Why is terrorism, causing American outrage?

BOOOOOOOOOOORRRRING! CAn't you come up with anything useful? Speaking of broken records - YOU, sir, are IT! The same old tired, boring rants from the resident Brit who takes it upon itself to criticize the US.

You wanna know why? Because we can! We can become outraged because we can kick anyone's ass at anytime and there is nothing that YOU can do about it! Now quit yer whining and snivelling and use that useless lump between yer ears for something other than criticizing the U.S.!!! God, you are insufferable!

Originally posted by kozmo
BOOOOOOOOOOORRRRING! CAn't you come up with anything useful? Speaking of broken records - YOU, sir, are IT! The same old tired, boring rants from the resident Brit who takes it upon itself to criticize the US.

You wanna know why? Because we can! We can become outraged because we can kick anyone's ass at anytime and there is nothing that YOU can do about it! Now quit yer whining and snivelling and use that useless lump between yer ears for something other than criticizing the U.S.!!! God, you are insufferable!

Your the reason why most of the world is anti american. Especially with an antiquated
attitude like that. Bet you dont even own a passport.

911 was a horrible act,

but yet your all so surprised when someone in the world is prepared to strike you down, when you express your dominating views such as this.


and for the record, I am neither a brit, nor a british resident.

OK, so let me get this straight. Your opening post for this thread is saying that terrorism doesnt exist? Or that its a created "boogeyman?" Just want to clear that one up before I go any further with what I have to say.

Originally posted by deltaboy
Well that makes no sense, why do we send troops in countries that don't have oil as well? Like Bosnia, Kosovo, South Korea, etc. Must be some conspiracy.

BeEcause back in the days of those conflicts... the current regime wasnt in power.
Telecommunications meant that it wasnt as easy as it is now to hide the truth, and promote your propoganda.
Because back in those days, people actually wanted to STOP terrism, instead of allowing it to gain the upper hand.
And because back in those days, there was an ACTUAL REASON for those conflicts.

Because someone invaded someone else, or because someone was attempting to eradicate a race.

TODAY?

I didnt see Iraq invade anyone in 2002.
I didnt see Iraq activley murdering thousands of another race in the streets.
I didnt see Iraq lobbing missles at a western ally.

Yet we invaded.

I DO see Nkorea threatening allies.
I DO see Nkorea building nukes.
I DO NOT SEE oil in Nkorea.

Your right it isnt a conspiracy.. its pretty damn clear to me!

Originally posted by ludaChris
OK, so let me get this straight. Your opening post for this thread is saying that terrorism doesnt exist? Or that its a created "boogeyman?" Just want to clear that one up before I go any further with what I have to say.

No terrorism is real,

But when the government ALLOWS a terrorist act to occur, when they have knowledge it is coming...
Just so they can promote a course of action that benefits their corporate friends...

that is a whole different story.

Especailly when none of the terrorists were Iraqi.


[edit on 15-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by kozmo
BOOOOOOOOOOORRRRING! CAn't you come up with anything useful? Speaking of broken records - YOU, sir, are IT! The same old tired, boring rants from the resident Brit who takes it upon itself to criticize the US.

You wanna know why? Because we can! We can become outraged because we can kick anyone's ass at anytime and there is nothing that YOU can do about it! Now quit yer whining and snivelling and use that useless lump between yer ears for something other than criticizing the U.S.!!! God, you are insufferable!

Just for the record... your not kicking anyones ass in Iraqi any more.

Accepting for the innocent mothers..... fathers..... sons..... daughters....aunites.....uncles..... and so forth.

Your quite content with sitting in the greenzone and sending out patrols when every something happens... only to be setup in ambushes or lead into traps with bombs.

you may have the power, the strength and the ability...
but that doesnt mean anything when your driving in your hummer, down that dustry street, and a single iraqi hiding behind a building presses a button and ends 3 american citizens lives with one crude device.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
BeEcause back in the days of those conflicts... the current regime wasnt in power.
Telecommunications meant that it wasnt as easy as it is now to hide the truth, and promote your propoganda.
Because back in those days, people actually wanted to STOP terrism, instead of allowing it to gain the upper hand.
And because back in those days, there was an ACTUAL REASON for those conflicts.

