media interviews?

Dont you notice his body language?
His responses?
How he cant look people in the eye, he has to fidgit, and think of his words..
only to say the same bs over and over

'' free the people, till the jobs done, democratic elected government, american security, 911, 911, alqaeda, 911, 911, saddam ''

Im amazed at every interview..
Its like he gets a lolly from his admininstartion every time he mentions certain catch phrases. Never mind they have nothing to do with the question.. it promotes his government.

When the elections are suspicous
The Trigger ( 911 ) is clouded in secrecy
The evidence is proven to be fabricated
The Media is proven to be bias
The Leader refuses to testify under Oath
The army refuses to do body counts
When the PUBLIC YOUR SAVING believe your curropt and stealing
When the PUBLIC YOUR DEFENDING believe your curropt and lying

It baffles me that there is still a minority whom firmly believe all the above is false..
and that this government is honest, legitimate, upfront, open and willing to sacrifice corporate dollars for the better-ment of the American people, and foreign nations.

Frankly, Im glad its only Americans who think this way,
Seems the rest of the world understand the truth, its just americans who are obvioulsy falling behind in having an ability to reason with logic.

Originally posted by darkbluesky

Originally posted by jaguarmike
Can't you see?! The reason he isn't singling these out is because the War on Terror is the most massive and most impactful movement we have seen mainsteam thus far in our lives. The outcomes will be truly magnificent (in a bad way): NWO, New World Order

Then I guess you're not old enough to remember the Soviet Union annexing all of Eastern Europe, the Balkans and much of western Asia, and imprisoning/killing anyone who dissented or clung to their real heritage. Filled the gulags with "political prisoners" shut down all media except state run media, had no real free multi party elections. Spent so much on arms that people couldnt get teh basic comforts of modern life. One country stood up to the USSR and as a result, Russians, Ukaranians, Czhechs, Georgians, Uzhbecks, khazaks, Poles, Germans, Latvians, Lituanians, Astinians, etc, etc, etc, now live very differen lives, much better lives.

The Cold War and what resulted because of it is nowhere in size to the current War on Terrorism and all that it will do. The Cold War was obviously a massive step for NWO, but nowhere as big as the current one. Because of the state-sponsored 9/11, we have seen Habeus Corpus burned, the Constitution ripped to shreds, the UK throwing out their freedoms to where London now resembles some horror out of 1984 by Orwell, enemy combatant labels with broad criteria of labeling, possible pre-emptive strike against Iran and Syria, torture, paranoia of security globally, Isreal invading and leveling Lebanon, lies, and murder. I'll give you that this is more effective for the luminaries because it's the next move in the chess game closer to check-mate-> but you agree to my point by bringing up the Cold War and discrediting me because I don't have high cholesterol and debt exceeding 20k.

]Where's your head at? You ruin your point by bringing up this suppressive comment :-)

This is the reshaping of the Globe- and what will ultimately call for the U.N. to step down and the NWO to take it's place. Me young? If you're 50 i'll give you that, but study the history of your father's time- and you'll start to get a picture of where all the madness started from: 1913

If the trend isn't stopped by exposing truth, you'll see a police state here in America in full operation by 2012. Expect things to get even more worse after that. No freedoms- forcibly drugged- treated like cattle. You'll be living like a patient in a mental hospitol- except your guard will be a man with an M4 assault rifle with all the newest ribbons and fancy rail trinkets If I see anymore people with that crap on their weapons i'm going to barf... weapons are turning into something Martha Stuart from hell designed- but with that snide joke aside, EXPOSE TRUTH!



Agit8dChop- I respect you more than you know, you have cojones! Keep it up!

[edit on 15-11-2006 by jaguarmike]