People wanted to stop terrorism? Excuse me but we been trying to stop terrorism for a very long time. Even under this administration is doing the same.

TODAY?

I didnt see Iraq invade anyone in 2002.
I didnt see Iraq activley murdering thousands of another race in the streets.
I didnt see Iraq lobbing missles at a western ally.

Yet we invaded.

I DO see Nkorea threatening allies.
I DO see Nkorea building nukes.
I DO NOT SEE oil in Nkorea.

Your right it isnt a conspiracy.. its pretty damn clear to me!

We invaded Afghanistan, and yet Afghanistan didn't invade anyone, Afghanistan didn't actively murdered thousands of another race in the streets, nor they lob missiles at a western ally, so its really irrelevant. I don't see oil in the Phillipines, and yet we send troops there. How about Haiti or Liberia? And o yes, as most people have said, our troops are stretched thin so going against NK is pretty much a bad idea right now. I doubt South Korea would support it since they prefer Sunshine policy, so we pretty much in a bind to invade NK since South Korea may refuse access to any land invasion preparations.

Originally posted by forestlady
Agit8edchop, I commend you for your insight and your compassion towards your fellow human beings. I have been ranting about the exact same things as you do in your OP. And I'm an American. I cry whenever I see pictures of the Statue of Liberty now. My country, all the wonderful history, the brave men and women who fought the Revolution, and our sacred Constitution and Bill of Rights, all of it, pretty much destroyed. And the President of the US, who has taken an oath to uphold the Constititon, had the gall to say "The Constitution is just a godamned piece of paper".
I want my country back, the one that stood for good values, equality for all humans. Thank you for having the courage to speak out and try to awaken the sleeping dead that inhabit America.

Originally posted by jaguarmike
Agit8dChop, you're back to being awesome again! Well said- you need to send that in to publishers that would stir up the pot! Bravo!

cheers people, maybe we do have hope if some people of todays generation can pass on morals, values and proper ethics to their childeren.
Good men died in ww2 to create the world we have lived in for the past 60yrs, the world of peace, love and admiration.
Yet it only took 6 yrs for us to turn the clock back, to the 30's.

Sadly though, the fuse has been lit.. and it will be even harder to see the light, when this illegial war breaks out in a major regional conflict.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
BeEcause back in the days of those conflicts... the current regime wasnt in power.
Telecommunications meant that it wasnt as easy as it is now to hide the truth, and promote your propoganda.
Because back in those days, people actually wanted to STOP terrism, instead of allowing it to gain the upper hand.
And because back in those days, there was an ACTUAL REASON for those conflicts.

People wanted to stop terrorism? Excuse me but we been trying to stop terrorism for a very long time. Even under this administration is doing the same.

TODAY?

I didnt see Iraq invade anyone in 2002.
I didnt see Iraq activley murdering thousands of another race in the streets.
I didnt see Iraq lobbing missles at a western ally.

Yet we invaded.

I DO see Nkorea threatening allies.
I DO see Nkorea building nukes.
I DO NOT SEE oil in Nkorea.

Your right it isnt a conspiracy.. its pretty damn clear to me!

We invaded Afghanistan, and yet Afghanistan didn't invade anyone, Afghanistan didn't actively murdered thousands of another race in the streets, nor they lob missiles at a western ally, so its really irrelevant. I don't see oil in the Phillipines, and yet we send troops there. How about Haiti or Liberia? And o yes, as most people have said, our troops are stretched thin so going against NK is pretty much a bad idea right now. I doubt South Korea would support it since they prefer Sunshine policy, so we pretty much in a bind to invade NK since South Korea may refuse access to any land invasion preparations.

your right deltaboy, we've been tyring to stop terrorism for a god damn long time.
So how did we manage to let the biggest act go un-noticed?
We have the ability to stop terrorism,
But in 911's case, it was chosen more beneficial to ALLOW it to happen.

Think about it, if a hand ful of peoeple from different houses on your street told you, someone was preparing to rob you blind while you slept..
would you simply leave your doors unlocked and go about your life without taking the proper safe guards?
And then when they DO rob you blind... would you go on a rampage and beat up someone completely unrelated to that robbery?

We invaded afghanistan because Osama really did plan this.
And when we dclared to the world OSAMA AND ALQAEDA did 911... you think the world would of stood by if we did NOTHING... then ivaded Iraq?
IT would of been to damn obvious.

Why did it take us so long to GET into afghan?
Why can we invade and occupy a whole country... yet we cant detain one man?

Saddam was meant to be this all power menacing threat with wmd's and hordes of troops resulting in a horrific street battle..
yet we still went in their.

Im not saying hitting Nkorea is the right move, but we were willing to send 150,000 troops into a chemical/bio/nuclear war with a nation... we were willing to have 50% casualty rates..

We arent sending anyone into Nkorea becuase they have the ability now to do serious harm and cause major casualties.

Yet, your led to believe we were prepared to send all these men to the same in Iraq?

AS for the Phillipines, and haiti..
Have we activley occupied, and remaining setup?
Did we pump out the propoganda for months and months all stating our point of view on these nations?

No.

And one more thing, your right we did go after afghanistan.
We havent occupied and detained the people.
We went into the mountains, to wipe out the taliban, to wipe out alqaeda..
We're not there to setup shop and occupy afghanistan..

In Iraq, we went into the cities, into the homes.....
Into schools and Office buildings...

America only allows Democracy, when they have the ability to control it.
God forbid a nation thinks for itself and defies the USA's demands.



[edit on 15-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
No terrorism is real,

But when the government ALLOWS a terrorist act to occur, when they have knowledge it is coming...
Just so they can promote a course of action that benefits their corporate friends...

that is a whole different story.

Especailly when none of the terrorists were Iraqi.
[edit on 15-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

Ahh, ok, I get what your saying now. I didnt want to go off typing without knowing what you mean.

But I cant really say I totally agree with you on this issue. I dont believe the 9/11 theories, so I cant and wont go there as an example of the US using terrorism.

Here is a list of Terrorist incidents since 1961. Which ones do you see as examples of the US using terrorism to gain the upper hand(if any are listed)?
Significant Terrorist Incidents: 1961-2003

This is just so I can see where your coming from, and which events you would percieve as a "False-Flag Ops."

Do you see the first World Trade Center attack as the first attempt by the US govt to have an excuse to go to the ME?

Straight of the bat, as for most 911 theories.. I will subscribe to them simply because I believe the government knew of the attacks.
IE Explosives in the WTC.
To me that doesnt add up, if you were getting all that gold out, why would you detonate half way through the heist? and leave the evidence?

But the Pentgaon is definately an issue that needs attention.



As for previous terrorist attacks, to be honest I havent looked at them all.
I dont want to say yay or nay.

Because I wasnt around in those days, and didnt have an interest in international politics.

But In this case...

It has been stated that Iraq was on the agender of the bush admin PRIOR to 911.
It has been stated foreign nations, foreign intellegence agencies, internal agencies all warned that an attack was being planned.

Look what happened after that attack,

we ' accidently ' made all the wrong decisions and ended up in Iraq.. just where the government intending on being before the incident.

I dont beleive Clinton would of allowed terrorists to attack his nation on purpose so he could invade another nation.
I mean, after Oklahoma, and Wtc93.. did you see him invading countries?

No, and why is that?

Because there wasnt enough evidence pointing to a STATE funded op.

Where as in the case of 911, When Afghani alqaeda hit us, we used it as an excuse to invade Iraq.

To me, that just doesnt add up.

But thanks for not hijacking the thread with outside stuff... appreciate it!



[edit on 15-11-2006 by Agit8dChop]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop

your right deltaboy, we've been tyring to stop terrorism for a god damn long time.
So how did we manage to let the biggest act go un-noticed?
We have the ability to stop terrorism,
But in 911's case, it was chosen more beneficial to ALLOW it to happen.

It was chosen? Excuse me but Al Qaeda has attacked America and succeeded successfully even in the 90s, so was those attacks were allowed to benefit those hidden in the shadows?

We invaded afghanistan because Osama really did plan this.
And when we dclared to the world OSAMA AND ALQAEDA did 911... you think the world would of stood by if we did NOTHING... then ivaded Iraq?
IT would of been to damn obvious.

If Osama attacked from Iraq, people would say US invaded that country because of oil and not to get him, so it don't matter in how hard we explained. People even said we invaded Afghanistan because of a pipeline and not to get Osama and his followers.

Why did it take us so long to GET into afghan?
Why can we invade and occupy a whole country... yet we cant detain one man?

Why did it take us about a month to invade Afghanistan, well mostly because it takes the military to move that fast to plan and invade Afghanistan maybe? And also we manage to kill many of his followers and Osama decided to run away into Pakistan so its hard to get to him. Think of it this way, how hard is it to capture the President of the U.S.?

Saddam was meant to be this all power menacing threat with wmd's and hordes of troops resulting in a horrific street battle..
yet we still went in their.

Can't respond to this statement.

Im not saying hitting Nkorea is the right move, but we were willing to send 150,000 troops into a chemical/bio/nuclear war with a nation... we were willing to have 50% casualty rates..

We were? 50% casualty rate out of the 380,000 troops to invade Iraq?

We arent sending anyone into Nkorea becuase they have the ability now to do serious harm and cause major casualties.

No it don't freaking matter, we suffered 40k casualties in the 1950s so its irrelevant on how NK can inflict. The question is, is South Korea and other allies going to support that action? And 25,000 troops is not enough against 1.2 million man army.

AS for the Phillipines, and haiti..
Have we activley occupied, and remaining setup?
Did we pump out the propoganda for months and months all stating our point of view on these nations?

I believe it was war against terrorism in the Phillipines, as the Bush administration has mentioned.

And one more thing, your right we did go after afghanistan.
We havent occupied and detained the people.
We went into the mountains, to wipe out the taliban, to wipe out alqaeda..
We're not there to setup shop and occupy afghanistan..

Define occupation please? Is there a difference between Afghanistan and Iraq on how troops operate?

In Iraq, we went into the cities, into the homes.....
Into schools and Office buildings...

Well gee, we do that in Afghanistan as well, its just that Iraq has more.

I just feel that the 93 bombing was the first terrorist attempt to take down the towers, which failed as you know. And 9/11 was the second attempt which succeeded. I can understand suspicions, with the Gulf of Tonkin incident which very well could have been a Gov't operation to gain the green light to invade Vietnam as some believe. But I cant see it that way because the known objective was to hold the NVA at the North/South border. I cant say I know a whole lot about the US using terrorism, but if you have links send them this way so I can have a look.

And your welcome, I wouldnt want to derail this topic. Terrorism is very interesting to me, theres only one class at my Univ. on it and I've already taken it, wish there were more.

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Good men died in ww2 to create the world we have lived in for the past 60yrs, the world of peace, love and admiration.
Yet it only took 6 yrs for us to turn the clock back, to the 30's.

This is the most ignorant statement I've ever heard, ever. I don't know what world you live in there Agit8dChop but i can guarantee it ain't the same world i am in. Allow me to educate.

From 1945 and up to 1987, about 76,000,000 people have been murdered in cold blood by one regime or another, around thirteen times the number of Jews murdered in the Holocaust. Most of this democide has been done for political reasons (reasons of state or power), but also much of it has been outright genocide (the killing of people by virtue of their ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality

Source

Tell me, does that sound like a world of peace, love and admiration? I can't believe that you are so nieve that you want to blame all of the worlds problems on the big bad wolf USA. I think it's time you grow up and understand that mankind can be quite evil, that also includes non-Americans. The fact of the matter is that war has been around since mankind and will be with us for a long time to come.

The fact remains that if it wasn't for the USA this world wouldn't be nearly the same as it is now, it would be much much worse. Sure America has had her blunders but she is what holds any peace this world knows together.

Here is an image of major conflicts around the world since WWII,

Conflict Map source

Did the USA gain anything after the WTC93?
Did we end up embroiled in an international war, which is making money for the powers that make the decisions on war?

Alqaeda has attacked, your right.. and you'd think after learning all about this group after the 93wtc.. we'd of atleast understood the threat is REAL.. instaed of ignoring it, and brushing of the threats of 911 .. atleast a sane, decent man whom had his CITIZENS interests in mind would of...

IF, we are not in a world of IF's.

Osama DIDNT ATTACK FROM IRAQ.
He attacked from Afghanistan.. which is WHY we went in there.
We went into IRAQ because we had 'evidence' that theyre wmd's were a threat to us..
IT turned out there was no WMD's, thus there was no evidence.

I dont understand where you going with this?
"If Osama attacked from iraq?"

HE didnt, so why bother using it as justification?
The president, whom is guarded 24/7 and keeps his location secret, is different from a sick man using a cane walking about the mountains.

Especially when you have satelites, jets, marines, uav's looking for him.
And it took us a lot longer than 30days from 911 to get into Afghanistan.
Why did we not use proper military abilities and SURROUND him when we had him cornered.. doesnt that appear Strange to you?

Yes, the propoganda before Iraq predicted a 50% casualty rate in the street battles that were going to erupt in baghdad, look it up.

the 50's was 50years ago mate, it wasnt the day of technology, accords, peace treaties international relations and trade.

In the 50's a country activley INVADED Another country. Much like the USA is doing now, and the world agreed that this haneous act wasnt justified. again, much like the world agrees now!

We had a REASON To send those men to war, a JUSTIFIED reason.
In Iraq, again we do not!

War against terrorism means nothing, when the government allows terrorism to happen.

Aghan and Iraq?.. yes theres a big difference.

1. Alqaeda came from Afghan.
2. Iraq had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT
3. Where are the BULK of our forces, yet out of Iraq and Alqaeda, who's hit us the most?
4. Out of the 2 men we had as priority, whom have we captured? Osama or Saddam, and again whom planned 911?
5. Terrorists trained and rallied from Afghan, In Iraq we have creeated them by murdering there families/friends
6. We hadnt been in Afghan before, there fore we didnt know its potential, yet we left Iraq in devistation, totally cut off and obselete after 1991GW... yet got all our info on the country wrong!

There's a long list of differences.

Why do you think the world doesnt want to touch Iraq.. yet we have allies in Afghan willing to take the deaths with us?

The world understands the threat that alqaeda posed from afghan.. the world never believed Iraq was the threat, and now look at how many people are stnading with America on the Iraqi issue.

And boy, look who was right!

Originally posted by ludaChris
I just feel that the 93 bombing was the first terrorist attempt to take down the towers, which failed as you know. And 9/11 was the second attempt which succeeded. I can understand suspicions, with the Gulf of Tonkin incident which very well could have been a Gov't operation to gain the green light to invade Vietnam as some believe. But I cant see it that way because the known objective was to hold the NVA at the North/South border. I cant say I know a whole lot about the US using terrorism, but if you have links send them this way so I can have a look.

And your welcome, I wouldnt want to derail this topic. Terrorism is very interesting to me, theres only one class at my Univ. on it and I've already taken it, wish there were more.

Man Id love to be studying it at Uni...
thats an idea, I might look up some classes.
Working 2 jobs kinda doesnt give me much time... n im making a book too.. so maybe i should continue studying in my own time.. at work!

I agree that terrorists activley planned, and executed wtc93 and 911.
wtc93 we didnt understand the information at hand, we didnt see it coming.
But 911, we should of realised that the threats are indeed real, they hit us before.. they have the will to hit us again.
The government didnt need to do anything, accept sit back.. man peopel at the airport to allow these ' suspicous arabs with dodgy paperwork ' to be given access..
then watch them, demand all agencies do not interfere with the national security aspect of investigating suspicous arabs.

These terrorists entered the USA with paperwork that was so dodgy, so mis written.. alarms would of gone off there and then. Especially since they used names on the watch list.

Who knew to remove all the Gold from the WTC ?
Who knew to place stock of on the right companies ?

The Government knew an attack was coming using airliners, by these men.
more importantly, people knew the specifics enough to get into government gold reserves, and to place stock on major corporations.

Originally posted by JackJuice

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Good men died in ww2 to create the world we have lived in for the past 60yrs, the world of peace, love and admiration.
Yet it only took 6 yrs for us to turn the clock back, to the 30's.

This is the most ignorant statement I've ever heard, ever. I don't know what world you live in there Agit8dChop but i can guarantee it ain't the same world i am in. Allow me to educate.

From 1945 and up to 1987, about 76,000,000 people have been murdered in cold blood by one regime or another, around thirteen times the number of Jews murdered in the Holocaust. Most of this democide has been done for political reasons (reasons of state or power), but also much of it has been outright genocide (the killing of people by virtue of their ethnicity, race, religion, or nationality

Source

Tell me, does that sound like a world of peace, love and admiration? I can't believe that you are so nieve that you want to blame all of the worlds problems on the big bad wolf USA. I think it's time you grow up and understand that mankind can be quite evil, that also includes non-Americans. The fact of the matter is that war has been around since mankind and will be with us for a long time to come.

The fact remains that if it wasn't for the USA this world wouldn't be nearly the same as it is now, it would be much much worse. Sure America has had her blunders but she is what holds any peace this world knows together.

Here is an image of major conflicts around the world since WWII,

Conflict Map source

sigh orite you caught me out on a genralisation.

Hows about the WESTERN WORLD?
IE Europe.

After ww2 ended with the bomb, the world lived in a new era.
An Era of inability to perform such haneous acts un attended by the world arena.
We created the UN To intervene in serious situations, and since the 40's its been relativley useful.
It hasnt solved the issues, but its brought international parties to HELP the issue.

Yet, in 6yrs of this admin, we manged to mute the UN, go against world opinion, and Illegially invade and occupy anotehr country.
And the US isnt some small time african nation of rebels...
its the world super power, the country the world is meant to look to for peace, stability and guidence.

Something real history scholars have known for a long time.. The reasons and causes for a war has nothing to do with what the war is fought for.

Obviously, the reason for the Iraq war is oil. Not to insure a cheap supply of oil, but to insure the profits of a multinational coporation. Curiously, when GW Bush worked in the oil industry, he was quite cordial with Osama Bin Laden, Muhammed Kharsi, and many members of the Taliban Government.

The first war against Iraq was carefully orchestrated by skillfull manipulation of the media and the UN security council, to provide a plausible reason for for invading Iraq. Kuwait was pretty much controlled by Phillips Petroleum, and Iraq was not. While a decade long war raged between Iraq and Iran, Kuwait and BP stole millions of barrels of oil from Iraq, and loaned the proceeds to both Iraq and Iran to keep the war going. After the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq pled its case before the UN world court, and the court decided in favor of Iraq. The world court and the UN security council gave permission for Iraq to occupy and stop oil production in the Kuwaiti oilfields near the border for as long as it took for Iraq to bring it's oil production back up to the level that matched the Kuwaiti oil production. This was played down in the American media to the degree that most Americans were never aware of the UN World court decision.

When Iraq invaded Kuwait to take the oil fields, The American airwaves were full of the news of atrocities the Iraqi soldiers had alledgely commited against the Kuwaiti people. In senate investigations, one young Kuwaiti girl testified under oath to having witnessed Iraqi soldiers killing Kuwaiti babies in a hospital. ( The girl turned out to be a Kuwaiti princess, who had been in college in the US and had not been in Kuwait in over 2 years. )

This set the stage for the demonization of Saddam Hussein. and 10 years later, after being fed a diet of anti Islam and Anti Saddam propaganda, Americans readily believed that he wanted to destroy America and were willing to jump at the chance to "liberate" Iraq, and bring democracy to the "oppressed victims of an evil dictator".

It becomes apparent to many that several covert attempts were made to overthrow Hussein, and they all failed. This time an overt action succeeded. And they attempted to place Muhammed Kharsi in control of the new government. (Now, Where did I hear that name before??)

The recent mid-term elections saw the loss of the control of the republican party in the US. A lot of this is because American people are starting to realize that the republican party intended to keep America involved in this war, that was built on lies. The people are hopefully starting to realize that, by sending more soldiers to Iraq, were are making more enemies that will side with the terrorists.

There are two documentaries on DVD all americans should watch. "Fahrenheit 911" and "The Control Room". Both will make you think. Both will make you angry, whether you agree or disagree with the war.

So.. Why do Americans go to war? As a people, we are trained from an early age to e lazy. Not just physically lazy, but mentally lazy. Most Americans, by the time that finish high school, are not confident in their own ability to decide for themselves. They believe the lies of the corporatoins that want to sell them things. They never question the laws, they never question authority. They trust the media to tell them what think. Add the government flexes its control over the media. Of course the Multination Corporations control the American government.

We are not a free people. We just want to believe that we are.

[edit on 15-11-2006 by niklaus]

Originally posted by Agit8dChop
Look, obviously people get sick of hearing the same stuff over and over, fair enough. and I know I am guilty of doing this, fair be it.

But... you don’t get the international view.

You turn on the news and see daily reports of murders of fathers and sons, women and children being blown up.. American solders being investigated for Raping and murdering or torturing.

Not factual - There have been instances of American soldiers being responsible for unacceptable and inexcusable atrocities against Iraqis, but not on a daily basis. Most of the murders you are talking about are the result of Suni vs. Shia violence as they struggl efo rcontrol of a country w/o a dictator for the firts time in 3o years. Also out of revenge on the part of the shia.

You see sewage running down the streets, with dogs chewing on carcasses.. shops boarded up... people starving, thirsty and without power.

Most of Iraq is as peaceful, sanitary, economically active, and safe as it ever was. The sensationalized video images fed to you on a daily basis from the Sunni strongholds around Baghdad show only one very small part of the big picture.

Then you see President Bush, standing front and centre with that smirk on his face, denying the obvious truth... while spouting rhetoric to further his position.

Saying the same lies, over and over, and over, and over..
its a Brocken record... its a setup..
the questions he is asked, the answers he gives.. its an absolute farce.
I just shake my head and cannot believe we as people are standing for this.

The magnitude of your hatred for President Bush is abundantly clear. I think much of your passion on this subject is based on this personal hatred.

I then shake my head at people who say TERRORISM is causing all the issues...
Terrorism is not making your president do these things.

It is. After absorbing what happened to us in 2001 there was too much fear and uncertainty regarding what would happen next if AlQaeda were supplied w/ nuclear or chemical weapons by Iraq which the US and many mnay other nations believed Iraq possesed.

Innocent people, families.. men and women who have lived for 30yrs are being forced from their homes, are being shot at, blown up.. kidnapped, raped, murdered and tortured...

why?

Because GW Felt Iraq was a threat.

yes, the US went Iraq to remove Saddam because it was beleived he was a threat. NOT BECAUSE ANYONE THOUGHT HE WAS BEHIND 9-11 like many like to say to cloud the issue. There were references to possible contact w/ Alqueda but 99% of the stated reason for going to iraq was to prevent Sadamm from producing and supplying WMD to Islamic terrorist organizations.

There has been suffering on the part of many innocent Iraqi's. It's sad and unfair but it wouldn't be happening at anywhere near the level it's occuring if Iranian backed Shia militias were not engaged in a guerilla battle with the Sunis and Americans to try to establish an Iranian backed puppet governmement in Iraq.

Now .. fair enough.
If Iraq was a threat.. then.. collateral damage would be understandable.

But where was the threat?

Think people, he said over and over and over and over that they had a plethora of EVIDENCE that Iraq was a threat to the USA.

It turned out there was no threat what so ever.

So they lied to you, they had NO EVIDENCE what so ever.. How do you have evidence of something that DOESNT EXIST?

Untrue - there was evidence that the UN saw and shared with all members of the Security Council. It was hidden, destroyed or moved to Syria while Sadaam delayed and delayed and delayed.

Why do people expect me to speak positively about a nation that commits such atrocities?

We don't but we have the right to respond to your verbal attacks.

Do I like AMERICA? yes.. its a lovely country and for most the people I met are wonderful. You guys really are the worlds best chance at happiness...

Thanks for that admission.

But your government?
Jesus... all this suffering, all this pain, agony and misery... for what?

So Halliburton can make more money?
So GW Bush SNR can become rich of military spending?
So GW Can receive higher ratings?

Don't buy all the propaganda - There were some not so altruistic reasons for going to Iraq...like ensuring the free flow of oil at market prices, establishing a permanent US presence in the region, and yes, even to demonstrate to the Arab/Islamic world that we would not absorb the kind of attacks perpetrted on us on 9/11/01 without serious retaliation. But enriching companies and individuals and hiking approval ratings were not the goals.